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Posted: 5/16/2005 6:57:33 PM EDT
As far as small arms go, we have three choices. Direct gas. indirect gas(piston), and some form of delayed blowback. Now which one has proven itself the most reliable from a historical standpoint? This is your chance to argue for your favorite operating system and firearm. Do your worst!
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:07:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 7:07:59 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]
Dead nuts reliable day-in-day-out?

Indirect (gas piston).........think AK.



Course I have 1 AK and 2 AR's and 2 lowers waiting on uppers, so I don't think the direct gas system is complete sh*t either.



WIZZO
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:14:22 PM EDT
Mauser M98
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:27:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 7:32:48 PM EDT by 44-Canon]
The truth is, it all depends on the gun. Their is no way around that. Direct gas systems are definatley a no go in general, but standard indirect blow-back is also a shortcoming compared to pressure opened action such as roller-lock and roller-bolt which tend to work wonders in handguns and small rifles.
In direct gas systems seam to be the way to go with rifles while pressure actions seam to be the way to go with handguns. Unfortunatley, these are both rather expensive types of actions and while gas systems can be made affordable for rifles to a certain dagree, pressure blow-back actions are generally very expensive and most people are not willing to pay the price. The only pressure action handgun I know of that is affordable is the CZ-52, and that's only because it's Cold War era Surplus that hasn't been made for half a century.
If you want to see what that sort of action normally goes for, take a peak at some of HKs roller-bolt handguns.
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:29:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 7:30:37 PM EDT by mobius]
any of the military bolt action firearms..........those are the most reliable fireams in history. no moving parts to break, no gas system...... you can't get any more reliable then that.
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:34:06 PM EDT
I think he was reffering to autos in the sense that he only mentioned auto actions and bolt-actions seam to go without saying.
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:39:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Dead nuts reliable day-in-day-out?

Indirect (gas piston).........think AK.



Course I have 1 AK and 2 AR's and 2 lowers waiting on uppers, so I don't think the direct gas system is complete sh*t either.



WIZZO





+1 for indirect(AK)
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 7:55:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 7:55:39 PM EDT by jquillen1985]

Originally Posted By 44-Canon:
The truth is, it all depends on the gun. Their is no way around that. Direct gas systems are definatley a no go in general, but standard indirect blow-back is also a shortcoming compared to pressure opened action such as roller-lock and roller-bolt which tend to work wonders in handguns and small rifles.
In direct gas systems seam to be the way to go with rifles while pressure actions seam to be the way to go with handguns. Unfortunatley, these are both rather expensive types of actions and while gas systems can be made affordable for rifles to a certain dagree, pressure blow-back actions are generally very expensive and most people are not willing to pay the price. The only pressure action handgun I know of that is affordable is the CZ-52, and that's only because it's Cold War era Surplus that hasn't been made for half a century.
If you want to see what that sort of action normally goes for, take a peak at some of HKs roller-bolt handguns.



I thought almost all handguns are blowback(pressure) operated. I don't mean to derail my thread. Keep discussing.
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 8:55:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:

Originally Posted By 44-Canon:
The truth is, it all depends on the gun. Their is no way around that. Direct gas systems are definatley a no go in general, but standard indirect blow-back is also a shortcoming compared to pressure opened action such as roller-lock and roller-bolt which tend to work wonders in handguns and small rifles.
In direct gas systems seam to be the way to go with rifles while pressure actions seam to be the way to go with handguns. Unfortunatley, these are both rather expensive types of actions and while gas systems can be made affordable for rifles to a certain dagree, pressure blow-back actions are generally very expensive and most people are not willing to pay the price. The only pressure action handgun I know of that is affordable is the CZ-52, and that's only because it's Cold War era Surplus that hasn't been made for half a century.
If you want to see what that sort of action normally goes for, take a peak at some of HKs roller-bolt handguns.



I thought almost all handguns are blowback(pressure) operated. I don't mean to derail my thread. Keep discussing.



The only gas operated handgun I know of is the Desert Eagle.
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 9:33:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 9:37:17 PM EDT by Master_Blaster]

Originally Posted By Boomholzer:

The only gas operated handgun I know of is the Desert Eagle.



