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Posted: 8/20/2017 9:30:39 AM EST
I bought a couple of guns Friday from a guy that I know that is moving away. He called me last evening and said he had a "old military rifle" he forgot about.

I went there this morning and he comes out with a 1948 Izhevsk M44....I bought it for $60.00.

At first glance I saw the laminated stock and figured refurb but when I got it home and started looking it over and realized it might be a "bring-back" due to it's worn condition, full serials, and lack of a import mark.

I called him back and asked where he got it and he said his Uncle brought it back from either Korea or Vietnam, he could not remember which because he was in both wars. His Aunt gave it to him when he passed.....So much for the "story". It is what it is. All or part could be BS for all I know.

That said it shows no evidence of being refurbed as you can tell by the blue that went to brown. There was a good bit of rust under the wood that resulted in pitting when i removed it, nothing deep but again no sign that it had been refurbed, more like moisture trapped under the wood.

The laminated stock shows no refurb marks and only traces of shellac remain. Most of the stock marks are worn down from use but no strike-outs like on the refurb laminated M44 stocks.

All serials match and are full serials that match the receiver.

1948 tang date.

The bore is dark but not bad at all.

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Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:39:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 9:39:53 AM EST by Bumblebee_Bob]
Sweet!


But you do this just to make us hate you more and more, don't you? You thrive on our tears of jealousy, right.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:50:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 9:51:33 AM EST by pgaplayerless]
This gun has been refurbished at one point. Other than what looks like to be refurb mark right on the barrel shank between the production year and the serial number, laminate stocks were never used in mosin production. They have been introduced circa 1950s into the refurb program.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:02:08 AM EST
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Originally Posted By pgaplayerless:
This gun has been refurbished at one point. Other than what looks like to be refurb mark right on the barrel shank between the production year and the serial number, laminate stocks were never used in mosin production. They have been introduced circa 1950s into the refurb program.
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Yep, you are correct on the mark....That's a first.

Laminated stocks were used in production and not just the refurb process.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:19:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 10:24:57 AM EST by pgaplayerless]
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Originally Posted By 1srelluc:


Yep, you are correct on the mark....That's a first.

Laminated stocks were used in production and not just the refurb process.
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Your assertion that laminate stocks were used in Mosin production are neither supported by observed examples ( none are found with factory acceptance marks that were required and present on all hardwood stock) or actually achrived documentation brought to light by current foremost researcher on Mosin production, see here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?815970-For-the-owners-of-the-early-beech-laminated-stocks-M38-M44

The serial number font of the parts also look bit too funky to be original but better picture of the S/N on the shank would be required to make sure something funky didn't happen there either.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:26:56 AM EST
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Originally Posted By pgaplayerless:


Your assertion that laminate stocks were used in Mosin production are neither supported by observed examples ( none are found with factory acceptance marks that were required and present on all hardwood stock) or actually achrived documentation brought to light by current foremost researcher on Mosin production, see here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?815970-For-the-owners-of-the-early-beech-laminated-stocks-M38-M44

The serial number font of the parts also look bit too funky to be original but better picture of the S/N on the shank would be required to make sure something funky didn't happen there either.
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I read that, and while I applaud the guy's effort there is a lot of speculation involved but be that as it may in the case of my stock I suspect it replaced the original stock given the refurb mark on the barrel shank. It just makes sense. If the stock had a refurb mark it may have been worn away from use like some of the others.

Someone on GB mentioned the serial fonts but I can't tell the difference and there is no evidence of scrubbing. The barrel shank is right worn from use and the markings are not all that crisp but I'll defer to his opinion. Still and all, not bad for a non-import.....I'm happy any way it shakes-out. I love it's "look".

The same guy on GB also agreed that it saw use somewhere so he thinks the "story" may be plausible but of course we will never know for sure so it's just a story. One thing about it is if the Russian guy is correct and all laminate stocks were done in the 50s it helps narrow down what war it may have been involved in.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:58:40 PM EST
I would not say there is much speculation at all in Ratnik's information. He's actually one man that if you talk to him will not speculate on his own. He will only tell you what he knows based on observed physical samples or information that he uncovered in his archive research. What we factually know is that a laminated Mosin stock has never been discovered with factory acceptance marks...neither from Tula or Izhevsk. And so far no archived documentation have come up confirming use of laminates in production either.

So while all this doesn't rule out the possibility of laminated stock being used in production, it does certainly prove there is zero evidence supporting the claim that laminated were used in production. So far it's one of those often repeated urban legends like /1\ being "DDR" mark and "MO" being Ministry of Defense mark.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:06:58 PM EST
The all knowing has spoken, don't question him.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:40:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 2:41:31 PM EST by 1srelluc]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
The all knowing has spoken, don't question him.
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Other than the condescending tone (no surprise there) he was correct for the most part. I don't mind admitting I was mistaken, that's how you learn, meh, it's still a M44 with a lot of character.

I still say the jury is out on the whole laminated stock thing....One Russian's interpretation does not fact make.

