Went to ETH's farm and shot last weekend. There were targets at 300 and 400 yrs for us to shoot, and I realize that this long distance stuff is "darn cool" and starts to intrigue me.
So I'm thinking about 308 caliber either FAL or AR 10. Did read some stuff on both, but need your experience and help to decide which way should I go.
1. 308 caliber
2. 300-500 yds or longer
3. Accuracy and reliable
Which barrel length is the best? 16", 20"..etc..?
Thanks in advance for your valuable inputs!!
can't commint on the FAL so i would go with a AR-10T-(20")
i have an A4 that will shoot 3/4" MOA.
i have but would not consider the M1A National Match. for realy long range you need a .50
max range for a .308 win is about 800 yds.
at about 800 it will go subsonic and begin to wobble. try shooting steel targets at 600 yds. their is definantly a delay.
The FAL is cheaper and probably more reliable, but the design of the AR-10 is better suited to long range accuracy. A good .308 bolt action would also work well.
As a general rule, shorter barrels mean lower velocities so I would avoid the shorty rifles for long range work.
I would recommend a good bolt gun before and FAL or AR-10 at those ranges. I don't think you could go wrong with a Remington 700 LTR or a PSS. For the money, you could buy the rifle and put some high quality glass on top of it for close to the same money as an FAL or AR-10. Just my 0.02 cents.
Nothing wrong with a wellbuilt AR either. Remember, they win at medium ranges (500-600 yards) and even long range (800,900, 1000).
I would go with a chrome barrel flattop AR10, with either a 16 or 20 inch barrel depending on whether you want this to be a CQB rifle as well. If you mostly want it for long range, go with the 20 inch. The FAL is more reliable, but the AR10 is more accurate and MUCH better for mounting a scope.
the whole bolt gun/gas gun argument boils down to this...
MOA is minute of angle 1MOA is 1" at 100 yds, 6" at 600 yds and 10" at 1000 yds.
4 MOA bolt 300.00 gas 350.00 ak,sks
2 MOA. bolt 500.00 gas 700.00 ar-15
1 MOA. bolt $700.00 gas 1200.00 m1a,ar-10
3/4 MOA bolt 1200.00 gas 1600.00 m1a-NM,AR-10T
1/2 MOA bolt 2500.00 gas 2300.00--6000.00 M1A-SM (big maybe), HK-psg1
so a 700.00 bolt gun will beat a 700.00 gas gun. how much do you want to spend for accuracy?
how many rapid fire shots do you want before heat destroys that accuracy?
i know i can get 20 1" shots from my AR-10 before heat kills the groups. few 700.00 bolt guns can pull this off
hope this helps, bolt guys flame on!!!
About Mojo's long range shooting.
I saw him shoot long range (300-400yds) at ETH's farm. The guy was hitting a 10 inch steel cylinder using an 11.5" Bushmaster upper on his M16.
The sight was a red dot, no magnification. No bipod, just a picnic table for a rest.
My advice, mojo, if you want to have a consistently accurate rifle, go with a bolt action. However, you were doing as well using your 11.5" as the rest of us with more 'long range' setups.
My Savage 112 (.22-250) hit 3 out of 4 of the first shots at 300 yards. Get a Savage 110 in .223 (they make one in .223, right?)
Good price, super accurate.
Harris Bipod, and a 20x scope and your good to go. 500.00-650.00 total investment.
RealEric was nailing that thing with a .308 HK clone, right? He recommended a CETME in .308 to DrJeffAllen for long range plinking, I think.
Everyone went to Eric's and got to shoot long range but me....
[>Q] [>Q] [>Q]
But in answer... the FAL is fun, and can reliably shoot long range with decent accuracy, however, the FAL was not designed as a match shooter, does not have any good designs for free floating the barrel, and does not have a good base for mounting optics. Sure, you can add the DSA super-mount, but then it makes cleaning a little more difficult. I love my FAL, but if I had the cash, and wanted a longer range match shooter, I'd go for the AR10T. Just ask DonR.
Thanks all my brothers-in-arms for all the advices. Please keep them coming in. I'm a sponge right now.
BTW, ballistically, which caliber performs better,30-06, 308, .22-250, etc.. in general? between 300-800yds. I know it is a wide range, and I don't know much diddly about these ranges, so holler at me if it is a stupid question.
Also, on the 11.5" M16, I hit only some at 400
yds. I'm shi**y at that distance. TRG got 6 or 7 on his rifle at 400 yds.--in a row!!
Mojo, ya know how much fun your AR's are? Buy a AR10 and you'll never regret it. They are acurate, reliable, powerful. and fun.
