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Posted: 7/21/2007 3:16:46 PM EDT
M1 Garand, Can the old warhorse really hold it's own against the post war MBRs, FAL,M1A/G3? Would you trust it to defend your hearth and home against more modern arms in a shtf situation?
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Shot at longer distances, there is not a rifle listed that would leave the Garand in the dust. Save for the smaller ammo capacity [8 rounds VS 20] there is little that makes the others stand out a huge amount and reloading is fast and quick. Since AP is legal in 30/06, there is a plus right there to even it a bit also. The sights are better on the Garand then several you listed so while I would like more ammo capacity, there is little difference save for that which could be a deal breaker for many.
I would feel perfectly fine using it in a SHTF situation as the bigger part of the equasion is the person BEHIND the rifle. |
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The M14 was the next evolution of the M1 Garand as designed by John C Garand. I would say that the best of the M1 made it to the M14 with improved capacity, option of full auto, roller lug bolt, and improved gas system would make the M14 superior to the M1 Garand.
The other rifles are not as easily compared IMO. It is subject to the user's needs and preferences. |
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Except for not having a 20 round mag, the Garand is EVERY BIT THE EQUAL of the other rifles listed. I'm refering to general usability under battlefield conditions by typical infantrymen. This also applies to citizen shooters today. And I would have ZERO reservations about grabbing either of my M1's and heading for the tall grass.
ETA: Or the deer woods. Or the range. |
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I have to disagree on the bolt roller, gas system and full auto. The bolt rollers are known to be problematic. The White System(gas cylinder and piston) requires more maintenance than the M1's. And the M14's on full auto are commonly stated to be hard to control. On this last point, I admit to relying on the word of others. If the M1 has weaknesses, it is in the overly complicated feeding system with the follower rod, follower arm, bullet guide, accelerator and follower. It DOES work, though. The enbloc clip in itself, was actually a superb system FOR THE CIRCUMSTANCES of WW11. But, the 20 round mag on the M14 is admittedly unbeatable.
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I love my M1A .
I would not feel under gunned with an Garand . One would have to pick the fight . IE: do it at long range , hit and run .
After 2 mags you get the hang of it . Its not hard at all . Aimed fire does more damage than FA . Unless China is landing in LA harbor . |
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My wife (Korean) has an uncle who's family was run out of north Korea before the war. He fought against the communists and used an M1. He told me he killed dozens of communists with his M1 outwards of 800 meters.
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As long as the enbloc clips hold out I would have no problem defending my position with a Garand. One of the things I practice is rapid fire and rapid reloading. That's where stocking up on lots of Greek CMP ammo comes in handy.
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I feel the Garand is a VERY well proven design. My only concern with them the fact that I don't currently own one.
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You could argue the other options suffer from an over-powerful round designed to replicate 30-06 performance in a smaller cartridge. If the others had been chambered in .280 British then they might offer more of an advantage over the Garand than magazine capacity. The Italian BM59--a shortened 7.62x51 Garand with a 20-round box--proves the Garand's operating system can hold its own. It was in service with the Italians, Indonesians and Moroccans from around 1959 until the 1980s.
If MacArthur had permitted the adoption of .276 Pedersen, the first "assault rifle" might have been something like the BM59 chambered for that round. In answer to the question, IMO the Garand can hold it's own against other full-power battle rifles with 20-round box magazines. The Garand's long-stroke gas system is simpler and has greater operating clearances than the M14. Arguably, that should make it operate more reliably in adverse conditions, but also makes it more prone to break parts. |
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If it can't hold up, then General Patton was wrong.
Not a chance. |
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Garand wanted nothing to do with the M14. He felt that the White gas system was a step backwards as it was considered obsolete 20 years prior. And part of the idea was to use some of the same tooling but the M14 was just different enough that almost none of it could be used. |
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My "go to" rifle is a M1 Garand. When I get around to putting it together, the rifle that takes its place will be a "Tanker" M1 Garand.
I would have no problem grabbing any of my 6 Garands if the need arose. |
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I'm thinking of dropping my M1 G in a polymer stock to lighten it up a bit. that should be a great go to rifle..
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The only real difference is the capacity, and that's almost negated because of how fast the Garand is to load.
I'd say yes. |
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It depends on the users needs and whether they can even use the others to an advantage, but mags hold more ammo and are easier to reload when there empty.
