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Posted: 6/18/2017 10:59:20 PM EST
Hello, I am in need of a dependable IR laser and illuminator for my AR-15 SBR. I would like to keep the setup below $1200, whether it be a single module like the ATPIAL/DBAL-D2/DBAL-A3 or a separate IR light like a Surefire M600V with a DBAL-I2. How does the beam pattern of the surefire vampire series compare to the DBAL & ATPIAL illuminators? Please share your experiences and knowledge.
Link Posted: 6/18/2017 11:10:55 PM EST
What's your intended use? Very dark, middle of nowhere fields? D2 if you want to drop coin. Otal and da torch if you want to be cheaper

Urban setting? More money? Atpial. Less money? I2. Less money? Lasermax uni ir and da torch.

Money is no object? MAWL or new a4 V2.

So what's your use?
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 12:00:53 AM EST
http://shop.opticsplanet.com/steiner-eoptics-otal-c-laser-device.html?_iv_code=LD-LS-OTALC-9056&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=Cj0KEQjwyZjKBRDu--WG9ayT_ZEBEiQApZBFuMbFbyqjtg_6R9bkxQUsWTa9cKwE9d_xo1HItGx-qboaAj8P8P8HAQ


Steiner eOptics OTAL-C Laser Device
Works for me. but i'm not high speed low drag guy
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 7:25:01 AM EST
I've got two NV rifle setups. One has a DBAL I2 (Vis Laser and IR Laser) with a surefire M300V and surefire dual tape switch, and the other has an ATPIAL-C with a Surefire M300V and same dual tape switch. the illuminator on the ATPIAL does not compare with Surefire, Surefire is much brighter. But I do like have the illuminator on the ATPIAL for target acquisition. The dual switch and M300V is very nice, but IMO it doesn't make up for a dedicated illuminator when you hit the fire button. All in all, the DBAL doesn't compare to the ATPIAL-C. Being able to zero the slaved vis laser during the day and having the IR laser zero'd at the same time, is worth the extra money. Also, the surefire dual switch doesn't always stay connected to the DBAL which is super annoying.

Oh, and the ATPIAL just looks way more badass, and aren't looks everything??
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 8:09:55 AM EST
I have a few different setups. 

  • ATPIAL-C with a Surefire M300V and a TAPS non pro.  The ATPIAL-C has a fairly shitty illuminator for distance in my opinion.  It is more egg shaped than round and thanks to the .gov it's weak.  I do like it for close range CQB/Shoot house classes because the illuminator will tame the bloom of the IR laser at close distances and helps cut through the gun smoke somewhat.  Past about 50 yards, I use the surefire.  Being able to zero the visible laser and it also zero's the IR laser is nice but not a requirement. 
  • DBAL I2 with IR laser and illuminator and Surefire M300V with the surefire tape switch.  The illuminator is better than the ATPIAL but still not great, it is sufficient for out to about 100 yards.  Past that the surefire is used but even that at 100 yards starts to get weak.  I need to get a 600V just haven't bothered with it yet.  You have to use NODs to zero but that isn't really that big of a deal once you get used to it. 
  • MAWL and a Surefire M300V with a surefire tape switch until the TAPS pro comes in.  The MAWL is the best civi laser you can get, bar none.  They have sacrificed children and done secret voodoo magic with that damn thing.  The only reason I have the surefire on there is for white light and I had one laying around.  The illuminator is holy shit amazing and the laser is like a light saber.

I realize the MAWL is over your price point, but it is honestly that much better.  Doing side by side comparisons with these 3 setups and the MAWL just over powers the other 2.  You can't even tell they are on.  Being able to have change the focus/intensity for distance is the true killer for me.  In long range mode that illuminator reaches out and touches things.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 8:52:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Trapshooter50:
Hello, I am in need of a dependable IR laser and illuminator for my AR-15 SBR. I would like to keep the setup below $1200, whether it be a single module like the ATPIAL/DBAL-D2/DBAL-A3 or a separate IR light like a Surefire M600V with a DBAL-I2. How does the beam pattern of the surefire vampire series compare to the DBAL & ATPIAL illuminators? Please share your experiences and knowledge.
View Quote


How much IR do you need? The DBAL D2 can be found fornaround $1K used and its IR Illum is awesome.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 12:07:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2017 3:26:48 PM EST by Trapshooter50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FullAutoHound:
What's your intended use? Very dark, middle of nowhere fields? D2 if you want to drop coin. Otal and da torch if you want to be cheaper

Urban setting? More money? Atpial. Less money? I2. Less money? Lasermax uni ir and da torch.

Money is no object? MAWL or new a4 V2.

