Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 12/22/2017 12:04:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2017 12:11:48 AM EDT by Stiles1410]
The rifle was loaded with only a minimum charge of 60gr each time of Pyrodex RS and I was shooting patched round balls. I shot a couple of .495 round balls and a couple .490 round balls with a 10 and 15 thousandths patch. The last shot was a .490 round ball with pillow ticking patch. All patches were lubed with mink oil tallow from track of the wolf. I also swabbed the bore between each shot.

When the failure happened the ball went downrange and struck the target about 1-2 feet low at 50yds.

I could immediately tell something was wrong because the wedge key had no tension and after removing the barrel, the hooked breech was driven hard into the tang and was very hard to remove.

I am confident the rifle was loaded correctly and was not overcharged.
From looking at the patent breech, where it broke, the metal looks somewhat porous and I feel that it may have been a manufacturing defect /stress cracked/ and/or overtightened when installed.

The first couple pics are of the rifle before I cleaned it the last pic is after cleaning

I am sending it off in the morning I requested it be replaced

Attachment Attached File
Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File
Attachment Attached File
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 12:13:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2017 12:15:45 AM EDT by AeroE]
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 12:13:57 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Who made the gun?
View Quote
Investarms for Lyman
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 12:17:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 12:18:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2017 12:19:35 AM EDT by Stiles1410]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Who made the gun?

Did you buy the gun new? Did you try to unscrew the patent breech?

At least the failure was somewhat graceful and the gun didn't turn into shrapnel.
View Quote
Yes brand new, and no I didn't mess with the patent breech at all

and I am glad I still have both eyes and all my fingers
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 12:24:14 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
That's what I guessed. I wonder if the cast breeches get any thing more than a cursory visual inspection.
View Quote
I don't know, but I'm curious as to what they will say. I am somewhat surprised that those parts are even cast to begin with, but I guess that's a cost saver
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 2:41:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2017 2:48:36 AM EDT by 44-40pro]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stiles1410:

I don't know, but I'm curious as to what they will say. I am somewhat surprised that those parts are even cast to begin with, but I guess that's a cost saver
View Quote
Gotta say I am VERY surprised. I have shot thousands of both round ball (in 1-60 twist) and conicals (with the fast twist barrel) in my Lymans going back to the 1980s. With charges from 70-110 grains of powder with never any problems. Couldn't tell you how my breechplugs were made, but always worked fine for me. Please post up the results, I am interested.

ETA: Are you sure you had a clean chamber and the ball completely seated on the charge. It looks like there is a lot of powder left in the breechplug/rearmost portion of the barrel.

For future reference start with a completely clean empty barrel, drop the ram rod in and mark it with a sharpie. Then mark it for each powder charge/ball combo so you can visually verify proper bullet seating.
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 6:19:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2017 6:33:15 AM EDT by Stiles1410]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 44-40pro:

Gotta say I am VERY surprised. I have shot thousands of both round ball (in 1-60 twist) and conicals (with the fast twist barrel) in my Lymans going back to the 1980s. With charges from 70-110 grains of powder with never any problems. Couldn't tell you how my breechplugs were made, but always worked fine for me. Please post up the results, I am interested.

ETA: Are you sure you had a clean chamber and the ball completely seated on the charge. It looks like there is a lot of powder left in the breechplug/rearmost portion of the barrel.

For future reference start with a completely clean empty barrel, drop the ram rod in and mark it with a sharpie. Then mark it for each powder charge/ball combo so you can visually verify proper bullet seating.
View Quote
Yes the chamber was clean, I swabbed with sometimes multiple patches between shots, of course I only got down to the top of the patent breech because of the recess though
What I am questioning is that I possibly fired a second shot after the crack happened without knowing it, that the failure actually developed on the shot before and then I fired the final shot before it completely broke
And yes I am sure the ball was completely seated, I actually did visually check the ramrod when I seated it

I am very surprised as well. The rifle did seem to be made very well, not sure if investarms are just being over cautious and covering their hind end but I did notice their manual had a lower max charge of 90 grains of 2f / 70gr of 3f, vs the 110gr of 2f / 90gr of 3f listed in the Lyman manual as my rifle came with 2 manuals but that shouldn’t have mattered anyway because I was only at the starting end.
I did a google search of the discrepancy in the manuals just for kicks and giggles and it looks to have been that way for years as others have noticed that also, so I’m thinking that that’s just investarms covering their butt
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 6:53:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2017 6:56:25 AM EDT by eracer]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stiles1410:

I don't know, but I'm curious as to what they will say. I am somewhat surprised that those parts are even cast to begin with, but I guess that's a cost saver
View Quote
My thought exactly! It's a lot easier to have defects, and unless the manufacturer uses MPI on every part, there's bound to be some that make it out into the field.