When it came up between choosing my FAL or my Cetme , I choose my Cetme . Its more accurate and performs better with a wide selection of ammo (No gas regulator to play with!)
Here are two factors to consider about long range shooting:
If you aren't on a range, odds are very good that your target will be at an unknown distance. This isn't a big deal with most rifles inside of 350 yards but beyond that, bullet drop starts to become a significant factor.
Higher velocities = flatter trajectories = less need to estimate ranges accurately
Similarly, wind drift starts to become an important factor at extended ranges. Faster, heavier bullets will drift less than slower, lighter bullets.
Even at 200 yds, the problem is not so much the bullet drop, but the inability of the rifleman to hold a steady point of aim.
True, but... The really fast bullets are the light ones. .22-250 (40 grain bullet) etc.
Well, yes and no. The wind drift is consistent. 15 mph drift is 15 mph drift, no matter the round. The difference is the time the round is exposed to the drift, and an inertial effect based on mass and gyroscopic forces. Time of flight being the more critical factor.
I feel the main factor if time. The longer the bullet is in the air (based on range to target and velocity) the more the atmosphere is a factor.
It is my understanding that gravity is a constant, but YMMV. By this I mean that each bullet falls toward the Earth at the same rate. Wind is a factor of the cross section of the bullet and inertia along with the gyroscopic forces acting on the round.
Mojo, After firing 200 rounds of .223, even with a rubber butt pad, I still felt a little tenderness in my shoulder the next day. .308 is gonna have more punch down range, but it is also going to have more punch on your shoulder.
OK, here is what I'm leaning toward to:
3. FAL 21"
After pondering and thinking--no bolt guns-- eventhough, I know they are good and accurate.
Between the three, I hear a lot AR-10T. Any reasons that FAL and CETME are not the choice.
The criteria are still:
1: 300-800 yds
2. Accurate and reliable
3. 308 caliber
I know that I did add CETME after reading stuff about it. I apologize for any confusions and you guys can kick my arse later when you see me. But as of right now, I need your experiences and advices, so I can make better decision on this potential purchase..Thanks again..Mojo
Hey mojo, Just my imput,
A friend of mine, Madd_Bradd, had recently bought an Armalite 24" 308.
Damn accurate rifle. All his 3/4 MOA grouping were touching at 100 yards.
I was impressed and jealous...
This would get my vote for my next rifle.
Its pretty heavy though. You will need a bipod for it.
He spent a lot of time breaking the barrel in, which was suggested in the manual.
I've never owned or fired an AR-10, so I can't comment there.
I do have a FAL 21" and find it is accurate enough at the distances you want to shoot at.
The whole MOA thing becomes really irritating some times. As long as you hit them in the thorassic cavity, who cares how close the bullets were. You're going to have the same result.
And about having to fiddle with the FAL's gas system, you only need to do this once, and it takes less than five minutes.
Just my opinion of course.
Mojo - first how serious about long range do you want to get?
If the word is serious - there is only one answer - bolt gun.
What you will end up with at the low end is a Savage Tac in .308 with a cheap Tasco SS and comparable base/rings for about $800.00 - that gun will out shoot a gas gun with the same optic (note I am saying gun not shooter).
From there it goes up in price and (to some) quality.
Gas guns are great but they are not BRs - and never will be.
Additionally, due to loading - you can customize the length of your load and thus up the accuracy of your bolt gun - you can not do this with a gas gun.
Secondly, the question is not "is it a 1/2 moa at 100?" the question is "does it hold 1/2 moa ....?"
Long range shooting is lots of fun. Long range begins after 300 yrds. Think about the manner in which you want to shoot and go from there.
The AR-10 and the like are really cool for what they are. And as far as versital - they are substantially more so than a bolt gun.
ps - in the end (depending on how serious you get) you will probably have less $ wrapped up in a gas gun too.
Depends on who is behind the gun.
Max effective range for a .308 is more like 1200 yrds.
1k shooters are every where in the USA.
SIX: Not very serious, but somewhat serious, not for competition. That is the reason for the 3 choices. Something that I'm be able to hit and cause damages, if needed to. Not that .223 could not do it, but I think .308 is better at longer range, ballistically, and damage-wise.
I know that bolt guns are better at longer distance and more accurate based on what you gents telling me, so I know I compromise on these 2 issues. However, I do like the idea of 20 rds mag or more when using it, either longer distance or closer.
Am I confusing you gents?
AR-10T = drool
AR-10 mag cost = recoil of its own kind
FAL = hmmm - might look to a custom builder too
Good luck - have fun
i guess we can argue about what "effective" means but accuracy does fall off past 800 yds.
the accuracy of a .308 and a .300 ultramag are the same out to 800 yds. past that the accuracy of the .308 suffers.