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Posted: 3/18/2016 1:25:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 1:37:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/21/2016 7:03:17 AM EST by UNV_Rich]
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 2:01:46 PM EST
Awesome but for $7,500 you'd hope it would be. It says 2.5X optical and 8x digital. Does that mean you switch back the between the two? What's the difference.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 2:26:23 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 2:28:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2016 2:37:03 PM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 3:14:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2016 3:20:05 PM EST by UNV_Rich]
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 3:46:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2016 3:54:33 PM EST by BushmanLA]
So a few of my notes on detecting and identifying in thermal vs I2.

With a I2 night vision device, you essentially see the same picture that you might see during the day, less color, less really good lighting. The resolution on most NODS is so good that it is transparent to your eye. The light levels might not be as good as you want, but there simply isn't any form of pixilation etc. The loss of color is significant for identification but at some point it is well made up for in detail of the image.

Thermal on the other hand is total crap for resolution. However, the fact that animals are the light source opens up new abilities for determining what you are looking at.
For example, with good ole fashioned mark I eyeball in broad daylight, you might have difficulty detecting much less identifying a man wearing camo in partial cover at 200 yards. It gets worse with I2, but detecting him in thermal is a breeze. IDing him as a human isn't that hard either if you have more to work with than a still image. Since he is so easy to detect, he is also easy to observe over time and get cues that he isn't a deer or a snake. If you want to see if it is cousin bob or cousin joe, then you can forget it in thermal.

Deer and pigs are much easier to detect in thermal, and I'm starting to think they are easier to ID in thermal as well between comparatively zoomed devices as long as you have time to observe and are not staring at a still image. Deer behave so much different than pigs that you start to get better and better at it as time goes on.

I have found that my ID range has stretched out much farther than my shooting range, which is the way it should be.
I can ID most animals on thermal with just a handful of pixels these days with fairly good reliability. You can't (or you shouldn't be) shooting at a handful of pixels, so by the time you close in to good shooting range, your ID confidence gets around 99.999%. If you were wrong in your original assessment, it isn't a big deal. All you did was stalk up to the wrong animal.

The trick is to observe over time and look for clues that confirm animal type.

Pigs do not have long skinny necks that raise up and look around ever so often.
Deer do not have 6 little baby football sized deer zipping around them.
Coons and oppossum and skunks have a totally different gate and body shape.
Armadillos can look surprisingly like baby pigs in behavior and sound except for that long thin tail.
You get the idea.
A yote can look surprisingly like a young deer in body shape but their behavior and movement patterns are vastly different.

Here is how you can get burnt. A deer with his head down while standing in tall grass. Until you see that "pigs" head lift up and see his ears and snout, he has not been identified.



Here's a good example. This field was chock full of deer, sleeping deer, and pigs. (and rabbits)
From the still image, at this range it is hard to tell whats what. However, I was able to observe just a few seconds and pick out the pile that was pigs and we successfully stalked up and shot them in the face.
Was I sure enough to pull the trigger from this distance?
No way, but I couldn't have made that shot anyway.




I'm more and more convinced that as thermal prices drop I2 is best for navigation, close in high action shooting, and other close in fast moving scenes that thermal starts to suck at. And most of us can do without it. For hunting, I'd rather have a hand held thermal or quick detach thermal as my one and only device. If I had to I'd use thermal for detection and white light for my shooting and I'd still be better off than with I2 alone.

I suspect that this doesn't hold true for police/military use.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 4:29:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2016 4:34:07 PM EST by SkyPup]
No problems ID or Kill @ 100 yards, don't know about either a mile out though.







FLIR M-18





FLIR LS-XR







FLIR RS32-35



































FLIR T-75 hog @ 500 yards @ 24X total magnification (6X ocular and 4X digital) right before he took a .308 to the ear:




Link Posted: 3/18/2016 4:45:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 4:59:30 PM EST
Most of our coyote/hog engagements are 75-125 yards when walking around in the woods.

However, most of our coyote/hog engagements are 150-225 yards when setup in a stand in the woods.


Here is a 175 hog sniper kill with a FLIR RS64-35 at 175 yards from a stand, which I think I have done about 1,500 times successfully.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpH6W8RjyYo


Coyote off same stand a bit further out:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxNnWkQR3bY



ID & Kill both not a problem.



