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Posted: 9/16/2004 11:24:01 AM EDT
I don't use my 12 ga for home defense anymore. One reason is I don't have a light for it and the other is I'm too good with it. I'm good with my revolver too but I know that if I have to shoot an intruder, there's a good chance the perp will live (even with a good COM shot.) Now, with the shotgun, the same shot will probably kill the guy. So do you think I'll get over the moral dilemma if someone DOES break in or should I just stick with my wheelgun? Don't get me wrong, I WILL pull the trigger if I need to and .357 will probably be lethal with a good shot but the 12 gauge is more final. Do you guys get what I'm saying or am I a dumbass?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:42:10 AM EDT
Don't worry...if there really IS an intruder in your house, your asshole will be puckered so tight you could not drive a 16d nail up it, your hands will shake, your heart will be pounding, and you will have tunnel vision and maybe tunnel hearing. I'd be willing to bet you won't be NEARLY as good wioth either gun then as when on the range!

Besides which, this shit ain't about "fighting fair"...damn, man, the guy is in your home...nuke his ass if you need to. I think you may have been watching too much TV.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:01:04 PM EDT
I think his issue here is that he's concerned about having to deal with the fact that he just killed somebody if he used the shotty, and by using a firearm that he's less proficient with, while he would still pull the trigger ... maybe, just maybe the intruder will live after all and he won't have to deal with the moral dilema of having killed somebody.

If the above is correct, I see where you're coming from. HOWEVER, the intruder could have every intention in the world to kill you without hesitation. Fail to accept that, and you may as well invest in a coffin and a burial plot now.

Not only that, but say he doesn't die when you shoot him. Say he goes to jail for a while, and becomes Hell bent on revenge. You're fucked if/when he gets out.

Better to just kill him.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:19:50 PM EDT
in texas concealed handgun classes instructors tell you point blank, and i quote:

"You're in a lot better legal position after a shooting incident if there's just one guy telling the story."

in texas it's legal to nail a guy in your driveway burgling your pickup after dark.

for real. ask one of the attorneys here.

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 4:59:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 5:00:25 AM EDT by Zoub]
Of all the guns out there, a handgun is truly designed for killing another man. It turns your "hand" into a "gun."

To me the use of any weapon is final. As a kid I saw a guys head turned to "goo" by a 12 guage at close range. Made a lasting impression on me. Very final, very effective.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:53:39 AM EDT
If some dude's in your house and you wing him with a handgun round he's still capable of return fire (if he's armed)......shoot to kill man.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:23:26 AM EDT
Yankee shooting an intruder in the house................BANG!
Southerner shooting an intruder in the house..........BANG! BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!........honey, hand me my other mag!!!!!!!!!!!

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 11:37:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 1:03:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike103:
You have no power to kill, only to shoot to stop. If GOD kills the SOB after you stop him that's between GOD and the perp. You have nothing to do with it. MIKE.

There is no moral dilemna in a lawful shooting. An intruder who enters your home has the dilemna, not you. You may have regrets and feelings of guilt, but that is because you are the good guy. If you fail to stop the intruder and he has his way in your home he will have regrets only when he is caught, he'll cry on the stand and apologize to your family, and be very sorry... that he ever got caught.
Load up with good ammo and rest well at night knowing you are the good guy.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 1:47:37 PM EDT
hhmmm..moral decision: who lives, intruder OR wife & kids

No dilema here...wife & kids EVERY time...period.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 2:10:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tommygs:
in texas concealed handgun classes instructors tell you point blank, and i quote:

"You're in a lot better legal position after a shooting incident if there's just one guy telling the story."

in texas it's legal to nail a guy in your driveway burgling your pickup after dark.

for real. ask one of the attorneys here.

As it should be. Everywhere.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:20:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 12:24:55 AM EDT by Mike_Mills]
Temper your "moral dilema" with a legal quandry -

You may only shoot if you are in fear for your life (or that of a loved one,...). If the bad guy is trying to kill YOU, you ARE justified in using DEADLY force. This has been tested in judeo-christian courts of law all over the nation.