That said I'm sure glad I sold my "East German" 91/30 refurb for a nice premium before it was speculated it was just another refurb mark and peeps ran with it till the bottom dropped-out on price.

As far as MOs go they have always been a mystery. I'll keep my quad-dated MO.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:54:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1srelluc:


Other than the condescending tone (no surprise there) he was correct for the most part. I don't mind admitting I was mistaken, that's how you learn, meh, it's still a M44 with a lot of character.

I still say the jury is out on the whole laminated stock thing....One Russian's interpretation does not fact make.

That said I'm sure glad I sold my "East German" 91/30 refurb for a nice premium before it was speculated it was just another refurb mark and peeps ran with it till the bottom dropped-out on price.

As far as MOs go they have always been a mystery. I'll keep my quad-dated MO.
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A broken clock is right twice a day too...yeah, he knows his Mosin Nagants pretty well, but it machts nichts to me. He is a proven liar. Plus I just don't like him. The Sniper So Rare stuff spoke all I need to know abut this "persons" character.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 2:56:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 2:57:17 PM EST by pgaplayerless]
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
The all knowing has spoken, don't question him.
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Save the drama for somebody who cares. You buddy RyanE says the same exact thing:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?433617-Stock-refinished&p=3693201#post3693201

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?398981-Laminated-M38&p=3341746#post3341746

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?398981-Laminated-M38&p=3341689#post3341689
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:01:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 3:01:44 PM EST by 98kGuy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
I just am putting out the fact that everything you say must be taken with a grain of salt, and we all know why. Everything you post one must look at through the prism of who you are.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:06:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 3:08:18 PM EST by pgaplayerless]
You can rationalize your unhealthy fixation however you want. I'm out.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:12:12 PM EST
Cool, bye.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 3:53:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2017 3:57:03 PM EST by 1srelluc]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Reading through those I noticed that Vic does not agree with Ryan E. Of course that was 2015 so maybe he has changed his mind by now.

One thing I'm going with was my first notion when I saw the rifle....If it's laminated, it's a refurb.

That said I'd love to see someone come along with a acceptance stamped laminated M44 stock and gin everything up.

One thing that my rifle does suggest (not prove) is that refurbs were not just done and packed away but sent out to client states and used.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 8:37:12 PM EST
A 1948 never went through the war so the refurb process would likely have been different to what the masses of 91/30s as they would not have needed all the work. I have a 1947 and it only had a very light refurb, basically original except the stock and butplate.
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I also have a few that were never refurbed and were issued and used. If I remember correctly, they came from Albania.

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As for the lammy stocks, they did make some for the M38 but those are made with a different type of lammy process.
OP, you found a few more nice rifles so all is good.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 1:28:09 PM EST
My favorite M44 is a common 1944 Izhvesk. It does not show any refurbish marks and all numbers match. It has a Chinese bolt that is numbered to match. It came here during the flood of Albanian Mosins.

I think it would reasonable to conclude that the carbine was Russian aid to China and then subsequently sent to Albania because the godless commie Chinese and the equally godless commie Albanians were tight buddies. Albania has been the source for many Chinese SKSs in the past few years, too.
Link Posted: 8/23/2017 7:19:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2017 7:20:23 PM EST by 1srelluc]
Were any of the Albanian M-44s 91/30s not import marked?
Link Posted: 8/24/2017 4:51:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1srelluc:
Were any of the Albanian M-44s 91/30s not import marked?
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Cole's brought in bunch of M-44s from one of the balkan countries, can't remember which specifically alanian, romania or bulgaria?. Some lacked import marks completely, some were just marked on the bayo mount.
Link Posted: 8/25/2017 10:22:14 AM EST
Anything imported after 1968 legally needs to be imported marked. I'm sure there were some that were missed.
The Albanian m44 I have, has a small discrete one on the bottom on the bayonet lug.
Link Posted: 8/27/2017 6:20:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Lee-online:
Anything imported after 1968 legally needs to be imported marked. I'm sure there were some that were missed.
The Albanian m44 I have, has a small discrete one on the bottom on the bayonet lug.
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I checked...Nothing.
Link Posted: 8/27/2017 10:15:01 PM EST
Bringback 44's are out there . I picked up a Russian brought back from Vietnam years ago. It was rougher than yours and had a bore like a sewer. It was a 45 dated and looked used hard.
Link Posted: 8/27/2017 10:16:46 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1srelluc:


Other than the condescending tone (no surprise there) he was correct for the most part. I don't mind admitting I was mistaken, that's how you learn, meh, it's still a M44 with a lot of character.

I still say the jury is out on the whole laminated stock thing....One Russian's interpretation does not fact make.

That said I'm sure glad I sold my "East German" 91/30 refurb for a nice premium before it was speculated it was just another refurb mark and peeps ran with it till the bottom dropped-out on price.

As far as MOs go they have always been a mystery. I'll keep my quad-dated MO.
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I am waiting for the definite answer on MO's , I have a triple dated
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