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Posted: 10/5/2004 5:10:54 PM EST
American Heritage had an article this month about overrated and underrated rifles.

Their choice for most overrated was the US Springfield 1903.
Reasons:
1) Brittle steel/bad/no heat treatment
2) Magazine cutoff
3) Really just a Mauser not revolutionary

Their choice for most underrated was the FAL.
1) They think America should have chosen it after WWII instead of the M-14

Personally I don't like magazine cutoffs. I have used a sporterized Springfield Elk hunting but did prefer the Ruger I also had instead.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:12:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:15:27 PM EST
Most overrated is the AK.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:18:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Most overrated is the AK.



Who overrates the AK?
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:21:04 PM EST
Most underrated: FAL
Most overrated: G36
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:22:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By shotgun:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Most overrated is the AK.



Who overrates the AK?



Mostly civilian shooters. Its not so reliable to be that much better.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:26:14 PM EST
most over rated Hi POint Carbine Underated is Savage Bolt Guns
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:35:10 PM EST
overrated: M96, I haven't gone to IRaq and I still only shoot my AR15. so haa!
underrated: 9mm carbines - PC9, AR, storm - you pick. people keep hatin' on these (!).....
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 5:49:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By shotgun:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Most overrated is the AK.



Who overrates the AK?



Mostly civilian shooters. Its not so reliable to be that much better.


I can see that. Hell, I KNOW my AK is a beater.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:17:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:25:21 PM EST
Most Over-rated: AR-15
Most Under-rated: Mosin-Nagant

So sick of ARs, and for the money, $70 I am amazed at how solid, reliable and accurate the Mosin-Nagant is. The rifle has no where near the recoil or noise people complain so much about and the round goes where you point it with no effort.

As for the FAL, I agree that it is under-rated when compared to the M-14 and Cetme and Varients however I still dont see why America should have chose it. FAL is great and fun, but to go on a 5 mile run with it? I'll pass, its just to heavy. Galil would be another overated rifle, its inferior to both the AK-47/74 and M-16. Any improvement in one rifle is vastly nullified by the compromise.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:35:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Corbic:
Most Over-rated: AR-15
Most Under-rated: Mosin-Nagant

So sick of ARs, and for the money, $70 I am amazed at how solid, reliable and accurate the Mosin-Nagant is. The rifle has no where near the recoil or noise people complain so much about and the round goes where you point it with no effort.

As for the FAL, I agree that it is under-rated when compared to the M-14 and Cetme and Varients however I still dont see why America should have chose it. FAL is great and fun, but to go on a 5 mile run with it? I'll pass, its just to heavy. Galil would be another overated rifle, its inferior to both the AK-47/74 and M-16. Any improvement in one rifle is vastly nullified by the compromise.



Actually I am surprised how much people attack the AR here, especially considering the name of the forum.
I formerly was a anti-AR guy too, but after looking at the evidence of wounding capability and shooting it for years, I now think the platform is one of the best.

About 9mm carbines, hate them! It is like putting a four cylinder in a Hummvee. I much prefer my carbines in .223 or .308.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 6:42:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:26:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By SS109:
About 9mm carbines, hate them! It is like putting a four cylinder in a Hummvee. I much prefer my carbines in .223 or .308.



Ironicly that is exactly what the Chinese are doing in their Hummer clone.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:42:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By SS109:
It is like putting a four cylinder in a Hummvee.


Nothing wrong with that so long as it's the -right- 4 cylinder. After all, largest truck engine caterpillar makes only has 6 cylinders...
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:42:20 PM EST
I think some of us aren't understanding what overrated means.

I don't think saying the AR is overrated holds much water, for instance. Visit any board (other than this one) and read how often and how viciously it's maligned or called inadquate. That's not overrating.

Overrated, in my book, would fall to a product which is heralded as having superiority it doesn't really posess, given praise it hasn't earned, or priced so that it should live up to the hefty fortune it requires to own one.

With that said, I think the most overrated gun are Kimber 1911's...and yes I have a few. The most underrated gun I think are Taurus semi-autos....and yes I have a few.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:47:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 7:48:52 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By SS109:
American Heritage had an article this month about overrated and underrated rifles.

