(Continued from above)

I got my first Star (.44 Magnum, bought new) in 1974, and acquired two used Stars and one new Rifle Star in the period from 1981-1985.  In those 44 years, I have loaded a bit over 1/4 million rounds of ammo total on these tools.  I'd judge that 200,000 of that quarter million has been on my original .44 Magnum tool, which I am keeping.  I have never broken a part on this tool, but 200,000 rounds over 44 years is in no way comparable to what you do.

Your post has made me realize that I likely look ridiculous to you and probably to many others, in that I appear to be a Mark 7 fanboy who has not yet loaded even a single round using their equipment.  How lame is that?

The reality is that at age 60 I am tired of pulling handles.  Your comments about being an early adopter are spot on from a commercial standpoint, but I'm probably not going to load over 200,000 rounds between now and the day I die.

You speak of ROI.  If I wanted to renew the ammunition manufacturer's license I had 30 years ago, I could recoup my $6000 investment in eleven hours, using the 11,000 once-fired .500 Magnum cases I have on hand.  This is assuming that my Mark 7 tool can make it through 11,000 cycles without breaking.  I freely admit that I don't know if it will, but I am willing to take that chance.

I don't believe it's possible that the Evolution Pro is going to kill or maim me, so the worst case scenario is that my six thousand dollar investment turns out to be a complete waste, and I get nothing for it.  That strikes me as very unlikely, but if it happens, I'll just pretend that I was married for an additional three weeks...

Once again, thanks for the much-needed perspective.

END

I wasnt aware of subscription service. When I first bought one, you would jist call and asked for tech support (who was always busy so you would need to leave msg). They then switch to filtering based on customer type.

Luckily the only issues I have had were: 1. bad connections in the controller box which they replaced and 2. pulley on motor slipping which they replaced.

My second autodrive has been trouble free. So I can’t really complain.

I do not like the idea of "pay for use" customer support. Let us say arbitrarily I have $6,000 in MK7 drive units alone. That doesn't include the presses on them, but still, have to wait in line for support. So after I have spent $10,000 + on a product, you still want me to pay $250 per "Revolution:, or $250 for up to three MK7 Pro's per year.... That tells me they are viewing customer support as a revenue stream. Then I have to wait for up to 24 hours and no support on weekends.

VS:

I call Camdex, they answer the phone, they see my name on caller ID and address me by name, ask how my wife and kids are doing by name. Then I get directly connected to tech support. That is customer support at its highest level. They will spend an hour on the phone with me if I need it, I have never once gotten a bill for tech support from them. The longest I have had to wait for a call back when they were busy is two hours. When you are on the phone they also teach you more about the machines to allow you to better operate and maintain them. Thusly reducing your dependency on them.

I call Forcht, Craig usually answers the phone himself, I ask him a question or two and we are off the phone in five minutes.

To me when I buy the machine, it should include the customer support package for the serviceable lifespan of the equipment. It tells me as the manufacturer of the equipment you believe in it and stands behind it. It is simple as that. If you charge money for customer support then it tells me that you are going to be doing a lot of it and need to recuperate the resources you put into it via user service fees.

You make a valid point: being an early adopter when your livelihood depends on it is not a great strategy.  Putting too many eggs in a basket of unknown quality is just not terribly smart.

But I do not think of the Revolution/Evolution machines as replacements for $25,000-$50,000 Camdex, Ammoload, Bitterroot, etc. equipment.  I see them as a great step forward from the automated versions of the Dillon 1050.  They should fit in well, for example, in a club or other lower volume setting.

And you are right - to an extent - that “pro-sumer” level products are not the kind of thing that a full-out commercial producer should depend on.  But I disagree with your very general “not good enough” label.  Sometimes that’s true, but labeling something that way without any knowledge of how the equipment runs and lasts is short sighted.  I’d suggest “not big enough” for a commercial application might be a better label.  At least until all the data is available...

That’s an interesting point about what machinery a small commercial loader would use. None of those 3 critical points are pertinent to me, but would be if I made a business.

If any form of a 1050 is considered good enough for small time commercial use, I wonder how this new press  compares? No doubt some have already made those comparisons.

Ya the subscription tech support was odd to me, and I immediately thought it must be for higher volume people than I probably ever will be.  I wonder if it’s because the old timey business model for this type of equipment doesn’t work for these new devices with advanced digital sensors and computer controllers.

