
Posted: 2/28/2011 11:22:14 AM EST
I feel real sorry for anyone who bought or transferred one of these.
From NFATCA Front Page: Many people have either voluntarily abandoned certain suspect NFA weapons to ATF or had them confiscated. These weapons may be part of an alleged conspiracy announced in late 2010 by ATF that involved "re-manufacturing" of machine guns. According to the ATF, the "defendants accomplished this by “harvesting” serial numbers from older machine guns, which would be destroyed, and then welding those serial numbers onto larger, more expensive machine guns that they had manufactured." The magnitude of this scam is still being determined as a 107 count indictment unfolds. Many of our members and others have suffered great financial harm as a result of this scam and are exploring legal remedy. If you have been harmed and would like to know more, please contact us at reman@nfatca.org. |
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Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.com/
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Originally Posted By Bubbles:
I feel real sorry for anyone who bought or transferred one of these. From NFATCA Front Page: Many people have either voluntarily abandoned certain suspect NFA weapons to ATF or had them confiscated. These weapons may be part of an alleged conspiracy announced in late 2010 by ATF that involved "re-manufacturing" of machine guns. According to the ATF, the "defendants accomplished this by “harvesting” serial numbers from older machine guns, which would be destroyed, and then welding those serial numbers onto larger, more expensive machine guns that they had manufactured." The magnitude of this scam is still being determined as a 107 count indictment unfolds. Many of our members and others have suffered great financial harm as a result of this scam and are exploring legal remedy. If you have been harmed and would like to know more, please contact us at reman@nfatca.org. This involves the M-10/11 serial numbers correct? |
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Jimi Hendrix's guitar: Beat zombies down with it, use the essence of Hendrix to destroy anything.
*YOU SHOULD PROBABLY BE LEFT HANDED TO USE THIS |
Originally Posted By Gunnerpalace: Originally Posted By Bubbles: I feel real sorry for anyone who bought or transferred one of these. From NFATCA Front Page: Many people have either voluntarily abandoned certain suspect NFA weapons to ATF or had them confiscated. These weapons may be part of an alleged conspiracy announced in late 2010 by ATF that involved "re-manufacturing" of machine guns. According to the ATF, the "defendants accomplished this by "harvesting” serial numbers from older machine guns, which would be destroyed, and then welding those serial numbers onto larger, more expensive machine guns that they had manufactured." The magnitude of this scam is still being determined as a 107 count indictment unfolds. Many of our members and others have suffered great financial harm as a result of this scam and are exploring legal remedy. If you have been harmed and would like to know more, please contact us at reman@nfatca.org. This involves the M-10/11 serial numbers correct? SWD M11/Nine were the ones I knew of. |
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So what can we do to not be scammed?
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Got Class 3??
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Originally Posted By AN94NK: So what can we do to not be scammed? SWD did not make SAWs, BARs, M60s, Tommy Guns, etc. |
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How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
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First, while most were M11/9s and MAC 10s, there were a few other entry-level MGs used as conversion hosts, including IIRC a WWII Japanese LMG.
As far as avoiding such scams, you really have to do as much studying as you can. First, learn what a correct one looks like, and find some telltale clues. Ask the owner how long he has owned it –– if it's 10 years or more, it's original: This conspiracy only started a few years ago ... and really, through the mid-'90s, MGs were so cheap, there was no reason to fake them. This is where an FOIA report comes in handy. It will tell you exactly how it was initially manufactured, and by whom (hint: M60s were never made in 9mm.) Ask the seller if he has an FOIA; alternatively, you could ask if he will accept a deposit pending an FOIA request, with the balance due when you receive it. (As noted, only the registered owner may request an FOIA report.) Of course, some owners/sellers won't accept those terms –– in fact, I'd bet that many would not, because of the delay. Alternatively, once the Form 4 goes pending, the transferee can call ATF and ask them some relevant questions, like the name of the manufacturer –– that can't be changed in the Registry, only caliber and lengths are changable. For instance, SWD never made any M240s. You also could read them the names of the FFL/SOT defendants and ask them if any one of those ever was the registered owner. ATF will not tell you which one, or anything specific, but they might say whether it belonged to someone in that group. Now, these FFL/SOTs did do a lot of legal transfers along with the hinky ones, but it's a clue. Finally, you don't need to worry about M11's being fake, because due to their entry-level market value, there's no cheaper host to "upgrade." Or you could just buy factory MGs. ![]() |
This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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Sounds like they are trying to get together a class action lawsuit against the guys who did the cutting, building, and selling but I would bet the phrase, "ain't got a pot nor a window" will fit.