Their choice for most overrated was the US Springfield 1903.
Reasons:
1) Brittle steel/bad/no heat treatment
2) Magazine cutoff
3) Really just a Mauser not revolutionary

Their choice for most underrated was the FAL.
1) They think America should have chosen it after WWII instead of the M-14

Personally I don't like magazine cutoffs. I have used a sporterized Springfield Elk hunting but did prefer the Ruger I also had instead.



First Place: HK XM-8 & G36 by association
Bullshit marketing at it's best... HK outright lies by saying that the XM-8 can do certain things that the AR can't, when the AR *CAN* do those exact things (like swap uppers)...

Also, the entire contention that a floating short-stroke piston action is superior to the AR-style direct-gas system is , that's a whole 'nother thread, though...

Runners Up: M14 and AK47

Although various old farts will swear by the M14, it remeins one of (if not THE) shortest lived service rifles in US history. Too much cartridge (uncontrollable on FA, long follow-up time, etc), poor ergonomics, and that wood stock with the associated maintanance/bedding issues...

Why nominate the AK? Isn't it the most widespread assault weapon in the world? Well yes. But the fact that Angola, Egypt, Afganhistan, and the like use them does not speak for the 'merits' of the weapon. Experience in Iraq, including first hand reports by a USMC Major who is also a member here, indicates that they are hardly as 'reliable' as they are proported to be... They're innacurate, and the 47 & M variants use an extremely poor cartridge which not only makes this worse, but creates a severe bullet-drop problem that greatly limits effective range... I own one, they're fun, but it is hardly worth the cult following it has garnered....

The AK74 and newer variants are vastly improved, mainly by dumping the obselete 30cal round... I'm not ripping the AK74 here, for exactly that reason... However, I do consider the AK47 and AKM to be overrated...
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:54:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Most overrated: Anything in that damn .17HMR caliber.......so tired of hearing about them in the mags.



+1. It's neat that we have a new rimfire caliber, but the per round cost is as much as 9mm!

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:55:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Corbic:

Originally Posted By SS109:
About 9mm carbines, hate them! It is like putting a four cylinder in a Hummvee. I much prefer my carbines in .223 or .308.



Ironicly that is exactly what the Chinese are doing in their Hummer clone.



My four cylinder puts down 250 ft lbs of torque.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:21:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:

Originally Posted By Corbic:

Originally Posted By SS109:
About 9mm carbines, hate them! It is like putting a four cylinder in a Hummvee. I much prefer my carbines in .223 or .308.



Ironicly that is exactly what the Chinese are doing in their Hummer clone.



My four cylinder puts down 250 ft lbs of torque.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...


My lugnuts require more torque that that
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:36:55 PM EST
Over rated: any H&K auto rifle
Underated: Savage bolt guns.

F A Ls were used by over 90 countries and are still in service as an MBR. That is hardly underated.
There isn't a damned thing that any H&K auto rifle can do that one of my F A Ls can't do for a fraction of the cost.
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 8:40:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Maddogkiller:
There isn't a damned thing that any H&K auto rifle can do that one of my F A Ls can't do for a fraction of the cost.



Oh yeah? Try being a pain in the ass to field stripp and clean!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:43:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Corbic:

Originally Posted By Maddogkiller:
There isn't a damned thing that any H&K auto rifle can do that one of my F A Ls can't do for a fraction of the cost.



Oh yeah? Try being a pain in the ass to field stripp and clean!



Yeah the G3 does that very well. Everytime a friend buys one I have to show them how to wrestle the bolt and carrier back together. Wouldn't want to do that in a sandstorm...
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 5:14:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Maddogkiller:
Over rated: any H&K auto rifle
Underated: Savage bolt guns.

F A Ls were used by over 90 countries and are still in service as an MBR. That is hardly underated.
There isn't a damned thing that any H&K auto rifle can do that one of my F A Ls can't do for a fraction of the cost.



