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Posted: 12/4/2007 11:49:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 11:49:48 AM EDT by Forest]
Hey gents.
I have recently come to the conclusion that "SBR"'s to me are all hype. I have spent dozens of hours reasearching, and hundreds of dollars investing in what I thought was the do all end all of tactical rifles.

After all that now I've come to the conclusion that I want a 16" barrel after all. Question is how do I reverb my rifle back to a 16" legally?

Are there certain steps I have to follow? I repeat I want to take it back to a normal 16" carbine. I want to get rid of the NFA "status"

Also I have noticed that even if I want to go back home for the holidays, and I happened to want to take my rifle with me I have to alert everyone short of the Queen mother just to take my own damn rifle with me. Or elsle it's "trafficking".

Some one help me.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:22:25 AM EDT
Simply replace the current bbl with your new bbl of choice (exceeding 16" of course) and replace the lower reciever with a new.

I'm very certain that "once a machinegun, SBR, ect...always a machinegun, SBR, ect."

Obviously you can reuse the FCG and stock, but the stripped reciever has the serial #'s on it and will forever be registered as a SBR.

You could sell the reciever to someone else, but it would only be transferable as a SBR and the new owner would still have to pay the $200 tax to the BATFE. In virtually all cases of dabbling in the NFA world, the $$$ you spend is an investment only to yourself.

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:30:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 2:31:01 AM EDT by packingXDs]

Originally Posted By loadedspecops1911:

Also I have noticed that even if I want to go back home for the holidays, and I happened to want to take my rifle with me I have to alert everyone short of the Queen mother just to take my own damn rifle with me. Or elsle it's "trafficking".



And that right there is why I would rather not SBR my rifles. Way to much hassle for a few less inches of steel.

ETA:

Sounds like the easiest way to get away from the NFA issues, is to do what the above posters mentioned. Strip off the registered receiver, go buy a new one.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:33:03 AM EDT
Send a letter to the ATF stating that the weapon has been reconfigured and is no longer a Title two configuration. Supposedly they just take it off the registry.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:42:16 AM EDT
I am sure you could sell the SBR lower stripped for at least $150.00 and then use the money and buy a new RRA lower. You will save the buyer the cost of engraving the lower.. Just psot in on the EE...
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:44:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By technogrunt:
I am sure you could sell the SBR lower stripped for at least $150.00 and then use the money and buy a new RRA lower. You will save the buyer the cost of engraving the lower.. Just psot in on the EE...


who would want to buy a lower w/ someone else's info on it? Engraving isn't that expenesive, plus you would have to pay dealer's fees unless you sold it as a SBR in state.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:45:54 AM EDT
Just get a new upper reciever.

It is my understanding that even if it is registered as an SBR, you only need to carry paperwork if it is configured as an SBR.

I don't think it would be a problem to just leave it registered and put a new upper on it. There is always the possiblity that you will want an SBR again in the future, or if they stop allowing new ones that yours will immediately appreciate in value.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:51:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Just get a new upper reciever.

It is my understanding that even if it is registered as an SBR, you only need to carry paperwork if it is configured as an SBR.

I don't think it would be a problem to just leave it registered and put a new upper on it. There is always the possiblity that you will want an SBR again in the future, or if they stop allowing new ones that yours will immediately appreciate in value.


It is still regulated as an NFA weapon. Regardless of what it may look like, it is still a short barreled rifle. As long as it is registered as such NFA regulations must be followed in regards to said weapon. Not that the avg. John Q Law would know that the lower was a SBR, but better to be safe then sorry.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:20:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rcr29:

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Just get a new upper reciever.

It is my understanding that even if it is registered as an SBR, you only need to carry paperwork if it is configured as an SBR.

I don't think it would be a problem to just leave it registered and put a new upper on it. There is always the possiblity that you will want an SBR again in the future, or if they stop allowing new ones that yours will immediately appreciate in value.


It is still regulated as an NFA weapon. Regardless of what it may look like, it is still a short barreled rifle. As long as it is registered as such NFA regulations must be followed in regards to said weapon. Not that the avg. John Q Law would know that the lower was a SBR, but better to be safe then sorry.


correct. the "firearm", the lower reciever of the AR15, is a title II weapon. doesn't matter if you have a 75 foot long barrel on it or not, it is still a SBR. DO NOT take it out of state without completing the propper paperwork regardless of configuration.

that said, why waste all that time, money, and effort; you HAVE a completed SBR, why not just put it in the safe and leave it there? just build another rifle that you can take with you.


Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:30:13 AM EDT
The amount of misinformation in this thread is embarrassing.


Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:54:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The amount of misinformation in this thread is embarrassing.




you took the time and effort to come into this thread, read enough of the posts to determine that "the amount of misinformation in this thread is embarrassing", but didn't bother to actually post anything other than a snide comment?

helpful as always...


Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:57:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 6:06:04 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The amount of misinformation in this thread is embarrassing.




you took the time and effort to come into this thread, read enough of the posts to determine that "the amount of misinformation in this thread is embarrassing", but didn't bother to actually post anything other than a snide comment?

helpful as always...





I don't have the time or will to correct 10+ posts.

That isn't a reasonable expectation of me to clean up this mess. And even after I did, I would still have people trying to argue with me.

If you don't know about NFA weapons or the NFA process, don't post in the thread. Its as simple as that.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 6:22:55 AM EDT
Simple answer: Write ATF and say the rifle has been converted back to Title I status and request it be removed from the registry. You eat the $200 tax.

What I would do: Get a 16" barrel and leave it on the NFA registry. You might change your mind down the road and want a SBR again. If crossing state lines without a 5320.20 is that important, buy another stripped lower.

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 6:53:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By newbe:

I'm very certain that "once a machinegun, SBR, ect...always a machinegun, SBR, ect."

Obviously you can reuse the FCG and stock, but the stripped reciever has the serial #'s on it and will forever be registered as a SBR.




No offense, newbe, but your only partially correct here. What you say about an MG always being an MG is true. However, an SBR can be removed from the NFA registry simply by requesting it with a letter referring to the S/N and manufacturer (the person that did the conversion and original Form 1 application, whose name and address is engraved on the receiver). No fee is needed. Once you get the confirmation from the NFA branch in Martinsburg, WV, the short barrel MUST be sold or destroyed. I recommend retaining proof of either.

Noah
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 7:01:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:

It is my understanding that even if it is registered as an SBR, you only need to carry paperwork if it is configured as an SBR.


Not true. If it's registered as an SBR, it remains an SBR regardless of the configuration. I have an SBR'd AR that's papered to a 10.5" barrel. If I install a 20" upper IT IS STILL A REGISTERED SBR and subject to all NFA rules applying to SBRs.

As far as "carrying paperwork," the approved Form 1 is a tax document and theoretically the owner of a registered SBR need not show the approved Form 1 to anyone because of privacy regulations regarding tax documents. In practice, it's a good idea to keep a copy of the Form 1 with the weapon, because it's the only way that you can prove to a LEO that it's yours.

Originally Posted By efpeter: I don't think it would be a problem to just leave it registered and put a new upper on it.


The OP can most certainly do that, but REGARDLESS of the barrel length of the upper fitted to a registered SBR, it is still an SBR until such time as an owner requests the NFA Branch remove it from the registry. At that time any short barrels MUST be sold or destroyed.


Noah
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 8:10:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By packingXDs:

Originally Posted By loadedspecops1911:

Also I have noticed that even if I want to go back home for the holidays, and I happened to want to take my rifle with me I have to alert everyone short of the Queen mother just to take my own damn rifle with me. Or elsle it's "trafficking".



And that right there is why I would rather not SBR my rifles. Way to much hassle for a few less inches of steel.

ETA:

Sounds like the easiest way to get away from the NFA issues, is to do what the above posters mentioned. Strip off the registered receiver, go buy a new one.


Stop propagating all these fucking rumors. You fill out 1 sheet of paper, which can be done once a year if I you like. What so hard about that unless you can't read?

I will bet money you don't have a SBR. If you sent the paperwork in to get it, you wouldn't bitch about 1 form needed IF you travel.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 8:13:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:


It is my understanding that even if it is registered as an SBR, you only need to carry paperwork if it is configured as an SBR.


There are only a few states where "carrying your papers" is law. You don't have to have it with the weapon, but most do in case of Johnny "know it all" cop that tries to bust your nuts because he doesn't know anything about NFA laws.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 8:15:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The amount of misinformation in this thread is embarrassing.




+1


Before anymore "experts" spout off, please go visit the NFA (suppresor/m16/general c3) sections in the armory. Read the threads tacked at the top and stop looking like dumb asses.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 8:22:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 8:33:54 AM EDT by hardwarz]

Originally Posted By technogrunt:
I am sure you could sell the SBR lower stripped for at least $150.00 and then use the money and buy a new RRA lower. You will save the buyer the cost of engraving the lower.. Just psot in on the EE...


There's still the issue of the $200.00 transfer tax.

You have the parts but never assembled it right?!?!?!?!?! If so, sell the upper. You can't have the upper anyway if you have the weapon removed from the NFA list.

Write a letter to the AFT telling them that you want a refund that the SBR was never built. Yes, the $200.00 tax stamp is refundable.