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Originally Posted By brazos609:
Sounds like they are trying to get together a class action lawsuit against the guys who did the cutting, building, and selling but I would bet the phrase, "ain't got a pot nor a window" will fit. With 107 indictments so far I'd bet that many will cut deals in exchange for testimony. I also wouldn't be surprised to see more people dragged into the mess. The ones who don't end up losing everything to their defense attorneys will be BK'ed by the civil suits. |
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Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.com/
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How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
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FWIW, here is a page with links to the search warrant and indictments: http://www2.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=20486
There are six defendants charged with 107 counts. According to the linked documents, the FFL/SOTs indicted are: Hal Paul Goldstein, Randolph Benjamin Rodman, George Dibril Clark III, Lorren Marc Kalish, James Patrick Arnberger, and Idan C. Greenberg. The indictment lists 34 specific "remanufactured" machine guns, but since then, I have been told, ATF has identified dozens and dozens more. |
This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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Ok so some FFL was buying cheap MAC 11 types then cutting the serial number off and welding it to a more expensive MG that was pretty much a post-86? Now did he think this was legal or knew he was screwing people over
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Originally Posted By sardo_67:
Ok so some FFL was buying cheap MAC 11 types then cutting the serial number off and welding it to a more expensive MG that was pretty much a post-86? Now did he think this was legal or knew he was screwing people over ![]() |
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Beware Panopticon.
®¿® http://marylandshooter.com/ar15/junkOne.asp (funny pics) Thinking of an MI Rail? DON'T http://marylandshooter.com/ar15/mi/mirailissue.asp |
Originally Posted By sardo_67: Ok so some FFL was buying cheap MAC 11 types then cutting the serial number off and welding it to a more expensive MG that was pretty much a post-86? Now did he think this was legal or knew they were screwing people over |
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Do not email me please, I will not get it. IM me only for the time being..
Thanks Chas |
I was wondering how the virgin receivers work. Do you have to make something using the square stock that was registered, or can the serial number be carried over to a new firearm?
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You can be stupid or you can be lazy, but you can't be both.
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Originally Posted By clivus:
I was wondering how the virgin receivers work. Do you have to make something using the square stock that was registered, or can the serial number be carried over to a new firearm? Are you talking about the transferable receiver tubes someone was selling? idk but I think you still have to be an 02 manufacturer to legally build it into a smg. |
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Got Class 3??
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Originally Posted By AN94NK: Originally Posted By clivus: I was wondering how the virgin receivers work. Do you have to make something using the square stock that was registered, or can the serial number be carried over to a new firearm? Are you talking about the transferable receiver tubes someone was selling? idk but I think you still have to be an 02 manufacturer to legally build it into a smg. No. If it was registered pre-86 and considered a machinegun, you don't need an 02 SOT to manufacture it into a machinegun. It's already a machinegun as the registered receiver. |
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"The night has a thousand eyes, and the day but one; yet the light of the bright world dies with the dying sun. The mind has a thousand eyes, and the heart but one; yet the light of a whole life dies when love is done."
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Even if your repairing a legal MG doesn't there have to be like 80% of the original receiver or something like that?
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I am sure the buyers are claiming they are "victims" now. Some of the claims sound like these people were waiting for the weapon to be built. When you are buying a machine gun built to your specs that is extremely rare, I think you are part of the "conspiracy".
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