Link Posted: 3/18/2016 4:59:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2016 5:10:36 PM EST by RenegadeX]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BushmanLA:
Thermal on the other hand is total crap for resolution.
View Quote


I must have the best thermal unit in the world. Deer are 125 yds away. Go ahead and count the antlers, the resolution is so good. The fence posts are 1 inch wide. While not obvious in the photo, with the human eye I could even see the fence wire which is 1/8 inch in diameter. Yeah I will take 1/8 inch at over 100 yards.



eta

IRHUNTER 640x480x60
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 5:09:10 PM EST
What unit do you have?

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RenegadeX:


I must have the best thermal unit in the world. Deer are 125 yds away. Go ahead and count the antlers, the resolution is so good. The fence posts are 1 inch wide. While not obvious in the photo, with the human eye I could even see the fence wire which is 1/8 inch in diameter. Yeah I will take 1/8 inch at over 100 yards.

<a href="http://s839.photobucket.com/user/Umbrarian/media/DeerHunts/IMAGE47.bmp_zpshf6kkjih.png.html" target="_blank">http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/DeerHunts/IMAGE47.bmp_zpshf6kkjih.png</a>
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Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
Originally Posted By BushmanLA:
Thermal on the other hand is total crap for resolution.


I must have the best thermal unit in the world. Deer are 125 yds away. Go ahead and count the antlers, the resolution is so good. The fence posts are 1 inch wide. While not obvious in the photo, with the human eye I could even see the fence wire which is 1/8 inch in diameter. Yeah I will take 1/8 inch at over 100 yards.

<a href="http://s839.photobucket.com/user/Umbrarian/media/DeerHunts/IMAGE47.bmp_zpshf6kkjih.png.html" target="_blank">http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Umbrarian/DeerHunts/IMAGE47.bmp_zpshf6kkjih.png</a>

Link Posted: 3/18/2016 5:13:47 PM EST
This will be a useful and informative thread. People are always asking about useful ranges with NV and thermal. Nothing answers those questions better than pictures.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 5:27:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 5:53:18 PM EST
IR PATROL M250

F250 at 10 yards





F250 Crossing Creek at 15 yards



Ninja at 10 Yards with 2 Foxes







Link Posted: 3/18/2016 5:57:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 6:21:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2016 6:23:27 PM EST by SkyPup]
















United States Air Force Helicopter Landing 850nm IR Illuminator 130,400 mW.





Horses in pasture @ 175 yards, no IR illumination:








Horses in pasture @ 175 yards, 3,400mW 850nm IR illuminator on low power (1,700mW);



Link Posted: 3/18/2016 7:03:11 PM EST
Excellent thread, Mr Rich! Very helpful to have "up to date" pics/info that apply to hunting with actual distances and other pertinent information.
Examples of the layout are good for context.
Mucho thanks to contributing posters for their efforts.
I'm pretty much in for a REAP-IR and a 19a unless I find a reason to go another way. d:^) Jake..
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 7:33:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 10:19:35 PM EST
Fantastic pics guys, keep them coming!
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 8:18:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 9:18:45 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SkyPup:
No problems ID or Kill @ 100 yards, don't know about either a mile out though.

View Quote

Think about how many times you've seen hot spots nearly a mile out with a 5X thermal, guessed what kind of animal it was and turned out to be right.

It's fairly rare that I have to look out that far, but when I do, just a handful of pixels and a little bit of observation time and I would guess my success rate at id is about 60% to 75%.
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 10:53:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:
Here are a few more from this weekend. These are obviously not direct simultaneous comparisons, but should be close enough to give people an idea of how the animals look under 2.5X magnification vs. 4.5X. The hazy area on the bottom of the REAP-IR images is caused by my CQBL, which is mounted at the 12 O'clock position. The haze effect gradually recedes over the course of the night as the laser housing approaches the ambient temperature.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1511/25330729783_54d3d82451_c.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1606/25864501321_0f1cd5ac54_c.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1690/25326762394_4dbf589236_c.jpg
View Quote


You did smoke the coyote, right?
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 12:35:11 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BushmanLA:

Think about how many times you've seen hot spots nearly a mile out with a 5X thermal, guessed what kind of animal it was and turned out to be right.