I’m sure they’ve had to do a lot of thinking about the business model and revenue generation simply in order to get financing like anyone else.  The idea of subscription tech support shouldn’t be shocking though. I mean, you all have computers right?  Did you get the subscription based tech support for it they companies like dell or HP offer?  For a company with more than a couple computers they probably have that service.  To me it just seems to be what they thought was required for their product and business model.

These devices have computers built in.  I don’t know much at all about Camdex loaders and if they are digital or purely analog.  But I do know making digital machines with sensors like the fully automated Mark 7 product is a big challenge compared to making, say, yet another contender for a single stage handloader press.  Modern ACTUAL prospective engineering and computer science would be required.  I often wonder what engineering work went into the cheaper reloading companies presses, and if it was a little bit trial and error, which is ok in some instances.  My background is structural engineering for Boeing’s most recent commercial airliner so I do have some authority in this topic. Over-engineering is an understatement for that dang plane, but “trial and error” or rule of thumb engineering is not tolerated by the families of dead crash victims.  So I’d say the stakes are lower in this equipment compared to the scrutiny and perfection demanded in aerospace.  I could go on with insights but I’d be digressing a bit much.

So the ammo loading market is a very odd one to me. You have big manufactures which are definitely not “reloaders”. But does a place like Hornady make ammo on a Camdex or just their custom machines? Aside from Camdex is there any other company that makes a complete loading solution?

Aside from small commercial “loaders” and any commercial “reloaders”, this company provides, I hope, a good viable option for us reloaders who aren’t retired and want volume.  For decades was not the “reloading” industry catering to the fudd type hunters that shoot “a box of shells” a couple of times per year, and a few other small volume shooters? As the gun world changed, which I’ve noticed a LOT since the late 90’s, the reloading industry seems to lag behind, which makes sense.  Aside from Dillon ($2k) and Camdex ($20-25k) is there anything else in between? The Hornady and RCBS solutions are not what I am in the market for.  As time has gone on for me, and free time dwindles, the Hornady has become increasingly more irritating. Ultra cheap cast and MIM parts are just not what I’m interested in spending my money on.

For me personally I’m excited for the manual Evolution press. The digital components I might get into later.

I am yammering on I know. But this I feel is a pertinent topic on this company’s take on the confluence of the changing market conditions and advances in engineering and production methods.  There seem to be a lot of smaller level attempts to modify the existing Dillon products, but this is the first I’ve ever seen a company attempt to expand the solutions to the new more heterogeneous market.

I am able to type out all these thoughts because right now I am sitting through a 9 hour a day conference of all PowerPoints.

I learned early in my business the hard way about being an early adopter. Luckily as you stated I didn't put all my eggs in one basket and had hedged. I do see some startups trying to get off the ground with a fleet of mk7's, I advise against it. No one really listens to me though, as it is hard to justify $60,000 + for one loader and processor from Camdex when you are just starting up. That is a huge capital expense to swallow. Now I just buy two Camdex processors per year, as soon as one is delivered I order another one. It is just a continuous cycle for me. I am at the point though I just pay for them outright and I don't have to borrow to get them. I figure I will stop when I have a dozen processors in a couple of years.

The one thing businesses that go the Mk7 route is flexibility. You cannot argue with that. The one thing about the MK7 / 1050 combo is there is a large amount of aftermarket support to assist with the weaknesses in the 1050 platform. In a year or two I might revisit the Evolution series, however I want someone else to take the early adopter headaches for me. lol.

Hornady loads on Camdex equipment last time I had heard. They may have changed or updated since then, but I can't speculate beyond what I know.

The Camdex now are all controlled by PLCs. They are all digital with proximity switches and programmable air solenoids. I had one of the first proximity switch based processors vs when they used air switches... It was a huge improvement. I had a small 5 hp compressor dedicated to running the one machine with the old style air logic system and air switches. Now I am running typically a 3 of them off the same compressor and it runs 75% less also. Talk about making the shop nicer to work in as you don't have to deal with an air compressor firing every 5 minutes.

With machines such as this, that aren't "disposable items" in my world ... I rarely want to be the first buyer of a product, or the last.    To each his/her own on that front, all good.  I am grateful some folks are willing to buy and share experiences.