I'm glad you didn't get hurt!
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 8:18:10 AM EDT
That looks like it was brittle, there isn't any flow to the steel, no rupture, it just cracked apart. Did you clean the wood stock? It sure is clean for a fractured barrel if space was left, you'd think one would see soot or something. What are we talking about, 15-18K psi at 60 grains of pyrodex?
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 1:16:26 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fxntime:
That looks like it was brittle, there isn't any flow to the steel, no rupture, it just cracked apart. Did you clean the wood stock? It sure is clean for a fractured barrel if space was left, you'd think one would see soot or something. What are we talking about, 15-18K psi at 60 grains of pyrodex?
View Quote
I did wipe out the stock don’t remember if I did befor taking that pic or not, but it still wasn’t that bad
Link Posted: 12/22/2017 3:21:09 PM EDT
interesting...

investarms are pretty good made guns..The loads are align with what you can shoot out of them for sure..

I like to see what they say too you..

Keep us updated ..

thanks
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 1:08:58 AM EDT
I called today and the lady said it was on the bench now according to the computer, so she put me on hold and went to talk to the guy that had it, came back and said they were going to replace it with a new rifle

Haven’t gotten any tracking info yet

Hopefully next week!
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 1:52:56 AM EDT
Sounds like the company is gonna do right by you. Good deal, and thanks for the update!
Link Posted: 1/20/2018 6:13:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/23/2018 1:35:07 PM EDT
I still have my original .50 caliber Investarms Hawken from 1975. It is still a tack driver. Those folks at Investarms are great people- took personal time to instruct me in some maintenance/repair issues when my lock started wearing down- I have put a lot of venison on the table with that rifle! I suppose a lemon is inevitable on occasion.
Link Posted: 1/28/2018 4:17:08 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dano523:
Could be a fault in the breach plug to start with, or could have been that the ball was not seated all the way down so the BP was compressed tightly together instead.
View Quote
Ball was seated completely as referenced by the ramrod position
Link Posted: 1/28/2018 4:18:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By towgunner11H:
I still have my original .50 caliber Investarms Hawken from 1975. It is still a tack driver. Those folks at Investarms are great people- took personal time to instruct me in some maintenance/repair issues when my lock started wearing down- I have put a lot of venison on the table with that rifle! I suppose a lemon is inevitable on occasion.
View Quote
Would you mind sharing what powder charge you use?
Link Posted: 1/31/2018 7:54:58 AM EDT
Sorry- I just got back from overseas. I use 2F black powder, the Thompson/Center .50 cal pillow ticking patches, and Bore Butter. Accuracy is best at 90 grains. Most of my whitetail hunting was done using 110 grains. Even at 110 grains it will make a large, ragged hole in the target at 50 yards. Casting my memory back, when I first got it in '75, all I used was spit patch, and it shot just about as well.
Link Posted: 2/22/2018 10:59:33 PM EDT
Lyman has announced a recall of several of their products due to this problem.

"Hello Midsouth Shooters Customer,

Lyman Products Corp. (“Lyman”) is voluntarily recalling black powder rifles and pistols due to the
potential of separation in the breech plug. Lyman maintains a safety-first approach, so despite finding
only a few firearms affected and no reported injuries, we are offering a recall program to have the issue
corrected. Lyman regrets the inconvenience but remains committed to the safety of our customers.
475 Smith Street
Middletown, CT 06457
office: 860-632-2020
www.lymanproducts.com

Products:
This recall includes black powder rifles and pistols regardless of caliber (including Deerstalker, Great Plains, Great Plains Hunter, Trade Rifle, Plains Pistol, Black Powder Kits, and replacement barrels; excluding Percussion Left Hand Great Plains and Left Hand Great Plains Hunter models) manufactured from March 1, 2017 to December 22, 2017. Barrels with the serial number in the range of A595960–A599026 are subject to this recall.

Safety Warning:
Lyman has determined that some black powder rifles and pistols could, under certain circumstances, develop separation in the breech plug, which may pose a potential safety hazard. Please do not load or use any rifles or pistols subject to this recall.
How to Identify Rifles and Pistols Subject to the Recall:
Find the serial number where the barrel meets the tang, opposite of the lock. The serial number has the letter “A” followed by a series of 6 numbers.

Action to be Taken:
If the serial number is within the range of A595960–A599026, immediately discontinue any use of this product. Please contact the Lyman Customer Service Department by emailing customerservice@lymanproducts.com or by calling 800-225-9626 Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 4:15 p.m. EST. You will be asked to provide your contact information, serial number, and either the part number or model to process the return.
Anyone outside the U.S.A. who is in possession of a black powder rifle or pistol within the recall range should contact your local distributor immediately.

Shipping:
Upon receipt of the information provided to customer service, Lyman will send instructions and packaging to ship the product to Lyman for replacement at no cost to the customer. Lyman will provide a replacement barrel and tang with instructions or will replace the barrel and tang at Lyman and return the firearm. Please only return your rifle, pistol, or barrel and tang with the provided shipping tags and boxes

Sincerely,

Midsouth Shooters Supply"
Top Top