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Posted: 7/2/2012 11:39:04 PM EDT
A guy i work with has an M1 Carbine for sale. He is asking $400 for it, and im not sure if that is a good price or not. The rifle has about 90% of the finish, the barrel has a bright, shiney bore and chamber, the barrel has "Inland MFG division" then "General Motors" then "6-45" on it. The band on the front of the stock has a bayonet lug. The reciever has a two-digit serial number behind the rear adjustable sight (88) . The band on the reciever by the chamber says " U.S. carbine", then ".30 cal. M2". The only other markings that i can find is an " IO " where the sling attaches to the stock. I have had the rifle completely apart, and can find no other numbers or symbols. The stock has been refinished. I know this will hurt the value, even though it looks really nice. It also has a correct green canvas sling, and 2 GI 30 round mags. I would post pics, but i dont have a camera at the momment. Any help would be greatly appriciated.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:42:29 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
A guy i work with has an M1 Carbine for sale. He is asking $400 for it, and im not sure if that is a good price or not. The rifle has about 90% of the finish, the barrel has a bright, shiney bore and chamber, the barrel has "Inland MFG division" then "General Motors" then "6-45" on it. The band on the front of the stock has a bayonet lug. The reciever has a two-digit serial number behind the rear adjustable sight (88) . The band on the reciever by the chamber says " U.S. carbine", then ".30 cal. M2". The only other markings that i can find is an " IO " where the sling attaches to the stock. I have had the rifle completely apart, and can find no other numbers or symbols. The stock has been refinished. I know this will hurt the value, even though it looks really nice. It also has a correct green canvas sling, and 2 GI 30 round mags. I would post pics, but i dont have a camera at the momment. Any help would be greatly appriciated.


That is an issue.  I'd ask to see the form four, otherwise walk away fast...
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:14:37 AM EDT
[#2]
Not sure about the above post.
I have a complete Winchester and don't recall seeing M2 stamped on the receiver of any M1's, ever.
The price is great, and if there are no FA parts in it, I don't think it is illegal.
I don't know for sure. so it's on you.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-649661.html
Check the link above.
I edit my entire post.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:59:08 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Not sure about the above post.
I have a complete Winchester and don't recall seeing M2 stamped on the receiver of any M1's, ever.
The price is great, and if there are no FA parts in it, I don't think it is illegal.
I don't know for sure. so it's on you.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-649661.html
Check the link above.
I edit my entire post.


Yes, I clearly had no idea what I was talking about...

Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:10:21 AM EDT
[#4]
lithgow303, don't be an ass.
He asked a question. You made a reply.
I replied and edited it, and offered him some reading to help him better understand it.
I didn't challenge you and now you are being rude. You did nothing to help him but to state to see a form that he more than likely has no idea about.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:45:49 AM EDT
[#5]
From  my understanding, and I admit I could be wrong, but all Carbines that are marked M2 are considered by the ATF to be machine guns.  Even if they don't have the full auto parts installed.  Once a full auto, always a full auto. Even though the Carbine does not have any of its full auto parts on/in the receiver.  But for some strange reason, the ATF considers the M2 Carbine an exception, so they make the receiver illegal even though it never carried the full auto parts.
Who is the receiver manufacturor?  It should be stamped on the receiver under the rear sight.  A two digit serialed receiver would more than likely be an Inland, and it would not be an M2. M2s were not made till very late in  WW2.  Not withstanding all this, $400 is a very good price for an M1 Carbine.  
With a barrel date of 6-45, it could very well be an M2 with the original barrel, as production started in 4-45.  If it was a standard M1 Carbine that would give it a value of about $700+ dollars.   All the small parts will be marked with letters, which are manufacturors codes indicating who(which subcontractor) made the part for which primary contractor.  Such as AOB, meaning Auto Ordnance for IBM.  If it is all original, and the value increases when there are more original parts, the parts should be marked with Inland on them.
But, as was said before, it it is marked M2 then you should run, not walk, away from the deal.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 6:57:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
From  my understanding, and I admit I could be wrong, but all Carbines that are marked M2 are considered by the ATF to be machine guns.  Even if they don't have the full auto parts installed.  Once a full auto, always a full auto. Even though the Carbine does not have any of its full auto parts on/in the receiver.  But for some strange reason, the ATF considers the M2 Carbine an exception, so they make the receiver illegal even though it never carried the full auto parts.
Who is the receiver manufacturor?  It should be stamped on the receiver under the rear sight.  A two digit serialed receiver would more than likely be an Inland, and it would not be an M2. M2s were not made till very late in  WW2.  Not withstanding all this, $400 is a very good price for an M1 Carbine.  
With a barrel date of 6-45, it could very well be an M2 with the original barrel, as production started in 4-45.  If it was a standard M1 Carbine that would give it a value of about $700+ dollars.   All the small parts will be marked with letters, which are manufacturors codes indicating who(which subcontractor) made the part for which primary contractor.  Such as AOB, meaning Auto Ordnance for IBM.  If it is all original, and the value increases when there are more original parts, the parts should be marked with Inland on them.
But, as was said before, it it is marked M2 then you should run, not walk, away from the deal.