Certainly agree how Mark 7 does or doesn't handle user and machine issues will be critical to long term success......if for no other reason IMO because most of the guys who would be hoping to be upgrading from Red, Green, or Blue machines are used to the royal treatment we receive from those companies for the most part. (even on their $30 dollar products, without being on a first name basis with the owners or customer service folks).

I would say it is exponentially harder to actually consistently produce machines that work and consistently get customer/machine service right, then it is to obtain a patent or write up an investible business plan/revenue model.

I remain interested in how they (both the Evolution models and the company) perform, and do believe there is currently enough of a market demand for this type of reloading system, in this price range, for someone to fill if machines and companies perform.

I hope Mark 7's can leverage their experience producing some components, and their current experience with their targeted part of the reloading community to make it all work .... those experiences should help them.

Obviously my vantage point is of a “pro-Sumer” a bit more than commercial or average joe I suppose. That being said, for some guy like me wanting to upgrade from the Hornady, should I invest $2,300 into the old Dillon machine which would for sure get a few immediate upgrades, or a $2500 mechanism based on the Dillon but uses cnc parts and fixes a few problems supposedly. That’s the condition I’m in.

Also, normally I’d agree on the whole first adopter philosophy, however I’m willing to take one for the team because I’m not too picky when it comes to 1050 derivative machines and also I took advantage of better pricing.  :) For a consumer, and me specifically with awful work hours, I was willing to take the leap! I’ll try to report back with info if I have a chance, but I can’t compare to the dillons having never owned one. I can, however, comment on machine finish, overall fit and finish, and general robustness (the most difficult to really judge) given my experience in engineer. Until then I’m waiting!

You've been reading my mind. Shooting 200 revolver rounds a week in 1971, casting with a two-cavity mold, using a Lyman sizer, and loading on an A2, the reloading industry was indeed "catering to the Fudd type hunters that shoot a box of shells a couple of times per year." Shooting 200 rounds out of a revolver might take an hour or so, but creating those 200 rounds took five to six times that.  It was like writing an extra term paper every week just so I could go shoot for an hour.

The only reliable way to cut loading time to less than shooting time was multiple furnaces, 8- or 10-cavity gang molds, Star lubrisizer, and Star reloading tool. Police departments had been producing practice ammo by following this prescription since the 1930s. Watch this 1938 video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDP8BRSEjrA
13:25 to see 10-cavity Cramer and Star tools in action.

In this age of CAD and CNC machining methods, I've yet to find a "modern" tool that works as reliably and consistently as an 80-year-old Star. I'm hoping these guys are about to give us one, and I'm willing to spend the money to find out...

Yes and you’ve been doing this a good while longer than I have!  In the late 90’s before I had access to a great private land setup with a gallery of steel, my shooting volume was very different. And my ammunition choices were not as “discerning” (wolf, blazer etc). But I want the benefits from reloading and my time just isn’t there to invest. Fortunately for me, as long as this Evolution press can at least perform as good as a Dillon 1050 I’d be happy! I just really like how the drum powder measure has performed in my Hornady, and would like a 1050 with this and some of the other features they’re listing. I have a hard time thinking, after seeing the videos, that the Evolution wouldn’t do better. And I’m doing manual for now. I’ll try to report back and tell how the Dillon RT1500 trimmer does with it in terms of repeatability.

And for many people I know they’d say the slow slow reloading process is therapeutic. For me it is a little bit but not for too long.  I get slow and extra tedious with precision rifle reloading on my Forster coax and K&M arbor.

Ding ding ding!  I hear that a lot, too, and my response is "You don't shoot much."

I, too, am quite willing to prep twenty-odd rifle brass at home, load (and re-load) them on-site at my range with BR hand tools and a Culver measure, and fire test loads for group at 100-300 yards shooting over a chronograph.  I also use this development technique with the .500 Smiths (at generally shorter ranges), using an old P200 Metal-Matic clamped to a folding table to seat and crimp bullets.

But once I've found a load combo that I like and that performs well, knocking out a bunch of them is just donkey work, and Lord knows there's more than enough of that in my life already...