+1

I still dont know why so many people want to piss on the FAL. Reliable, more than accurate enough, super easy to clean....whats not to like?
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:10:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:39:01 AM EST
c+r
overrated german 98's
underrated mosin's any breed

bolt guns
over rated-remingtons
underrated- savage

MBR's
overrated- any HK
underrated-all about equal

carbine/assualt rifles
overrated- AR/m16
underated-ak/akm variants
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:38:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:40:58 AM EST
SteyrAUG...the gun not the boardmember
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 5:15:31 PM EST
Overated= definately HK, AK, Mauser 98, Ruger 10/22

Underated= AR 15. THink about it, there is more shit talk about the AR than any other weapon I can think of. Just go to any other forum than our own here, and you will see. But the funny thing is, the few people who say my AR is a piece of shit and I let them shoot it always walk away saying, "WOW!! I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THESE!!" Dislike is primarily based on ignorance.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 5:56:56 PM EST
Overrated- Remington Shotguns & Semi-Auto rifles, most 1911 handguns, M14
Underrated- Kimber Rifles, Steyr Rifles, HKs

Chris
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 6:15:22 PM EST
Over - M14
Under - Galil

One of my Norinco AKs has almost 10,000 thru it. I'll let you know when and if I ever clean it. With a kobra sight on it I would grab it before any of my AR's if I knew I wouldn't be able to clean my AR after a couple hundred rounds.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:25:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By Corbic:

Originally Posted By Maddogkiller:
There isn't a damned thing that any H&K auto rifle can do that one of my F A Ls can't do for a fraction of the cost.



Oh yeah? Try being a pain in the ass to field stripp and clean!



Yeah the G3 does that very well. Everytime a friend buys one I have to show them how to wrestle the bolt and carrier back together. Wouldn't want to do that in a sandstorm...






Ya, no shit.

FAL's hard to field strip and clean? WTF are you talking about.

Never had any trouble stripping or cleaning any of mine.

Almost as easy as an AK.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:28:55 PM EST
He was saying the one thing about HK is they are a pain in the ass to clean over a FAL
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:28:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hokie:
SteyrAUG...the gun not the boardmember




Ditto. Finally got to shoot one after hearing the hype for years.

It was ok, but definetely not all that I heard it was cracked up to be.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:50:16 PM EST
I like my Nagants and all but shoot it about 300 times and you literally have to start smacking the bolt open and closed. They seem to gum up really fast, something that I don't have a problem with on my Mausers or my enfields.

Really hard to under rate a rifle that sells for about $90 but the fit and finish and attention to detail is not there on the Nagants and is evident in the Mausers.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:20:49 PM EST
If you’re in a Russian winter you will praise that low spec stuff! One of the major issues the Germans had was the fit and finish on there weapons was so tight that the weapons would freeze and lock up. Big issue on the Mauser, MP-40 and MG-34. The Russians had no problems because the workmanship was to such a lose standard. This is another reason why the MG-42 came about, loser tolerances.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:45:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Runners Up: M14 and AK47

Although various old farts will swear by the M14, it remeins one of (if not THE) shortest lived service rifles in US history. Too much cartridge (uncontrollable on FA, long follow-up time, etc), poor ergonomics, and that wood stock with the associated maintanance/bedding issues...



Poor ergonomics? The ergonomics of the '14 are superior to the '16 as well as the FAL and G-3.

In NRA Highpower competition, AR-15 users will even place the stock on top of the shoulder in off hand. You can get away with this due to light recoil, but you wouldn't need to resort to such positions if the AR had ergonomics equal to the '14. ARs do not have a reputation for good ergonomis among competition shooters. Futher, the AR's ergonomics makes for poor weapon retention in hand to hand combat.

The reason for the pistol grip -- as well as the high mounted sights (more poor ergs in my book) is the strait line stock. Basically, AR ergs are what you get when you design a rifle around an inline stock. and this applies as well to the AK, FAL, G-3, etc.


Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Why nominate the AK? Isn't it the most widespread assault weapon in the world? Well yes. But the fact that Angola, Egypt, Afganhistan, and the like use them does not speak for the 'merits' of the weapon. Experience in Iraq, including first hand reports by a USMC Major who is also a member here, indicates that they are hardly as 'reliable' as they are proported to be... They're innacurate, and the 47 & M variants use an extremely poor cartridge which not only makes this worse, but creates a severe bullet-drop problem that greatly limits effective range... I own one, they're fun, but it is hardly worth the cult following it has garnered....
...



The grass is always (usually?) greener on the other side of the fence.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:57:47 PM EST
The idea that the Mauser 98 is overrated is one of the strangest I've heard. It was a trendsetter, and modern Masuer 98 decendents remain the top of the line as far as bolt actions go. The Mosin Nagant was basically a poor knock-off.

Obviously ARs are underrated; there is plenty of hate directed at them, yet all in all they are perhaps the best modern assault rifle.

I nominate the SIG 550 series as most overrated. I've never used one, but based on all the lust people have for them, it is probably a piece of crap compred to its rep.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:02:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Corbic:
If you’re in a Russian winter you will praise that low spec stuff! One of the major issues the Germans had was the fit and finish on there weapons was so tight that the weapons would freeze and lock up. Big issue on the Mauser, MP-40 and MG-34. The Russians had no problems because the workmanship was to such a lose standard. This is another reason why the MG-42 came about, loser tolerances.



I believe that this is a myth. I know for a fact that PPsh-41s jammed up in the Russian winter.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:20:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:
The idea that the Mauser 98 is overrated is one of the strangest I've heard. It was a trendsetter, and modern Masuer 98 decendents remain the top of the line as far as bolt actions go. The Mosin Nagant was basically a poor knock-off.

Obviously ARs are underrated; there is plenty of hate directed at them, yet all in all they are perhaps the best modern assault rifle.

I nominate the SIG 550 series as most overrated. I've never used one, but based on all the lust people have for them, it is probably a piece of crap compred to its rep.

\\


how do you figure the mosin is a knock off?? 2 totally different actions. 98's are way to overrated,,,,why do you think even shitty ones are $$$$$$,,,,my german mauser sucks action wise,,and fit and finish is no where near some of the other mausers,enfiled,mosins i have!
hell,my yugo m48 is 3 times the mauser the german 98 is!
i agree the mosin,,is prolly the toughest bolt gun in the world,,,,id buttstroke a rhino with and not worry
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:08:27 AM EST
I haven't shot enough guns to judge any of this so I'll just watch
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:14:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 7:16:21 AM EST by DonS]

Originally Posted By protus:
how do you figure the mosin is a knock off?? 2 totally different actions. 98's are way to overrated




The Mosin's bolt and trigger design were such as to avoid Mauser patents. Otherwise it is pretty much a copy of the '98s fore fathers.

The strength and safety of the 98 is superior to all actions of its day. You have to get to the Weatherby actions and the likes of the Remington 700 to bypass it in strength or intrinsic accuracy (although I kinda like the cone breach of the 1903/early Win. M-70, despite it reduction in strength/safety). And many serious users would still opt for a Mauser action over anything else today.

The Mosin is just a C&R piece, a decent rifle at a good price, but basically a Mauser derivitive that went nowhere beyond Russian/ComBloc service rifle status.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:25:31 AM EST
The Nagant dates back to 1891 and is a independent design from the Mauser. At that time Russia could have cared less about patents.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:51:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Corbic:
The Nagant dates back to 1891 and is a independent design from the Mauser. At that time Russia could have cared less about patents.



Haha! What do you mean "at that time"!
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:47:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 4:58:41 PM EST by DonS]

Originally Posted By Corbic:
The Nagant dates back to 1891 and is a independent design from the Mauser. At that time Russia could have cared less about patents.



The Mauser predates 1891--the '98 was just the perfected design. And yes, the Mosin was influenced by patents.

This link has the actual Nagant patent for the gas seal revolver:

www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m%20o/a%20nagant%20gb.htm

And here is a quote:


The M-91 rifle bolt is identical to the bolts used on all Mosin-Nagant rifles (except the M-91/30 sniper variant with the turn-down bolt). It has been called overly complicated in design, but this was largely due to its creator trying to avoid infringing on the Mauser patent.