Steyr briefly made sold a 9mm gas-op HG back in 1988 called the GB. Was probably the only other 9mm HG that I'm aware of besides the Glock 17 that used 18-rd mags at that time.



Originally, it was in contention for the M9 contract (won by Beretta). Kind of an interesting pistol. I briefly considered getting one, but never did, & that may have been a mistake on my part.

In answer to the question, I'd have to go with indirect gas (delayed blowback works fine but is the pricier of the 2 methods) for rifles & delayed blowback for HG's. Evolution would seem to favor these 2 designs.
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 9:43:33 PM EDT
Think AK and FAL....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 11:08:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:

Steyr briefly made sold a 9mm gas-op HG back in 1988 called the GB. Was probably the only other 9mm HG that I'm aware of besides the Glock 17 that used 18-rd mags at that time.

world.guns.ru/handguns/steyr_gb_cut.jpg

Originally, it was in contention for the M9 contract (won by Beretta). Kind of an interesting pistol. I briefly considered getting one, but never did, & that may have been a mistake on my part.




The GB is a blowback-operated, gas-retarded blowback semi auto pistol. It uses some of the hot powder gases, feed from the barrel into the front part of the slide, to slow down the retraction of the slide before the bullet leave the barrel. This scheme was developed by German engineer Barnitzke at the end of the WW2. The gas brake is formed by the barrel, its bushing and the slide.


Weird.

So, what's the reason behind wanting to slow down the slide movement? guns.ru mentions it reduces recoil, but anything else?
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 11:31:49 PM EDT
M1911 pistol direct blow back. Combat proven for nearly 100 years.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:38:31 AM EDT

I thought almost all handguns are blowback(pressure) operated. I don't mean to derail my thread. Keep discussing.

Pressureised actions are different then direct blow back. Direct blow-back only has the hammer pressure to deal with. Pressure actions have a mechanism that locks up the action and takes a set amount of pressure to open them. The 2 most common are roller-lock and roller bolt. The handguns that I know of that used it were all far more reliable then the 1911A1 but the ammo they used just didn't cut it for their time in comparasent. Times have changed though and the ammo they used ( mostley 9mm and 7.62 Tokarev and similar variants ) which were hole pokers for their time but high velocity and long range, are proving to be highley devistating in the world of JHPs, JSPs etc. and are growing in populearity.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 5:38:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 5:38:43 AM EDT by jquillen1985]
So what's the difference between roller-delayed, roller-locking, and roller-bolt?
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 5:49:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 6:05:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 6:11:04 AM EDT by jquillen1985]
Now I'm just more confused about the trigger assembly! Is it me or is it more complicated than an AR-15 trigger assembly?
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 6:10:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 6:13:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 7:36:06 AM EDT
"Delayed Blowback" gets my vote.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 8:40:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 1:33:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
M1911 pistol direct blow back. Combat proven for nearly 100 years.



M1911's are not direct blowback.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 9:07:11 AM EDT
You fools the mighty M1 Garand!!!
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 1:18:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
You fools the mighty M1 Garand!!!



Which is indirect

WIZZO
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 3:14:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
You fools the mighty M1 Garand!!!



Which is indirect

WIZZO




Yup - as is the M14 - and both are pretty reliable in their own right....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 9:17:23 PM EDT
Most reliable? Dunno. Direct gas, indirect gas, roller-locked, delayed blowback, etc are all about equally reliable if they're made properly and maintained. FYI, in my experience the AR-15 is more reliable than my M1 Garand. I've seen AKs choke on mud and sand. The only malfuncitons in autoloading handguns I've seen were in .22 Buckmarks, 1911s, both 3" and 5", both Colts, both shooting FMJ 230gr. , and a Glock 17.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:11:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:

Originally Posted By Boomholzer:

The only gas operated handgun I know of is the Desert Eagle.



Steyr briefly made sold a 9mm gas-op HG back in 1988 called the GB. Was probably the only other 9mm HG that I'm aware of besides the Glock 17 that used 18-rd mags at that time.

world.guns.ru/handguns/steyr_gb_cut.jpg

Originally, it was in contention for the M9 contract (won by Beretta). Kind of an interesting pistol. I briefly considered getting one, but never did, & that may have been a mistake on my part.

