NVS's (Formerly NVEC) CS6000 Thermal Weapon Sight <UPDATED>

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - NVS's (Formerly NVEC) CS6000 Thermal Weapon Sight <UPDATED>

Posted: 10/20/2007 1:10:42 PM EDT

Hello all,

Earlier this week I received some goodies for a large govy and LE order. They consisted of the same ol' Raptor 6x's

and the new Night Vision System CS6000 (CSTWS - Crew Served Thermal Weapon Sight II) This device is a marvel of technology to say the least. Below is some pics of the unit. I will post a mini review of this unit a bit later. I have a demo tonight where I will snap some pics through the unit. I will also complete the mini review in a few days.

Oh BTW, before someone asks....Cost - 28K-30K.

Weight - 3lbs 8oz
Image - 640 x 480, 25 Micron Pitch
Refresh - 30Hz
Camera Digi Zoom - 3x
Human Detection Range - 2200m

Power OP - 6AA Lithium (Cassette)
Operating Time - 8 Hours

More pics to come but here is a few to wet your appetite!

Thought I'd throw in a few boring Raptor 6x's out for test tonight along with the CS.

Alrighty, finished up the demos this weekend and snapped some through the tube pics. To say that I was impressed was an UNDERSTATEMENT! Please note the actual images I observed were better than the pics of course. Adding to the difficulty with the through the tube pics was the shuttered eye guard which cannot be removed due to when you depress the EG, the unit goes out of stand-by and powers up. The edge to edge non uniformity is me trying to center the lens of my camera into the EG.

More on all the features when I complete the review in a few days. Enjoy a few pics below. I also included some Raptor 6x and D-760 6x comparison shots as well. Much more to come.

Posted: 10/20/2007 1:15:03 PM EDT

[#1]

WOW.

If I ever become a millionaire, this is first on the list.

Lets see some pics through the sight!!

Posted: 10/20/2007 2:00:18 PM EDT

[#2]

About the only place I would feel that scope would justify the TAX dollars is at the southern border. But wow, nice scope.

Posted: 10/20/2007 2:03:58 PM EDT

[#3]

Tax for evil pics!

Posted: 10/20/2007 2:30:02 PM EDT

[#4]

WOW!

Just WOW!

Posted: 10/21/2007 11:00:35 AM EDT

[#5]

Yum, this would be perfect for my HK21 (you said it's a crew served weapon sight

)

Posted: 10/21/2007 11:03:36 AM EDT

[#6]

Where's our pics Victor?

Posted: 10/21/2007 1:57:14 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Where's our pics Victor?

Late night last evening, one more to go tonight....They be coming!

Vic

Posted: 10/21/2007 10:43:49 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Where's our pics Victor?

Late night last evening, one more to go tonight....They be coming!

Vic

Updated above...Will finish the review this week. Enjoy

Posted: 10/21/2007 10:49:59 PM EDT

[#9]

Damn. I would almost start working another job for one of these

Posted: 10/21/2007 11:47:21 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Damn. I would almost start working another job for a year for one of these

That's about a year's salary for me...

So Vic, I'm sure it's apples & oranges, but how does that $8000 KAC NV compare?

Posted: 10/22/2007 12:23:11 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
If I ever become a millionaire, this is first on the list.

+1

Posted: 10/22/2007 8:23:29 AM EDT

[#12]

So the CS6000 is a hybrid unit [reference through tube pics 5 & 6]?

The resolution is awesome! It is also interesting to see how the rocks on the range hold their heat versus the surrounding ground; was it relatively early in the evening?

Did you remove the device from the weapon system when "shooting" the live target, or does he just have profound trust in you?

Posted: 10/22/2007 5:02:58 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
So the CS6000 is a hybrid unit [reference through tube pics 5 & 6]?
Actually this system is not a hybrid, what you seeing is simply different colored LCD screen selections. It DOES help with the contrast as you can see.

The resolution is awesome! It is also interesting to see how the rocks on the range hold their heat versus the surrounding ground; was it relatively early in the evening?
It was around 9:00pm and yes the rocks were still heated as you can see.

Did you remove the device from the weapon system when "shooting" the live target, or does he just have profound trust in you? Even though he does have a profound trust in me I thought a tripod would be a better anchor!

Edited to add, I also wanted many folks to see a VERY good comparison between the Raptor 6X and the D760. Not that much of a difference as folks can see....A VERY BIG WINK HERE!

More to come on this subject matter again as it's been awhile since I re-visited this review of the Raptor vs. D-760. At this time I was not allowed to take pics at this "special" area so I hope these latest pics and others I took will begin to show how close tube wise and optics the D-760 is to the Raptor. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=194640

Posted: 10/22/2007 7:14:23 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Damn. I would almost start working another job for a year for one of these

That's about a year's salary for me...

So Vic, I'm sure it's apples & oranges, but how does that $8000 KAC NV compare?