The web site the above quote came from:

www.russianwarrior.com/STMMain.htm?1890weapon_M91infantrypict2.htm&1
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:15:35 PM EST
I dont seen Influence as to be a "knock off" or a clone. The springfield is clearly a "knock-off" "clone" while the Mosin is different. Starters it doesnt have a saftly.. in the normal sence.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 6:11:53 PM EST
I agree, the Mosin Nagant is its own design.
The safety is primitive but effective.

I do agree that the Mosin is under-rated. I have an M-44, but I think I will get a 91/30 next.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:31:52 PM EST
get an m39. that will kick the shit out of any mauser other than the swedes.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:43:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Runners Up: M14 and AK47

Although various old farts will swear by the M14, it remeins one of (if not THE) shortest lived service rifles in US history. Too much cartridge (uncontrollable on FA, long follow-up time, etc), poor ergonomics, and that wood stock with the associated maintanance/bedding issues...



Poor ergonomics? The ergonomics of the '14 are superior to the '16 as well as the FAL and G-3.

In NRA Highpower competition, AR-15 users will even place the stock on top of the shoulder in off hand. You can get away with this due to light recoil, but you wouldn't need to resort to such positions if the AR had ergonomics equal to the '14. ARs do not have a reputation for good ergonomis among competition shooters. Futher, the AR's ergonomics makes for poor weapon retention in hand to hand combat.

The reason for the pistol grip -- as well as the high mounted sights (more poor ergs in my book) is the strait line stock. Basically, AR ergs are what you get when you design a rifle around an inline stock. and this applies as well to the AK, FAL, G-3, etc.

The inline stock & PG are the one thing MISSING from the M-14. I've never shot a match with the AR's stock on top of my shoulder, either, although I've seen folks do it...

The fact is, the old-fashioned hunting rifle stock provides the worst ergonomics possible... From the odd angle of the 'grip' section, to the fact that by placing the stock below the bore axis, muzzle flip is enhanced...

If the M14 was so superior, NRA folks would actually still use them... Very few do...

The AR also happens to position itself just perfect for mounting optics, due to the high-over-bore sights...



Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Why nominate the AK? Isn't it the most widespread assault weapon in the world? Well yes. But the fact that Angola, Egypt, Afganhistan, and the like use them does not speak for the 'merits' of the weapon. Experience in Iraq, including first hand reports by a USMC Major who is also a member here, indicates that they are hardly as 'reliable' as they are proported to be... They're innacurate, and the 47 & M variants use an extremely poor cartridge which not only makes this worse, but creates a severe bullet-drop problem that greatly limits effective range... I own one, they're fun, but it is hardly worth the cult following it has garnered....
...



The grass is always (usually?) greener on the other side of the fence.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 7:44:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By Corbic:
If you’re in a Russian winter you will praise that low spec stuff! One of the major issues the Germans had was the fit and finish on there weapons was so tight that the weapons would freeze and lock up. Big issue on the Mauser, MP-40 and MG-34. The Russians had no problems because the workmanship was to such a lose standard. This is another reason why the MG-42 came about, loser tolerances.



I believe that this is a myth. I know for a fact that PPsh-41s jammed up in the Russian winter.



Physics would contradict you there...

Metal SHRINKS in the cold, it doesn't expand...
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 8:45:52 PM EST
Nothing to do with shrinking or expanding. What happens is moisture gets into every crack and seem and then freezes, expanding and making the "tounge on light pole" trick happen. This caused parts to "Stick" thus jamming up. PPSH has its own sets of problems. The effects of cold on weapons, and the sticking parts, is one of the reasons why the US military's doctrine on dealing with the winter is if the weapon is already cold leave it in the cold. Germans in WW2 were know for bringing the weapons into their tents and warming them, fearing the cold would ruin the rifle. Bad-move. Check out the book Lost Victories, it also mentions how the Germans loved the SVT-40 for some reason.
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