It's fairly rare that I have to look out that far, but when I do, just a handful of pixels and a little bit of observation time and I would guess my success rate at id is about 60% to 75%.
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Originally Posted By BushmanLA:
Originally Posted By SkyPup:
No problems ID or Kill @ 100 yards, don't know about either a mile out though.


Think about how many times you've seen hot spots nearly a mile out with a 5X thermal, guessed what kind of animal it was and turned out to be right.


It's fairly rare that I have to look out that far, but when I do, just a handful of pixels and a little bit of observation time and I would guess my success rate at id is about 60% to 75%.

Very true.

It's amazing how you can figure out what something is even if it's just a blob in the distance. I'm not sure I can claim a 60%-75% success rate, but I'm over 50% for sure.
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 1:01:18 PM EST
Great stuff. Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 10:14:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OsoGrande:

Very true.

It's amazing how you can figure out what something is even if it's just a blob in the distance. I'm not sure I can claim a 60%-75% success rate, but I'm over 50% for sure.
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Originally Posted By OsoGrande:
Originally Posted By BushmanLA:
Originally Posted By SkyPup:
No problems ID or Kill @ 100 yards, don't know about either a mile out though.


Think about how many times you've seen hot spots nearly a mile out with a 5X thermal, guessed what kind of animal it was and turned out to be right.


It's fairly rare that I have to look out that far, but when I do, just a handful of pixels and a little bit of observation time and I would guess my success rate at id is about 60% to 75%.

Very true.

It's amazing how you can figure out what something is even if it's just a blob in the distance. I'm not sure I can claim a 60%-75% success rate, but I'm over 50% for sure.


I find that the more eyeball time you have behind thermal, the better you get at using it. You really have to retrain your brain a little to get the most out of it.
The first time we took our Tau 2 out before we put it on the UAV, we were just holding it out the window with wires leading to a little monitor. We kept see hot metal pipes and stuff where the flood gates are for all the rice fields. When we finally saw a pig the words out of my mouth there, "Dang, that pipe is shaped just like a pig." :D
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 10:25:39 PM EST
Man, oh man, are you ever right, Bushman.
After a couple of weeks fooling with my first thermal here on the property, I learned that thermal coyotes can look exactly ligh visible light poodles.
So, to start getting my mind right, I set out with it to construction sights and parks and other busy locations. I badly needed to learn the thermal version of what people and cats and dogs and other familiar things look like to help me evaluate other stuff. As important, I needed to learn what to make of thermal reflections.
Still, a couple years later, I often spot something entirely confusing and contradictory, track it down, and it usually turns out to be a piece of metal masquerading as the sky or some object it reflects.
Thermal is a very useful, and it is often counter-intuitive in the extreme.
Link Posted: 3/22/2016 1:01:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2016 5:41:38 PM EST by UNV_Rich]
Link Posted: 3/22/2016 4:27:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/22/2016 5:01:59 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:


I was there on a pest call for pigs and didn't want to hurt my chances so he got a pass. I know how much you enjoy watching forest animals expire so I uploaded this video as a consolation.

https://youtu.be/Im3AGkDdpxA


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Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:
Originally Posted By norbs79:

You did smoke the coyote, right?


I was there on a pest call for pigs and didn't want to hurt my chances so he got a pass. I know how much you enjoy watching forest animals expire so I uploaded this video as a consolation.

https://youtu.be/Im3AGkDdpxA



Good save, now I don't have to call you a name from the female anatomy.
Link Posted: 3/22/2016 5:20:30 PM EST
Hey Rich, were all these shots taken using the MKII?

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:


I was there on a pest call for pigs and didn't want to hurt my chances so he got a pass. I know how much you enjoy watching forest animals expire so I uploaded this video as a consolation.

https://youtu.be/Im3AGkDdpxA

Here are a few more pics from Saturday:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1480/25978316745_3e689f19ef_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1505/25349604493_ff4b98d0f3_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1690/25857525562_c129f45304_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1703/25677768120_a4b5233ab6_z.jpg

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Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:
Originally Posted By norbs79:

You did smoke the coyote, right?