They don't as with any clip on PVS-22 style of NV optic (NOT just KAC, but OSTI and others) rely of course on the day optic that looks through the 22 style NV optic. Dedicated NV or thermal rifle scopes usually have better clarity compared with these systems overall. Hope this helps.

Posted: 10/29/2007 8:34:36 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So the CS6000 is a hybrid unit [reference through tube pics 5 & 6]?
Actually this system is not a hybrid, what you seeing is simply different colored LCD screen selections. It DOES help with the contrast as you can see.

The resolution is awesome! It is also interesting to see how the rocks on the range hold their heat versus the surrounding ground; was it relatively early in the evening?
It was around 9:00pm and yes the rocks were still heated as you can see.

Did you remove the device from the weapon system when "shooting" the live target, or does he just have profound trust in you? Even though he does have a profound trust in me I thought a tripod would be a better anchor!

Edited to add, I also wanted many folks to see a VERY good comparison between the Raptor 6X and the D760. Not that much of a difference as folks can see....A VERY BIG WINK HERE!

More to come on this subject matter again as it's been awhile since I re-visited this review of the Raptor vs. D-760. At this time I was not allowed to take pics at this "special" area so I hope these latest pics and others I took will begin to show how close tube wise and optics the D-760 is to the Raptor. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=194640

I want one!!!

Posted: 10/29/2007 8:39:38 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
About the only place I would feel that scope would justify the TAX dollars is at the southern border. But wow, nice scope.

TWS's work great down there

It's a whole different world when unassisted you can't see 5ft in front of you face. Thank the taxpayers for thermals and NV

Victor, how does this compare to the AN/PAS-13B? That's the only thing I've used that could compare. This looks a lot more user friendly.

Posted: 10/31/2007 4:31:33 AM EDT

[#17]

Played with TWS II by BAE a while back. Cool little unit.....but to me, it's just another uncooled FLIR. Maybe I don't get too excited because I play with the best FLIR and see these things all day long (sorry for being so unenthused). I have also played with the DRS unit. Subjectively, can't really tell which is better.

You would need a blackbody/collimator to "do it right". The eval should be done over 24 hours period to show the effects and see how the FLIR performs at thermal crossovers.

AN/PAS-13 is quite an interesting design. It's close to a hybrid cooled/uncooled.

Posted: 10/31/2007 7:44:10 AM EDT

[#18]

What is the smallest cooled unit (weapons sight) available?

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

Posted: 11/1/2007 8:06:04 AM EDT

[#19]

For the US, I don't think there is one. There may have been one, but no longer in the inventory, but doubtful. I remember seeing one from Europe.

The cooled FLIR is not typically used in the handheld applications because of the weight, size, and power consumption of the cooler.

PAS-13 uses somewhat of a cooled sensor that is cooled by stacked ThermoElectric Cooler (TEC aka Peltier juntion device). By stacking, the TEC can get down to the cooled FLIR operating temperature.

In a typical cooled FLIR, you would have a Dewar cooler, which will gets the focalplane (FPA) real cold (think double digit Kelvin).

In uncooled, there may be a TEC to "temperature stabilize" the FPA. The newer ones don't even use TEC anymore.

The cooled system has a much better picture and performance (more sensitive, need less integration time, more uniform response).

Now, the bad news for most people is that they would never see a cooled system in real life. Most of the cooled platforms are in airplanes and tanks.

Posted: 11/1/2007 8:18:13 AM EDT

[#20]

I lied....not sure if this thing is actually in the service or not. Look at its size compare to Insight, BAE, and DRS....it's much bigger.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002infantry/looby.pdf

Posted: 11/1/2007 7:23:15 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Now, the bad news for most people is that they would never see a cooled system in real life. Most of the cooled platforms are in airplanes and tanks.

Unless they are you and I!

(We're fortunate with you seeing MUCH more in the thermal arena!

)

Edited to add....Btw all, I will attempt to finish the mini review this weekend. I wish I had more time to look at this unit, it had to ship the next day!

Posted: 11/1/2007 8:15:37 PM EDT

[#22]

So no one has fielded a cooled, man portable weapons sight huh? Interesting.

I have messed with the FLIR on the CH 53E and the AH-1W so I am familiar with just how capable they can be. It's kind of one of those "WOW" moments when you can see things like someone's palm prints on the hanger wall after they have touched the wall and walked away.

Alas weapons sights of that quality are more than a few years away?

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

Posted: 11/2/2007 4:19:33 AM EDT

[#23]

Probably one of the most important factor is the reliability. Cooled system has that much more components....the cooler itself is a mechanical unit (sometime called Stirling engine). So the MTBF is much lower than the uncooled....in order of 2 magnitude.

The uncooled world is catching up, but we're still learning. Performance-wise, it has its own flaws.....integration time etc.