So what's your use?
View Quote
I live on an 18 acre horse ranch w/ 75% being open ground and 25% dense woods. I want to be able to use the IR device for some coyote hunting but mainly training purposes. There are many corn fields nearby. Minimal urban use. The ATPIAL would be at the top of my price range. I've been looking at the Dbal-i2 options mostly due to cost and small footprint. I would like a slaved visible laser inorder to easily zero the unit and also for practice purposes during daylight hours. I don't care for the "pinned" illuminator on the ATPIAL. I've never been one to skip quality in search of saving a few bucks and firmly believe in the "buy once, cry once" approach towards life. I have plenty of whitelights to choose from, so its not necessary that I get a hybrid weaponlight like the Surefire V-series. As cool as the MAWL is, I cannot justify its price at this time. Again, thanks for any help you can provide.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 2:53:34 PM EST
I'd sell you my ATPIAL-C. Has been outside exactly one time. I'm going to but a TWS instead.
Link Posted: 6/19/2017 5:41:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Trapshooter50:

I live on an 18 acre horse ranch w/ 75% being open ground and 25% dense woods. I want to be able to use the IR device for some coyote hunting but mainly training purposes. There are many corn fields nearby. Minimal urban use. The ATPIAL would be at the top of my price range. I've been looking at the Dbal-i2 options mostly due to cost and small footprint. I would like a slaved visible laser inorder to easily zero the unit and also for practice purposes during daylight hours. I don't care for the "pinned" illuminator on the ATPIAL. I've never been one to skip quality in search of saving a few bucks and firmly believe in the "buy once, cry once" approach towards life. I have plenty of whitelights to choose from, so its not necessary that I get a hybrid weaponlight like the Surefire V-series. As cool as the MAWL is, I cannot justify its price at this time. Again, thanks for any help you can provide.
View Quote
Since you don't want to drop $2500 and I don't blame you, get the d2. It's about the same strength illuminator as the MAWL. It has a slaved vis laser to zero the ir laser. One in EE now for around $1000.

Or get a cheaper otal and a torch illuminator. But that set up comes with issues that can be worked around. Just a little annoying.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 8:09:00 AM EST
If you want to go after coyotes you need thermal. With knee high grass they fade out unless they are moving. Depending on how good the night vision tube is I would go with the cheapest laser, I use an lasermax right now. That will get you killing stuff. Then add the the surefire because it is flexible and you still use it if you outgrow this application. Then add in some type of thermal even if it's just a monocular that you can't shoot from. That will get all your base covered and then if you see a week link you will know exactly what you need to upgrade for your situation. For me I started with a m845 and was killing pigs for 1k, not great for stalk hunting so I went head mounted with a pvs7, cheap mount but expensive helmet because I knew that would be the first upgrade, and lasermax uni. I still have all that stuff for a loaner but know I use pvs15, upgraded my gun and top of the lone ammo for safely surefire light and still have the lasermax. The plan is to let a slaved laser like a cqbl just so I can get more trigger time, at night I want to hunt not shoot. I know I don't need an illuminator for my usage. Thermal is my weak link and need that next, then suppressor, then golf cart. I know where I need to go to improve not guess at what I need. Spend time thinking through it because this stuff is expensive. The result is getting in the middle of 26 big pigs 50+ small ones on foot less than 6 feet away from a small one when I opened up. It was glorious and I couldn't have done that with the m845 but I had the confidence in my equipment I could pull it off safely with what I have now. Best of luck man and welcome to the club.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 12:04:31 PM EST
Thank you rvbrewer625. I know thermal is a key component to successful varmint hunting (whether it be yotes or pigs) but I want to first establish myself in the night vision field and then move onto thermal in a few years. Most thermal optics cost more than NV so I need to save up a lot more to get a quality unit. My father has a couple of magnified NV rifle mounted optics and has successfully taken a few coyotes over the years with those setups. Honestly though I'm more fascinated by the "tactical" side of firearm employment and would like to become proficient operating my suppressed SBR during lowlight hours, while maximizing its potential. I will use whatever unit I end up with to hunt varmints, but again that won't be more than a couple times per year. Thank you for your feedback though - I'm jealous of your PVS15's....
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 4:55:22 PM EST
My set up is for home defense, so from that perspective, I am running an OTAL with a SF Vampire head for IR illum. I run a SF tape switch but will soon upgrade to a prog TAPS. So if you got the new OTAL-C, with a SF Vampire, and a TAPS programmable switch, you'd have a nice system for approx 850 bucks.

Don't know of you saw those threads, but if you add a 1/2" or 5/8" riser under your rifle mounted RDS, you can also use your RDS reticle (on night setting) for passive (tactical) shooting, or hit the illum for hunting. With this in mind, you don't need to dump a lot of bucks into a LAM, IMHO. You have the option of either using a laser pointer or the RDS reticle, (with or without illum), in conjunction with a helmet-mounted MNVD.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 7:23:52 PM EST
Sounds like you have a pretty clear vision of what you are looking for. Search the posted NV gear thread and see how other people have stuff set up. Some are very creative and may be a very close match to what you are thinking of. Also a call to tnvc would be helpful since they focus on selling for the use you describe.
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