I was there on a pest call for pigs and didn't want to hurt my chances so he got a pass. I know how much you enjoy watching forest animals expire so I uploaded this video as a consolation.

https://youtu.be/Im3AGkDdpxA

Here are a few more pics from Saturday:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1480/25978316745_3e689f19ef_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1505/25349604493_ff4b98d0f3_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1690/25857525562_c129f45304_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1703/25677768120_a4b5233ab6_z.jpg


Link Posted: 3/22/2016 5:43:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/23/2016 8:20:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/27/2016 5:21:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/27/2016 5:34:44 PM EST by UNV_Rich]
Link Posted: 3/27/2016 7:38:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:
Here are a couple from Friday:

REAP-IR:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1617/25475248713_92b96a1e02_z.jpg


L3 Unfilmed White Phosphor
NVdepot Micro, C-Mount to Nikon F Adapter, Nikon 70-200 F/2.8 at 200mm
Ambient light - Full moon, but moon very close to the horizon and partially obscured by clouds

Hog at 200 yards and 7.5X magnification:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1630/26077895115_b4df936286_z.jpg

Here's some video of it:

https://youtu.be/rGpMlxu76fE

Edited to add the kill video from later that night so Norbs won't call me names

https://youtu.be/uwhVP8QaHvE

View Quote

Lol! I wouldn't do such a thing.


Link Posted: 4/5/2016 11:44:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/5/2016 11:57:09 AM EST by UNV_Rich]
Link Posted: 4/5/2016 3:22:16 PM EST
Hey Rich, how does the image from a DVR compare to the XD50s display screen?
Link Posted: 4/7/2016 11:59:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/8/2016 12:03:29 AM EST
REAP-IR is a MUST HAVE!!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/10/2016 3:32:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/10/2016 8:12:56 PM EST by terry1]
Man the XD50 scope eyepiece OLED looks great. I would assume the new Pulsar XD50S thermal monocular would look about the same making it a great mid-long range viewer.
Link Posted: 4/10/2016 5:51:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/11/2016 11:08:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/13/2016 9:59:04 AM EST
those that have used the REAP-IR, would you take a shot at a coyote at 200-250 yards?
Link Posted: 4/13/2016 11:43:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/13/2016 10:06:18 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:
Plus, here in Texas the coyotes come so close you could probably hit them with a rock and a slingshot

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So often they almost come up close enough to give a scratch behind the ears.....

Some are bold enough I've seriously questioned if they were domestic running loose until I hit them with a light.
Link Posted: 4/14/2016 7:45:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/14/2016 10:56:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:


No doubt! I usually let them go about their business when I'm out trying to shoot pigs, but when I start to get the feeling that they're hunting me, they begin to look more and more like targets.
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Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:
Originally Posted By OsoGrande:
Originally Posted By UNV_Rich:
Plus, here in Texas the coyotes come so close you could probably hit them with a rock and a slingshot



So often they almost come up close enough to give a scratch behind the ears.....

Some are bold enough I've seriously questioned if they were domestic running loose until I hit them with a light.


No doubt! I usually let them go about their business when I'm out trying to shoot pigs, but when I start to get the feeling that they're hunting me, they begin to look more and more like targets.

It all depends on the property owner's wishes. Some properties they want everything shot that's not a cow. Other's it's just shoot the pigs.
Link Posted: 4/15/2016 10:45:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OsoGrande:It all depends on the property owner's wishes. Some properties they want everything shot that's not a cow. Other's it's just shoot the pigs.
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I remember some of the guys on GoGoVarmintGo message board way-back-when floating the idea that if ya had a pack on your property and they weren't bothering the cattle, leav'em be to chase off packs that may do harm to your livestock. Really dunno if there's anything to that or not.
Great pics and info, fellas. Please keep'em coming. Jake..
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:09:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 9:11:30 AM EST by BushmanLA]
Here some good ones for comparison. The 1X is a 640 resolution OTS-X, the 5X is a 640 ThOR.
All images are taken directly from the sensor, so no quality loss from video capture etc.


Deer, approx 650 Yards.
1X on the left, 5X on the right.




Pig 500 Yards.
1X on left, 5X on right.





It's worth noting that in both cases, I correctly id the little blip on the screen using the 1X before I confirmed with the 5X. In the still shot you can barely even tell that there is something there, but over the course of a few seconds of observation you can see its moving around and that it moves/acts like a pig or a deer.

Link Posted: 4/21/2016 9:52:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/22/2016 7:50:46 PM EST
Great thread and images. Good real world application. Thanks and keep it going!
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