What will be interesting is what we can do with Third Gen FPA (2 wavelengths). A lot of work is being done there....specifically between LWIR and MWIR. Each wavelength (FLIR image) will look the same with an untrained eye, but each does have its own merits and application.

Those will be your Planck's Blackbody radiation and atmospheric that will determine your selection of wavelength.

The reality is that the uncooled FLIR world should have the performance that will match crew served weapon effective range in the next decade or so.

Posted: 12/3/2007 1:41:12 PM EDT

[#24]

Thought I would bump this up as I attempt to finish the review!

Posted: 12/30/2007 6:58:53 PM EDT

[#25]

.

Posted: 1/11/2008 3:30:08 PM EDT

[#26]

.

Posted: 1/14/2008 9:18:40 AM EDT

[#27]

Victor, when you do your test, can you also test the theory about the metallic survival blanket being able to shield the subject from view? I think the shiny part goes toward the person to reflect body heat back toward him/her.

Posted: 1/15/2008 8:17:56 AM EDT

[#28]

Also another question if you are testing. Being that it is Thermal sensitive optics. Is there any mirage or interference from high Barrel heat or Suppressor heat after some rounds fired off ? Since the thermal sight-plane is on top, close and looking directly over them ?
.

Posted: 1/16/2008 11:27:14 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Also another question if you are testing. Being that it is Thermal sensitive optics. Is there any mirage or interference from high Barrel heat or Suppressor heat after some rounds fired off ? Since the thermal sight-plane is on top, close and looking directly over them ?
.

Never noticed any barrel heat up issues, but then again I do not fire FA.

As for "FordGuy" posts, I do not have the CT unit any longer. It went to an agency very quickly and I only had a short time to test the unit.

Vic

Posted: 1/18/2008 4:13:55 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Victor, when you do your test, can you also test the theory about the metallic survival blanket being able to shield the subject from view? I think the shiny part goes toward the person to reflect body heat back toward him/her.

I can tell you that it's not going to work. You're confusing light with heat.

Light works off reflection.

Heat works off emission, absorption, and radiation.

You see during the day because lights reflects off objects. For I^2, the starlight falls upon the object, reflects, and you amplify it with I^2.

Heat is a diffferent story. The sun radiates during the day, the material absorbs the heat. So at night, now that material is now emitting stored heat energy. Another way is the object is producing (radiating) heat, such as human.

Remeber that FLIR works off temperature difference. Your body is hotter than the rest of the scene. If you put a glass of cold water in your hand, eventually, the glass will reach the temperature of your body temperature. In case of a blanket, it's the same way. You can argue all you want about how it's an insulator, but eventually, it'll get to your body temp.

Metallic objects conduct heat even faster. What needs to happen is to have an ative cooling system, but with current FLIR's....you'll see it still.

You'll also find that certain object acts like a mirror when looking thru FLIR. For an example, windows. Tactically, that's a big downfall for FLIR....not being to see thru windows.

To really test the FLIR on how good it is subjetively, you need to see it for at least 24 hours and observe it through diurnal cycle.

Posted: 1/18/2008 5:07:41 AM EDT

[#31]

Rod Pinkston is the former NCOIC of the US Army Marksmanship Unit's Shotgun Team, and the link below is to his spin-off business as a hog-hunting guide and feral hog control contractor in Georgia.

While the PAS-13 and the new SOF CQC Thermal are nice (expensive) pieces of gear the Canadian commercial thermals are quite effective and affordable (relatively speaking).

www.jagerpro.com/

Posted: 1/18/2008 7:57:24 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Victor, when you do your test, can you also test the theory about the metallic survival blanket being able to shield the subject from view? I think the shiny part goes toward the person to reflect body heat back toward him/her.

I can tell you that it's not going to work. You're confusing light with heat.

Light works off reflection.

Heat works off emission, absorption, and radiation.

You see during the day because lights reflects off objects. For I^2, the starlight falls upon the object, reflects, and you amplify it with I^2.

Heat is a diffferent story. The sun radiates during the day, the material absorbs the heat. So at night, now that material is now emitting stored heat energy. Another way is the object is producing (radiating) heat, such as human.

Remeber that FLIR works off temperature difference. Your body is hotter than the rest of the scene. If you put a glass of cold water in your hand, eventually, the glass will reach the temperature of your body temperature. In case of a blanket, it's the same way. You can argue all you want about how it's an insulator, but eventually, it'll get to your body temp.

Metallic objects conduct heat even faster. What needs to happen is to have an ative cooling system, but with current FLIR's....you'll see it still.

You'll also find that certain object acts like a mirror when looking thru FLIR. For an example, windows. Tactically, that's a big downfall for FLIR....not being to see thru windows.

To really test the FLIR on how good it is subjetively, you need to see it for at least 24 hours and observe it through diurnal cycle.

Good description as always!