If you do not fear for your life, you should not shoot - period! If you do shoot, shoot to KILL, or surely you will be killed.

Never fire warning shots. Never shoot to maim. These are inconsistent with a genuine, immediate fear for one's life. Never discharge your firearm unless you need to use deadly force to preserve your life.

If you have a self-defense firearm, are you capable of killing another in order to defend yourself and those you love from death or greivous bodily harm? You'd better get square with yourself on THAT question - and fast. You should not have a gun for self-defense or try to use a gun for self-defense unless the answr is yes.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:22:37 AM EDT
If you shoot a man, kill him. A crackhead on life support for forty years is a hell of a lot more expensive than a wrongful death civil suit.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:38:45 AM EDT
To quote from the excellent book DEAD OR ALIVE by the great Fred Rexer, Jr."

"Dead men give no testimony. Let the bum's morgue photos speak for him while you're being no-billed by the grand jury."

He knew the job was dangerous when he took it.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 10:38:31 AM EDT
No matter what you do or say on this board it always comes down to buying something. Now I need a surefire forend for my 870. Thanks for the replies (even though it lightend my wallet by a couple hundred bones.)
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:47:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 12:50:48 PM EDT by faris]
An intruder in an occupied home is NOT "normal".
Most intruders upon realizing someone's home want only to escape.
Those who, knowing someone's home, and still keep coming, are DANGEROUS, and are NOT "normal".
You don't trust you and your family's lives and safety to an abnormal stranger.

Under these circumstances, morally and legally it doesn't matter if they live or die.
THEY chose the encounter, and in effect, "punched their own ticket".

Only the very worse fool shoots "to wound" or shoots "to kill".
You shoot to STOP. To stop the person from doing whatever he was doing.
If he lives, morally and legally that's fine, and if he dies, morally and legally that's regrettable, but it was HIS choice, not your's.

How many times have we read about a mortally wounded person who still manages to kill his killer?
Do you really want to allow this abnormal criminal a "fair chance" to take your life?

NEVER ascribe to a victim the wrong doing of a perpetrator. This foolishness is the same mentality that blames the victims of terrorist attacks and rapists. "Well, they MUST have provoked it, somehow".

If you find yourself in a situation where an intruder is advancing in a home they know is occupied, you are under NO legal or moral constraint to give them any benefit by placing your life in the hands of an unknown and abnormal person.

Not using the MOST effect weapon you can handle is in the same vein as using a .22 to defend yourself from a ravenous lion, because you don't want to kill him, just scare him off.

To quote the late, great Bill Jordon, "There is no such thing as shooting someone "just a little. If you HAVE to shoot someone, shoot him GOOD".


Link Posted: 9/18/2004 7:47:10 PM EDT
Between the two weapons (12 Guage Shotgun and 357 Magnum) the shotgun has far greater power. The only issue with a shotgun inside your house might be its length but if you plan to use it in a defensive posture, say in your bedroom, I would use the shotgun because it puts out a pattern and has far greater power.

Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:11:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 8:17:15 AM EDT by OKLA-LAWMAN]
You dont ever shoot to kill. You shoot to stop whatever actions they are doing that are endangering you and your family. You Shoot to save your/their lives. Under those circumstances which would you want? Also take into effect that in actual shooting situations the average well trained police officer actually hits less than 50 percent. If you miss that 357 can go for blocks and blocks after it exits your house. I carry a 45 daily and it is available at night if I need it and I shoot master level with it. My home defense?? A mossberg 590 and a ar 15...I live out in the sticks and the ar is for more dispocing of 4 legged critters.

And now you dont have to buy the sure fire fore end. There are other options. My dept issues the streamloght m3 with a mount..they can be had for about $100 to $115. Botach has the m3X on sale for around $115 plus 19 for the mount. The pelican m6 $45, tape switch 16 and 10 for mount for about
$75 you have a great light that is what is on my home 590.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 4:46:40 PM EDT
Christmas is coming up. Maybe I'll ask Santa for one.
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