In answer to the question, I'd have to go with indirect gas (delayed blowback works fine but is the pricier of the 2 methods) for rifles & delayed blowback for HG's. Evolution would seem to favor these 2 designs.



The HK P7 squeezecocking pistol is also gas operated.
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 11:50:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2005 11:52:31 PM EDT by abri]

Originally Posted By Alien:

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:

Originally Posted By Boomholzer:

The only gas operated handgun I know of is the Desert Eagle.



Steyr briefly made sold a 9mm gas-op HG back in 1988 called the GB. Was probably the only other 9mm HG that I'm aware of besides the Glock 17 that used 18-rd mags at that time.

world.guns.ru/handguns/steyr_gb_cut.jpg

Originally, it was in contention for the M9 contract (won by Beretta). Kind of an interesting pistol. I briefly considered getting one, but never did, & that may have been a mistake on my part.

In answer to the question, I'd have to go with indirect gas (delayed blowback works fine but is the pricier of the 2 methods) for rifles & delayed blowback for HG's. Evolution would seem to favor these 2 designs.



The HK P7 squeezecocking pistol is also gas operated.



The P7 is not gas operated, but gas retarded (somekind of delayed blowback using the pressured gas from barrel).
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 7:46:20 AM EDT
gas piston is the most reliable operating system
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:42:11 AM EDT
It depends on the actual rifle, not the "operating system". To say, in broad strokes, that a piston system is automatically more reliable than a direct system is somewhat naive. Take an AK, make the receiver smaller, getting rid of all the clearances for dirt and crap. Will it be as reliable? Of course not, it will be more sensitive to sand/dirt/ etc in the receiver, which is the cause of 99% of malfunctions in the field (assuming that the magazines work).

Do you think anyone will tell you that the piston-operated SA80 is more reliable than an M16?
The M60 is piston operated, and look how much it was loved by the users.
The G36 is piston operated, and it had/has some serious issues (that had nothing to do with the operating system per se, but you use a RIFLE, not just a piston, or a bolt, or whatever).

Why is a piston system "superior" to a direct system? Because it's cleaner? Yes, it's cleaner. Does it make a REAL WORLD difference? Hardly. It has been proven time and time again that you can shoot thousands and thousands of rounds through an M16 with no cleaning before you start having issues, and that just doesn't happen, ever, in any military situation.

Most of the issues (if not all) with the M16 have to do with old, worn out magazines, and sand getting into the receiver. The gas system has nothing to do with it. A lot of people "know" that a G36 is more reliable than an M16, because it has a piston. How does the receiver handle sand/mud getting into it, like the AK does? Does it have ultra wide clearances and channels? No. But the magic piston system will make it sand/mud resistant.

The most reliable system is still the AK, but the piston is not the reason for it.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:18:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911ar-15:
<snip>
The most reliable system is still the AK, but the piston is not the reason for it.



I agree that the operating systems is not the be-all end-all of reliable firearms, but you will also have to realize that the AK was designed from the get-go with the idea of a 100% (or 99.999998% since it was designed by humans, after all) reliable rifle, and all other issues were secondary. They wanted first and foremost, a dead nuts reliable rifle, and the generous clearances designed into the AK helped accomplish this.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 1:31:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:

Originally Posted By 1911ar-15:
<snip>
The most reliable system is still the AK, but the piston is not the reason for it.



I agree that the operating systems is not the be-all end-all of reliable firearms, but you will also have to realize that the AK was designed from the get-go with the idea of a 100% (or 99.999998% since it was designed by humans, after all) reliable rifle, and all other issues were secondary. They wanted first and foremost, a dead nuts reliable rifle, and the generous clearances designed into the AK helped accomplish this.

WIZZO



Yes, that's pretty much what I said in my post. It's the clearances that help the AK system handle the crap that gets into the action. Make an AK (somehow) with a direct gas system, and it should still be about the same in reliability.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 7:29:20 PM EDT
I don't think anything is completley reliable everything has its problems, but the AK came damn near close to it. There are others but I would say the AK in my opinion, considering most of the terrorist over there I doubt ever clean their rifles, much less use quality ammunition and they seem to function, I do not see a whole lot of the others standing up to this abuse. Even though I have been fighting my 1st Ar with problems since the day I walked out of the gun shop I still love it and will eventually solve the problems and would not trade it for an AK.
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