Since you don't own a 1050 and have ordered an Evo, this doesn't apply to you, but anyone reading this that already owns a Dillon press should know that you can get a Hornady case activated powder drop die and Hornady drum powder measure and put them in your Dillon's toolhead.  I was about to do this on my 1050 when I saw the Evolution demo'ed at SHOT.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/00005050073/case-activated-powder-drop

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/00005050130/lock-n-load-bench-rest-powder-measure

Interesting, however, even though I passed 30 at least 10 years before John, I'm still able to bend down to pick up my brass, thank you very much.  While it's slick, I think the press system is a bit too automated for my tastes. even after handloading close to 200,000rds on both my 550B and XL650, I still enjoy making ammo by hand.  Not really interested in watching a machine make it for me.  In addition, because I handload 16 different calibers, the cost of the whole setup would be enormous.  I'll just stick with my 650 & Casefeeder.  It's stood up well for over 130,000 rds so far and is just now getting broken in.

Competition is good, more choices is good!

If Mark 7 is already producing .38/357 tool heads, it seems to me that .45 Colt is next logical choice. I'm sure the Cowboy Action crowd contains a few customers.

That is pretty freaking crazy. Wouldn't get away with the trick shooting nowadays.

I tried but the Hornady powder measure doesnt fit with primer tube in way. Works fine on my 550 but no room on 1050. You find a way?

I just added them up and I have both guns and dies in 29 different calibers, unless I forgot a few.  However, the vast majority of those calibers are ones that see only occasional use.  There are only three or four rounds that make up 95% of my (handloaded) shots fired, since I mainly shoot surplus military ammo in my machine guns and don't as a rule reload for them.

Since you handload for 16 calibers, I'd be curious as to the breakdown of percentage of shots you fire per caliber.  Do the top three calibers account for less than 30% of the total, or is it more than 80%?

If it's the former, you are obviously well-served by your 650.  If it's the latter, you might be a potential future customer for a manual Evolution press with two extra shellplates.  That press has a similar amount of operator input as your Dillon.  After user reports start coming in over the next year or two, you might have different thoughts...

I hadn't actually ordered the parts yet when I saw the Evo in action.  I didn't realize this was a problem.  I thought other 1050 owners had done this mod successfully...

You could prime in separate step.

If I could get it working I would load my 30-06 varget rounds on 1050. Instead, I use 550.

So... I was talking to a local "commercial" reloader yesterday. He runs a small shop and sells quite a few reloads and also has a web presence. Good guy, great shop, and I trust him pretty well.

I was in to pick up some powder and primers, and told him about all the hype with the new Mark 7 presses and that I was being tempted by the devil!!! He had nothing but bad stuff to say about Mark 7, which really caught me off guard.

He runs a bunch of AmmoBot controlled 1050s, and says he tried the Mark 7 controllers in the past, and hated them. He says everyone he knows hates the Mark 7 controllers, and they all go for the much more reliable AmmoBot models. He said the owner of Mark 7 is a douche, and that he has heard of a ton of issues with the Revolution.

He also said they he has heard of patent lawsuits against Mark 7, and he mentioned the name of the company, but I will leave them un-named for obvious reasons (but it was NOT Dillon).

I had no response for him other than to say that what I have been reading online seems to contradict everything he was telling me, including the info already posted above about the law suits.

He definitely took the wind out of my sails, and I wish I would have had the inside knowledge to counter his claims, but of course, I was totally unprepared like I had brought a knife to a gunfight.

I am not trying to create any controversy here, but I am curious about how others would have responded.

The guys at Mark7 are fantastic at sales and marketing.  They keep any negativity off the internet with their "closed" Facebook group, to which you have to be an owner of a Mark7 to join, and if you have anything negative to say on that group, you'll be booted from it, thus cutting off any customer service or tips you may have garnered online.  I know two people who have been booted.

Ammobot owns the patent on the technology, so if there's a lawsuit regarding the patent, that's who would be initiating it.

If you desire a Mark7, PM me... I know a bunch of commercial loaders trying to dump them.

You guys keep saying Mark 7.  But that would be like just Dillon and not delineating between the different products. All they've had out was mainly their Dillon autodrive thing.  And if someone refers to the "Revolution" model, that would be half their autodrive and sensors and half their new press.