*************************************­*******************************

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 479—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS

Subpart M—Redemption of or Allowance for Stamps or Refunds

§ 479.171 Redemption of or allowance for stamps.
Where a National Firearms Act stamp is destroyed, mutilated or rendered useless after purchase, and before liability has been incurred, such stamp may be redeemed by giving another stamp in lieu thereof. Claim for redemption of the stamp should be filed on ATF Form 2635 (5620.8) with the Director. Such claim shall be accompanied by the stamp or by a satisfactory explanation of the reasons why the stamp cannot be returned, and shall be filed within 3 years after the purchase of the stamp.

(68A Stat. 830; 26 U.S.C. 6805)

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10511, Mar. 31, 1988]



§ 479.172 Refunds.
As indicated in this part, the transfer tax or tax on the making of a firearm is ordinarily paid by the purchase and affixing of stamps, while special tax stamps are issued in payment of special (occupational) taxes. However, in exceptional cases, transfer tax, tax on the making of firearms, and/or special (occupational) tax may be paid pursuant to assessment. Claims for refunds of such taxes, paid pursuant to assessment, shall be filed on ATF Form 2635 (5620.8) within 3 years next after payment of the taxes. Such claims shall be filed with the regional director (compliance) serving the region in which the tax was paid. (For provisions relating to hand-carried documents and manner of filing, see 26 CFR 301.6091–1(b) and 301.6402–2(a).) When an applicant to make or transfer a firearm wishes a refund of the tax paid on an approved application where the firearm was not made pursuant to an approved Form 1 (Firearms) or transfer of the firearm did not take place pursuant to an approved Form 4 (Firearms), the applicant shall file a claim for refund of the tax on ATF Form 2635 (5620.8) with the Director. The claim shall be accompanied by the approved application bearing the stamp and an explanation why the tax liability was not incurred. Such claim shall be filed within 3 years next after payment of the tax.

(68A Stat. 808, 830; 26 U.S.C. 6511, 6805)

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10512, Mar. 31, 1988]

Hardwarz
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 10:08:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2007 10:09:22 PM EDT by MisterWilson]
Just get a 14.5". It's better than a 16" anyway.

ETA: And you need to post some pics, so we can see what you're walking away from too.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 10:30:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By loadedspecops1911:
Hey gents.
I have recently come to the conclusion that "SBR"'s to me are all hype. I have spent dozens of hours reasearching, and hundreds of dollars investing in what I thought was the do all end all of tactical rifles.

After all that now I've come to the conclusion that I want a 16" barrel after all. Question is how do I reverb my rifle back to a 16" legally?

Are there certain steps I have to follow? I repeat I want to take it back to a normal 16" carbine. I want to get rid of the NFA "status"

Also I have noticed that even if I want to go back home for the holidays, and I happened to want to take my rifle with me I have to alert everyone short of the Queen mother just to take my own damn rifle with me. Or elsle it's "trafficking".

Some one help me.


You can't really sell the lower, as it's just not worth it. Honestly, strip the lower receiver, get a new one, and populate it with the lower parts and new 16" barrel. So it costs you about $100 to revert without any of that BS NFA stuff.

Or you can call up the NFA Branch and say you want that particular receiver removed from the NFA registry.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 8:59:16 AM EDT
LOL -
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 9:01:18 AM EDT
Once it is a SBR it is a Title II weapon no matter what length or configuration of an upper receiver you have on the lower receiver (SBRed lower).

You can write the BATFE NFA branch and request that it be removed from the NFA registery. Send your letter in double and if you request, they will return a copy marked as received, confirming that your receiver has been removed from the registery and is now a Title I firearm again.

What I would do:

As I understand it you're just not happy with a shorty 5.56 SBR. Why don't you buy a new title I AR-15 and keep your SBR? Then get a ceiner kit to shoot .22lr through your SBR or get a caliber conversion. 9mm is tons of fun through a SBR and .22 would be great too. It won't cost you too much more as you already have the pain in the ass part... The SBR receiver.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 8:46:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardwarz:

Originally Posted By technogrunt:
I am sure you could sell the SBR lower stripped for at least $150.00 and then use the money and buy a new RRA lower. You will save the buyer the cost of engraving the lower.. Just psot in on the EE...


There's still the issue of the $200.00 transfer tax.

You have the parts but never assembled it right?!?!?!?!?! If so, sell the upper. You can't have the upper anyway if you have the weapon removed from the NFA list.

Write a letter to the AFT telling them that you want a refund that the SBR was never built. Yes, the $200.00 tax stamp is refundable.