Again, ask to see the form four.   If its a properly registered gun and has the tax stamp it's legal to purchase.   If the guy looks at you funny or doesn't know what a form four or nfa tax stamp is then you need to walk quickly.  

Link Posted: 7/3/2012 7:30:02 AM EDT
[#7]



Quoted:


Again, ask to see the form four.   If its a properly registered gun and has the tax stamp it's legal to purchase.   If the guy looks at you funny or doesn't know what a form four or nfa tax stamp is then you need to walk quickly.  



This.



 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 7:50:36 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Again, ask to see the form four.   If its a properly registered gun and has the tax stamp it's legal to purchase.   If the guy looks at you funny or doesn't know what a form four or nfa tax stamp is then you need to walk quickly.  

This.
 


But at this point, won't you have to transfer it in your name and incur the $200 tax stamp? Or is the form 4 transferable with the weapon due to it's age?
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 8:43:01 AM EDT
[#9]
[/quote]Again, ask to see the form four.   If its a properly registered gun and has the tax stamp it's legal to purchase.   If the guy looks at you funny or doesn't know what a form four or nfa tax stamp is then you need to walk quickly.  

[/quote]

Agreed.  However, if it is in fact a fully registered "machine gun", then $400 is a killer deal.  Registered machine guns go for vastly more than $400.  We are talking usuallty in the thousands, since due to law, no more "machine guns" can be manufactured to be sold.  Exisiting ones can  be sold, but no new ones can be made.  So, that drives the prices up.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 9:33:46 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Again, ask to see the form four.   If its a properly registered gun and has the tax stamp it's legal to purchase.   If the guy looks at you funny or doesn't know what a form four or nfa tax stamp is then you need to walk quickly.  

[/quote]

Agreed.  However, if it is in fact a fully registered "machine gun", then $400 is a killer deal.  Registered machine guns go for vastly more than $400.  We are talking usuallty in the thousands, since due to law, no more "machine guns" can be manufactured to be sold.  Exisiting ones can  be sold, but no new ones can be made.  So, that drives the prices up.[/quote]

Oh, totally agree on the price being a crazy good deal, and as crazy as it seems i've seen some crazy things come out of the wood work at rediculously good prices.  I'd put a crisp $10 bill that this M2 is unregistered and they're assuming its kosher to sell because the fun switch has been removed.   However I've always found it better just to ask for the paperwork as the stories people will tell to sell a firearm would give ol' Mark Twain a run for his money.  Once you have the facts, you can assess the deal and move on out.  It makes life so much easier than speculating and relying on "I thinks" and such, as i've known many an overzealous prosecutor make hay with folks who "thought" they knew the law...

   

Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:07:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Short answer: ATF considers any carbine stamped "M2" to be a machine gun under that "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" rule.

Long answer: ATF has never, and I doubt will ever, prosecuted anyone for possessing an M2 Carbine as long as it has semi internals.

The story:

The M2 was a later development of the M1 in which the receivers of the two variants are dimensionally identical. Instead of modifying the receiver, the engineers developed a fire-control system which permitted selective fire with the original M1 receiver.

The receivers which were destined to be built into FA variants were stamped "M2" to alert the GIs who were issued them. But again, the receivers were identical; only the seven fire-control parts were different.

In the 1960's, the Department of Civilian Marksmanship (forerunner to the present CMP) sold a metric ton of M1 Carbines to civilians. It was pretty cool –– any U.S. citizen could send $15 plus like $2.75 shipping to DCM, and the mailman would bring you your very own M1 Carbine. Problem was (at least in ATF's eyes), many of those DCM Carbines were stamped "M2". The internals were all semi –– some switched in by U.S. military armorers, others apparently virgin surplus M2 receivers built up as M1s –– but they were still stamped "M2" and thus in ATF's eyes, were machine guns.

It was a hoot to watch at the time.

ATF (which was then a division of the IRS) did try to get some back, but they were largely ignored ... and I have never, ever heard of them attempting to prosecute anyone who legally bought one of these from the United States government.

The problem, if it ever came to court, is that the M2's FA fire-control system was a drop-in conversion much like an RDIAS. And saying that a receiver dimensionally identical to an M1 suddenly was a machine gun because at one time or another, it may have had FA fire-control parts installed, is the same as saying that any AR15 which may at one time have had an RDIAS installed is thus a machine gun, under the "once an MG, always an MG" credo.

ATF would prolly get laughed out of court. And thus, they have let sleeping dogs lie, and the M2 Carbine is a moot issue, at long as it has semi fire-control parts installed.

This is not legal advice. Just an observation.


Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:48:10 PM EDT
[#12]
I found this on another forum....
"Yes this is correct. I was a class 3 dealer for many years and I still own an M2 marked carbine. The receivers on M1 and M2 are identical except for the number stamped on the bridge of the receiver. The trigger housing and several internal parts are different, and there is a selector switch, selector spring, and disconnector lever added to make the carbine fire in full automatic mode.

Removal of the M2 parts does indeed convert an M2 back to legal semiautomatic status ONLY IF the receiver is marked M1. If the receiver is marked M2, it was originally manufactured as a machine gun and it will always be considered a machine gun by BATF. It's common to find carbines with M2 type trigger housings, sears and hammers, even disconnectors included in the trigger housing, but the selector switch, selector spring, and disconnector lever are ALWAYS missing from any M1 carbine I have ever seen.

So, if the carbine you are considering purchasing is marked M2 on the receiver, forget about it. It's not worth 10 years in Club Fed. No way to ever make it legal either
."
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:09:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
From  my understanding, and I admit I could be wrong, but all Carbines that are marked M2 are considered by the ATF to be machine guns.  Even if they don't have the full auto parts installed.  Once a full auto, always a full auto. Even though the Carbine does not have any of its full auto parts on/in the receiver.  But for some strange reason, the ATF considers the M2 Carbine an exception, so they make the receiver illegal even though it never carried the full auto parts.
Who is the receiver manufacturor?  It should be stamped on the receiver under the rear sight.  A two digit serialed receiver would more than likely be an Inland, and it would not be an M2. M2s were not made till very late in  WW2.  Not withstanding all this, $400 is a very good price for an M1 Carbine.  
With a barrel date of 6-45, it could very well be an M2 with the original barrel, as production started in 4-45.  If it was a standard M1 Carbine that would give it a value of about $700+ dollars.   All the small parts will be marked with letters, which are manufacturors codes indicating who(which subcontractor) made the part for which primary contractor.  Such as AOB, meaning Auto Ordnance for IBM.  If it is all original, and the value increases when there are more original parts, the parts should be marked with Inland on them.
But, as was said before, it it is marked M2 then you should run, not walk, away from the deal.


Again, ask to see the form four.   If its a properly registered gun and has the tax stamp it's legal to purchase.   If the guy looks at you funny or doesn't know what a form four or nfa tax stamp is then you need to walk quickly.  



I went to the guy today and asked to see the rifle again. The reciever is an Inland, and is very clearly marked "M2". I didnt see any selector switch, or any full-auto parts. I asked him about a form four, and he just give me a puzzled look, and said that he bought it years ago at an estate sale, and didnt have any paperwork. As bad as i hated to, i walked away from the deal. But, i do want to thank all of you for your helpful advice. I could have unknowingly bought myself a prison sentence!!
Link Posted: 7/4/2012 1:41:31 AM EDT
[#14]
shit...
Link Posted: 7/4/2012 4:46:25 PM EDT
[#15]
A M2 Carbine is a machine gun. Walk away unless it was registered many years ago.
Link Posted: 7/4/2012 5:35:54 PM EDT
[#16]

You need to explain to your co-worker about the problem with it being an M2. He is in possession of an unregistered machine gun.
Link Posted: 7/4/2012 7:20:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
A M2 Carbine is a machine gun. Walk away unless it was registered many years ago.


As hard as it was, i did walk away.
Link Posted: 7/4/2012 7:22:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:

You need to explain to your co-worker about the problem with it being an M2. He is in possession of an unregistered machine gun.


I did explain the situation to him, but i dont think he really believed me. But, at least its a headache that i dont have to deal with now.
Link Posted: 7/4/2012 11:28:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Pic of M2 s990.photobucket.com/albums/af28/tstorm31/ He let me take a pic of the markings to put on here.
Link Posted: 7/5/2012 1:27:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Lots of people don't know the laws and look at you like you are from another planet when you explain things to them.

The U.S. is filled with illegal guns-lots of bring backs and people just not knowing the law.

I had a discussion with a retired cop last year that bought a pistol and was buying a folding stock for it.I gave up after a few minutes because he didn't believe me that it wasn't legal to put a stock on a pistol.I have seen plenty of other examples over the years as well.

Too bad about the carbine,but it's defintely not worth the hassle.
Link Posted: 7/5/2012 10:41:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Lots of people don't know the laws and look at you like you are from another planet when you explain things to them.

The U.S. is filled with illegal guns-lots of bring backs and people just not knowing the law.

I had a discussion with a retired cop last year that bought a pistol and was buying a folding stock for it.I gave up after a few minutes because he didn't believe me that it wasn't legal to put a stock on a pistol.I have seen plenty of other examples over the years as well.

Too bad about the carbine,but it's defintely not worth the hassle.


Yeah, I have to agree with this. The guy that owns this rifle looks at me like im nuts when i try to explain it to him. Im sure he will find some unknowing person to sell it to. If it weren't for this forum, that would have been me! Its pretty sad when law enforcement officers dont even know the laws!! WoW!!!  
Link Posted: 7/5/2012 10:48:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Arfcom...good council
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