Did they even bother to save stripper clips in WWII? It would suck to loose em for a regular guy in teotwawki these days. Don't forget better optics platforms for modern optics, modern synthetic stock choices and flash suppressors. The old warhorse will still put rounds down range, but it's got enough disadvantages. I'll take an M14 thanks. With a good Blackhawk vest setup of 6 mags and one in, plus a pistol and a couple of spares for it. |
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www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/001.html#4
About 2/3 of the way down the page: CLBV-M5 M1 GARAND - SKS RIFLE These CLBV-M5 variations are available for either the: * M1 Garand - 24 ea 8 round clips, in 4 pouches holding 6 clips, 192 rnds |
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Ammo capacity is its only limitation when compared to a So called
modern rifles... But it still comes back to what truely matters.. Who is behind the rifle. I have an M-1 and it is one of the few weapons I never have to worry about spring set because there is no mag. Only a loaded 8 round en-block clip that needs to be slammed home. |
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Got two in my main battery, one a WWII retread I recently bought through the CMP, the other I bought through Geneseo about 24 years ago. Only limit to their effectiveness is their small load size.
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The 8-rd clip is at once a plus and a minus.
On the plus side, it is lightweight, more compact than any magazine of identical capacity could ever be, and can be left loaded and ready to go indefinitely. On the minus side, it is easily damaged, even more easily lost, and tactical gear for carrying lots of them is not readily available. Bandoliers are fine, but are not exactly the quickest thing from which to retrieve a clip. You can easily retrieve your clips at the range, or even hunting. Doing so during a more serious type of encounter is almost out of the question. All this said, it is virtually a requirement for the Garand owner to have all their ammo clipped up and also to have loads of spare clips to replace those lost and/or damaged. Moving on from that issue, the most commonly heard complaints about the Garand were that it was a bit long, a bit heavy, and that the en-bloc clip system had issues. Scoping the Garand posed some serious challenges. Let's fast-forward from 1957. Our modernized Garand sports a 18" chrome-lined barrel, your choice of caliber. The stock is a modern composite unit, with plenty of room in the hollow buttstock for a cleaning kit and some essential spare parts. The front sight has a Tritium insert, and the rear aperture has been widened to a modern 'Ghost ring" peep, much faster than the former version, and better in low-light conditions. The primary sighting system is a Scout mount installed in place of the rear handguard and mounts a Burris pistol scope with reticular hold-overs out to 500yds (and beyond, if you wish). Mounted on Leupold QRW rings, it is easily and quickly removed/installed with no loss in zero. The shortened barrel can sport either an SEI Vortex flash suppressor or a muzzle brake from the same folks. Because of their attachment method, either will accept the M5A1 bayonet which can double as a decent field knife. Modern M-10 all-composite scabbard for same, as well as the excellent GI synthetic M-14 sling, which not only allows easy carrying, but doubles as a shooting aid for long ranges. The lost/damaged clip problem can be solved if the owner installs a "Holbrook Device". This unit requires manual ejection of the empty clip (no more "PING!") and admittedly slows down the reloading process a small amount, BUT the unejected, empty clip (still in rifle) can also be easily topped-off. Oh, BTW, no more M1 Thumb. Last, but not least, we'll treat the trigger group to a nice trigger job. Google "FMCO" for modern ALICE and/or MOLLE compatible clip carrying pouches and vests. Is all this modification fair? Figure that your FAL or M1A will cost $1200 or more VS. $600 for a decent M1 on which to install the mods. Optics and mount costs will be roughly equal for any of the rifles referenced, thus making even the modified M1 less expensive than either of the others. Such a lightweight, handy M1 with state of the art components and sighting systems would be very hard to beat, either feature wise, or by comparing the cost. In point of fact, just such an M1 beat out all comers in a speed-shoot comparison detailed in " Boston's Gun Bible". The original M1 is not obsolete as an MBR, although it has its drawbacks. Once those drawbacks are remedied, the M1 can be a very potent and thoroughly modern MBR. |
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I agree 100% |
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Someone who is really experienced and practiced can be very effective even with a less than ideal weapon, so yes, I'd say it can still hold it's own, providing the shooter really knows his stuff. I'd pit any American infantry squad from WW2 armed with M1's up against any third world militia armed with more modern weapons.
Heck, some of the British troops could put out a tremendous amount of fire with their Lee Enfields and I wouldn't want to go up against them either. Someone who really knows their weapon will always be formidable. |
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The one great advantage of the M1 over all modern weapons platforms (other than drop dead sexiness) is the lack of a protruding magazine.
With an M1 you can really get down into the dirt and take cover without the 10" long mag forcing your rifle up. If I was shooting from a hide or concealment, the M1 would rule. If I ever need to deploy an MBR in the field (which mean that TEOTWAWKI has arrived) I WILL be shooting from concealment. My $.10 Disconnector |
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The Garand is a fine rifle, it can still hold it own against most of the new stuff. Sure it ain't the best for room to room urban warfare but it is hard to beat out in the wide open spaces. It wouldn't be my first pick for combat but i would be happy with one if thats what I had.