*************************************­*******************************

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 479—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS

Subpart M—Redemption of or Allowance for Stamps or Refunds

§ 479.171 Redemption of or allowance for stamps.
Where a National Firearms Act stamp is destroyed, mutilated or rendered useless after purchase, and before liability has been incurred, such stamp may be redeemed by giving another stamp in lieu thereof. Claim for redemption of the stamp should be filed on ATF Form 2635 (5620.8) with the Director. Such claim shall be accompanied by the stamp or by a satisfactory explanation of the reasons why the stamp cannot be returned, and shall be filed within 3 years after the purchase of the stamp.

(68A Stat. 830; 26 U.S.C. 6805)

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10511, Mar. 31, 1988]



§ 479.172 Refunds.
As indicated in this part, the transfer tax or tax on the making of a firearm is ordinarily paid by the purchase and affixing of stamps, while special tax stamps are issued in payment of special (occupational) taxes. However, in exceptional cases, transfer tax, tax on the making of firearms, and/or special (occupational) tax may be paid pursuant to assessment. Claims for refunds of such taxes, paid pursuant to assessment, shall be filed on ATF Form 2635 (5620.8) within 3 years next after payment of the taxes. Such claims shall be filed with the regional director (compliance) serving the region in which the tax was paid. (For provisions relating to hand-carried documents and manner of filing, see 26 CFR 301.6091–1(b) and 301.6402–2(a).) When an applicant to make or transfer a firearm wishes a refund of the tax paid on an approved application where the firearm was not made pursuant to an approved Form 1 (Firearms) or transfer of the firearm did not take place pursuant to an approved Form 4 (Firearms), the applicant shall file a claim for refund of the tax on ATF Form 2635 (5620.8) with the Director. The claim shall be accompanied by the approved application bearing the stamp and an explanation why the tax liability was not incurred. Such claim shall be filed within 3 years next after payment of the tax.

(68A Stat. 808, 830; 26 U.S.C. 6511, 6805)

[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10512, Mar. 31, 1988]

Hardwarz


Good luck with that.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 11:33:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 12:35:24 PM EDT by WILSON]
Knock it off, loadedspecops1911. ~ WILSON
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 11:54:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 11:56:15 AM EDT by Zack3g]

Originally Posted By rxdawg:
Simple answer: Write ATF and say the rifle has been converted back to Title I status and request it be removed from the registry. You eat the $200 tax.

What I would do: Get a 16" barrel and leave it on the NFA registry. You might change your mind down the road and want a SBR again. If crossing state lines without a 5320.20 is that important, buy another stripped lower.



this is the best solution.

build up another rifle, keep the SBR.



to the OP:

i hope you don't plan on staying here long talking to people like that.

you would be wise to edit out the personal attacks in your post.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 11:57:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterWilson:
Just get a 14.5". It's better than a 16" anyway.

ETA: And you need to post some pics, so we can see what you're walking away from too.


Yeah, plus one
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 3:38:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2007 3:38:58 AM EDT by drfcolt]

Originally Posted By Magoo6541:
Once it is a SBR it is a Title II weapon no matter what length or configuration of an upper receiver you have on the lower receiver (SBRed lower).

You can write the BATFE NFA branch and request that it be removed from the NFA registery. Send your letter in double and if you request, they will return a copy marked as received, confirming that your receiver has been removed from the registery and is now a Title I firearm again.

What I would do:

As I understand it you're just not happy with a shorty 5.56 SBR. Why don't you buy a new title I AR-15 and keep your SBR? Then get a ceiner kit to shoot .22lr through your SBR or get a caliber conversion. 9mm is tons of fun through a SBR and .22 would be great too. It won't cost you too much more as you already have the pain in the ass part... The SBR receiver.


+1

Take the SBR lower and make your self a dedicated shorty 22LR with folding stock (Ciener kit doesn't use the AR15 recoil-spring/buffer) and 5" barrel ... stick a suppressor on it later ..............
Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:26:24 AM EDT
What I would do:

Fill out form 5320.20 for a year with the "back home" address and be done with it. It's not that difficult.

You can have 10 different 5320.20 with one year expirations for any address in any state that allows SBR's.

Most of my family lives in OH. My brother lives in KY. On the chance that I might want to take my SBR's there, I filled out 5320.20 and don't worry about it other than to send it in when the one year is up and get another.

In any case, I would keep the SBR lower. If you had to buy another $100 receiver, strip all the parts out of the SBR and build up a title 1 gun then do that. But I would keep my SBR tax paid and non refundable receiver in the safe with the forms or in a safe deposit box.

You've got $100 in a receiver and $200 in tax that you can't get back. Keep it!!
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