I am interested in the press, not the electronics so much.  If anyone can tell me about the press I'd love to hear it!  The character and demeanor of the owners and company to me are so subjective, and I know it seems like people put 99% of their focus on all of that.  I just care about the goods!  i.e. I own an HK ; )

However, if someone were to tell me that the electronics or software were still buggy, I wouldn't be shocked.  Unless you're a software or electrical engineer, I doubt you will have a good respect on how hard it is to make a robust system like these things.  So as a non-software engineer, (only knowing a little programming myself), I don't have as high of expectations as small reloading companies might.

As a non-commercial reloader I don't hang my hat on how nice their company is, as long as they don't flat out screw me over.   I've only called Hornady once, and Redding once.  They were both nice.  I had to wait on the phone forever.  I don't expect anything different from Mark 7.  And yes this is where commercial guys will say that's not good enough for them and make a good point.

I think the mechanical component is much simpler, so hopefully, like I said, it can at least to as well at a 1050!  I'm hoping someone with experience could comment! You're making me nervous, but if its the electronics that people don't like, well I am getting zero electronics from them so it doesn't help me much.

It is?  I've never shot Cowboy Action, but all the "cowboy load" data I see published is with smokeless, esp. Trail Boss...

Very interesting.  I can see how Mark 7 having a closed FB group would allow them to control negative comments in their FB group, but not all over the Internet.

I've looked for user reviews of Mark 7 products for months now, and I just now did Google searches for "Mark 7 Reloading complaints," "Mark 7 Reloading reviews," and "Mark 7 vs Ammobot."

I was surprised by the near-universal praise of Mark 7, and a complete lack of any serious Mark 7 bashing similar to the above posts.  Here are some results worth perusing:

http://forums.brianenos.com/topic/244876-mark-7-vs-ammobot/

http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/5342-newsreel-ammobot-v-mark-vii-lte/

The manual version costs about the same as a 1050. Right now Dillon kind of has The market cornered so I'll bet they'll do very very well as long as they work as promised

The automated version will be a huge hit with smaller ammo manufacturers and those that currently use 1050's for small runs

Actually, your post really didn't apply (or make sense)

Not sure why you think you get to decide what other people need lol

edit, disregard, moderator already addressed it

Not sure what’s up with the shop owner who ripped them, but my take is that Mark7 products have been steadily building a following based on their products and not just advertising and I have had no issues as a customer.  They have taken what’s already good and improved upon the designs and the Revolution and Evolution presses provide options for noncommercial loaders.
 
I also was not a big fan of the Mark 7 subscription needed for customer support (seems like most every other company just builds that in as part of their business), but I understand why they have tried the model. Haven’t had any problems with the machines, so for me it’s not really much of an issue.
 
I’ve done a fair bit of business with Mark7 across the years.  Never had an issue with the owner Jay who I have talked to on the phone. As far as I can tell he is a serious guy who cares a lot about the quality of the products and also the company’s rep. 
 
Didn’t see anything online about patent lawsuits related to Mark7 after googling, and I suspect any big lawsuits between competing reloading companies would easily show up and be a topic of conversation in this forum and others.  Guess we will have to stay tuned.

Revolution presses being assembled for customers.  Evolutions are next.

https://www.facebook.com/mark7Reloading/photos/pcb.2082648775350967/2082648082017703/?type=3&theater

Great thread.

Owning a few mark 7’s of different variety’s, I can offer my thoughts.

Facebook group is closed because a million people kept asking about revolutions or things unrelated to the press. It keeps the riff raft to a minimum.

I had an issue with a cable and got a Facebook message and a request for verification of address and number of machines. The next day I had three new cables even though only one was bad.

Paying for tech support is something me and buddies never needed and we have quite a few machines and load 150k per machine a year for competition.

While I shoot a ton, the sensors stopping the machine from destroying stuff while I did something else was what sold me.

Just talked to the factory.  Most of the crew left for the NRA Convention this morning.  Evolution presses are still waiting on a few parts and they say they will start shipping this month (May.)

JR

Eight Evolution presses shipped this week and ten more are going out Monday 6/18.

JR

The video was all talk and no press.  Did I miss it? 

Read the lead-in.  They haven't built mine yet.

Talked to Mark 7's owner Joel Hirshberg the other day.  They are working through the backlog of Evolution press orders that started at the SHOT show, and are shipping presses every day.  He looked up my spot in the queue and my .500 S&W unit is slated for completion around Labor Day, the same time as the primer collator for the Evolution is projected to be available.

JR

Gentlemen,

The UPS man is once again the harbinger of joy!