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+1 I have yet to see a decent synthetic for the M1... |
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If things went poorly, it would be your fault, not the weapons. This is in contrast to early experiences with the M16 in Vietnam, Pre fixed SAR80's, etc. |
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I purchased a Red Cloud LLC synthetic stock a few months back (ad in shotgun news), I've run around 200 rds thru the rifle with the "new" stock on, it seems to be fine. It was a brown pastic that was rather slick, so I bought some black textured spray paint from home depot, yours supposed to put in on patio funtiture I think, well, it works great, its black so it def looks better than the light brown it came as, and it is now alot more "grippy". It is by no means the end all of synthetic stocks, but for $35 it seems good to go for now. |
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I was surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that Sage is now making an aluminum chassis stock for the Garand.
Sage Stock for Garand I always thought it would be awesome if the army started fielding Garands (dressed up in synthetic or aluminum stocks^) again. Not a snowball's chance in hell it's ever going to happen, but still, an awesome thought. |
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To each their own, but |
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That's what I thought, but I wasn't gonna say anything. |
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Uh, no. |
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My initial reaction to the SAGE stock on anything was the same as VinnieBoomBah's. Now I will just say "That's just not right."
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I am no huge fan of the Garand, but I am sure it can hold it's own in many ways against many modern rifles.
That Sage stock is great--fixes my biggest irritation with the Garand--the poorly designed rear upper hand gaurd. I think as far as accuracy is concerned, the Garand is a fine piece. For me, especially shooting lefty, there is no way a Garand is easier to load than other designs. You just can't beat a box magazine foe ease and convenience. To me, the Garand is a beutiful piece of nostalgic fire arms history. Fun to shoot, but antiquated and the first rifle I would leave behind when TSHTF. |
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Bell & Carlson made a synthetic stock for the Garand. It looks like Brownells may still have some (Part No. 137-100-001) but it says "Dropped by Factory".
LINK Damn! Now I need a Garand. I've been looking at/thinking about getting a full-power military style rifle since I got my AR, but none of them grab me except the Garand and the "Portuguese" Artillerie Inrichtingen AR10. Of those, the Garand is more affordable/obtainable. |
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I keep a Garand as my "go to gun"
It is my second favorite rifle (Second only to my M1917). I have a FAL, ARs, AKs, etc, but I still go back to the Garand. |
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the only thing it lacks is on hand capacity, but if you are a rifleman, trained to shoot effectively at individual targets, that's not much of an issue.
My M16A1 clone is my urban go-to rifle though. But my Garand is still in the top 3 |
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Dude, the Bolt Rifle, I assume from the long action it's 30-06 as well? Would make/model is it?
Larry, The M1A is a clone of trhe M14 correct? I think most would consider very much a main battle rifle. By the way nice looking collection you have there! Thanks for the great thread guys.
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I am just saying that the vast majority of Garands in the hands of us nuts are ACTUAL battle rifles whereas the M1A is just a clone. The original post listed real MBRs like the FAL but listed the M1A instead of the M14. The M14 is a battle rifle, an M1A is not. |
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actually the current m1a's from springfield are a miserable copy of a select fire MBR. they are not nor ever have been a fielded rifle by any modern military. the US military doesn't have any m1a's as far as i know. IIRC they are ALL m14's.
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Strictly speaking, perhaps that is so, although saying so presumes that the M1A has never been used in battle. That is something I'd not want to say. Now that I think on it, enough important parts have been swapped out of most imported MBRs (including, but not limited to the FAL) to make them more like the M1A as opposed to an M-14. For that matter, a number of improvements have been made to the M1A/M-14. Perhaps enough to render the modern version somewhat superior to the original GI version. I doubt the recipient of a 7.62mm round would be able to tell if it was fired from a real M-14, or from an M1A. If I'm wrong, perhaps aomeone who has undergone such an experience will speak up. |
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All that notwithstanding, the M1A is not a battle rifle. |
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Ok, so if it's an older M1A with GI parts and barrel how is that less of a battle rifle then say a semi auto cetme or fal with us made parts etc?
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Those are not battle rifles either. A USGI M14, a surplus, FAL, etc are battle rifles as are the GI Garands from CMP and other sources. An aftermarket Garand is not a battle rifle. |
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Actually there were contractors that brought Springfield M1A's over to Iraq and pics taken of them with the rifles, so that brings a bit in there for the "it's not a battle rifle" bullshit.
We call them battle rifles and use it as a common descriptive term because there versions of usgi and foreign military issue battle rifles and trying to make something out of it near every fuckin time someone uses the term is sickening to alot of members here so how about keeping that uptight shit to yourself. |
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