Evolution (manual) in 223

Attached File

Sweet!  Congrats!

Look forward to reading how it works for you and any other details.

How did your actual ship date vary from what you were told when you ordered, if at all?

Ah yes,

I pre-ordered this from Shooters Connection on April 10.  So I may have received it a little earlier since Mark 7 was shipping to the dealers who ordered at shotshow first.  I think they said that the two big dealer orders (DAA and Shooters connection) should be all caught up soon, and then to the individuals who ordered directly from Mark 7.

Shooters Connection has been fantastic by the way!  They answered a few questions I had after my order.  However, on mint.com the credit card charge for the $500 deposit showed up just as "Hooters" (took the S off of shooters, and neglected the connection).  I made a funny thread on it in GD back then, after my wife saw that.  

Haha! That is a pretty large Hooters bill!!! Big tipper??? Hmmmmmm... what kind of service did you receive for such a big tip? LOL!

Seriously, we are all interested to hear how this thing works. Keep us all posted!!!

(I am slightly jealous, just sayin'...)

How was assembly/set up?  What are your initial thoughts?

Sorry guys since I got it I was on nightfloat and really busy on other stuff.  Here are some pics!

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So a few things,  Mark 7 seems to have switched their members only access to setup information from facebook to their own website, and I didn't order from them, but from Shooters, so I did not initially have access to set up videos and info. However guys from Brian Enos posted the pdf of the manual which didn't come with my press .  Nonetheless, I got it all set up.  Important to read all the steps.  I didn't screw the feet into the bottom of the press and kindof wanted the whole thing flush with my table, but those feet would have made the handle clear the press which was set back just enough to clear my 2x6 at the front of my bench, and I ended up having to drill mill a small channel for the handle to clear.

The powder measure is a beast!   I ran a few through and checked with my FX 120i scale and it is +/- 0.04gr to 0.06gr with TAC so far.  Some people complained about a 3d printed spacer part on the powder measure and my press came with a machined part, so those guys listened!

Machining is amazing.  The main unit was packaged great, the smaller parts were packaged so-so, not Hornady type packaging at least yet.  I imagine they are rushing to get these to people.

So the case feeder is a modified hornady, but an important part of their design is a 3d printed part and not robust, but could easily be fixed.  I have had zero issues with case feeding, whereas with my old hornady LNL I'd have 5% failures.

I am still getting used to de-crimping with this press. I think I may still do two pass sizing and loading with 223.  I am using body dies as swage hold down.  And will do that for primer hold down.

I have a powder check die of theirs on the way, should be a few more weeks till it gets here according to them.

Overall I'm super happy to upgrade!

Thanks for all the great info in this update!  Jay tells me my .500 S&W Evo Pro should ship some time around Labor Day.

JR

Thanks JC!

Am interested in what amount of sized brass headspace variance you are getting with your 223 in one pass mode.

Am interested in what is leading you to stick with two pass (IE machine/reload quality/stoppage related, or other/personal pref/delube).

Thanks again.

I don't see my 1050 getting replaced any time soon but that is an awesome looking press. Very neat.

So,  a little bit more about my personal experience.  I am new to 1050 style presses.  If I had owned one before these came out, I would be less likely to have switched, although I believe this thing is nicer in many ways to the 1050.  Upgrading from a Hornady LNL AP is enormous!

So I had sized/trimmed 3k rounds or so on my Hornady previously.  And these 3k rounds were not swagged.  so I have only swagged a hundred rounds or so setting things up and trying different dies.  One thing, the mighty armory swage hold down diameter is a thou or so larger than my sized case necks, making the die not really work for already sized brass. Also, the swage rod protruded up a little before the hold down was in place, essentially resulting in the hold down die pressing the brass against the swage rod.  The body die I switched to keeps the brass held down sooner (die against sidewall brass), and after setting a good swage, it didn't even need to contact the shoulder and didnt affect headspace.

So in order to do this method of swaging, I need lubed brass.  So in attempting to do a run of loaded ammo without sizing but still swagging, I noticed that powder was stuck around the rim of the case every time.  Think salt on margarita glass.  It of course doesn't do this with de-lubed brass.  This is where I thought about sticking with 2 pass and not worrying about residual lube, having sized and swaged brass already, and no real stress or flex of toolhead.

That's about all I can type for now gents!