I was in downtown Annapolis the other day and they Goodie's had all the graduation photos by company from the USNA parade...  and all the Midshipmen were carrying M14's!  Some had the older type handguards with the cutouts.  I couldn't see any selector switches.  So at least the Naval Academy has saved a good bunch of M14s from the scrape heap. Anybody know about the USNA M14 rifles?  Are they demilled for parade duty only?  

I've also heard the the Maryland State Police have a handfull of M14's for funeral services, etc.  

AFAIK, the Navy still issues the M14. They never switched.

Well they dont issue them, but they do use them as line launchers and shore patrol uses them sometimes.

In Navy basic training ( I got some very recent info on this, a friend of mine joined the Navy last year) they only teach them how to use M9s (Berettas) and 12 gauge shotguns.

The parade/drill ones are not demilled they are real M14 rifles less the selector switch (this info from the Army Ops forums from a naval academy student).

Another interesting fact, in Afghanistan the 10th Mountain was issuing M14s as squad marksman rifles.

I believe you will see the M14 come back with a vengance, as lots of special operators are trying to get their hands on something with more punch than the 5.56.

So much for those of us hoping to get semi-auto M-14's through the CMP...

From what I understand, the M14 is considered a machine gun and even if it is made to fire semi only, once a machine gun, always a machine gun...  So I don't believe M14s will ever be made available for civilians sales through CMP.  

Quoted: From what I understand, the M14 is considered a machine gun and even if it is made to fire semi only, once a machine gun, always a machine gun...  So I don't believe M14s will ever be made available for civilians sales through CMP.

That is true. But there has been a movement to petition Congress into convincing the BATFE into recinding this rule.

The next big hurdle is the CMP sells surplus rifles and the M14 has never been surplused. It's listed as "secondary, reserve" backup. (Or whatever the mil.gov calls it.)

Quoted: Well they don't issue them, but they do use them as line launchers and shore patrol uses them sometimes. In Navy basic training ( I got some very recent info on this, a friend of mine joined the Navy last year) they only teach them how to use M9s (Berettas) and 12 gauge shotguns. The parade/drill ones are not demilled they are real M14 rifles less the selector switch (this info from the Army Ops forums from a naval academy student). Another interesting fact, in Afghanistan the 10th Mountain was issuing M14s as squad marksman rifles.

actually some of the M9s have 22 subcal kits on them and there is only 10 rounds from the shotgun.. it's more famfire than any actual training ...this was from one guy who just went through Naval reserves and a navy recruiter....but as I understand it certain rates  are only issued weapons in the Navy soo....

Does anyone know what the Air Force does in basic?

coolhandluke,

Glad to see aother MD'er on the boards. You should checkout the MD hometown board and go shooting with us or come to one of te meets!

The airforce... lol.

This info from usmilitary.about.com/library/weekly/aa041500e.htm. They teach them how to use M16 for one week.

About the Navy though. Id still take my chances in being blown into a million little pieces ON LAND than slowly drowning and or burning alive.

I was at the Air Force Academy last fall and I think they were marching with M14's as well. We had M1's back when I was there a long time ago. If they are marching with them they are demilled for sure. Our M1's were. Way back when, the story is, they weren't demilled and a cadet or two killed themselves with them. They fixed that problem by demilling them all.

Figures.

The voices of authority have spoken. LOL

Quoted: Well they dont issue them, but they do use them as line launchers and shore patrol uses them sometimes.

Really? I didn't know that.

In Navy basic training ( I got some very recent info on this, a friend of mine joined the Navy last year) they only teach them how to use M9s (Berettas) and 12 gauge shotguns.

What kind of shotguns those Navy guys use?

The parade/drill ones are not demilled they are real M14 rifles less the selector switch (this info from the Army Ops forums from a naval academy student)

Man, good info... Guess I've been in the damn twilite zone

Virginia Military Institute is sitting on 1800-2000 fully functional m14 rifles (most have firing pin and selector removed and stored away)

Quoted: Does anyone know what the Air Force does in basic?

When I went through AF basic in '94 we shot a whole wopping 80 rounds thru the M-16A1.  Two years later I shot it again (another 80 rounds). Two years after that I qual'd on the M-9, 60 rounds - and have requal'd twice since then.  I passed 9 years yesterday and have only fired 340 rounds TOTAL.

cheers,

wyrm

The navy mostly uses Mossberg 590 variants with ghost ring sights. At least this is what the Navy kids at Blackwater were being trained on. (And they still messed it up...)

Blackwater contracted to do all the small arms/ship defense training for the Norfolk Naval base recruits. They get trained on the shotgun and the pistol. They don't do much shooting during this training though.

The instructors (many of whom are former/current spec/ops guys) are not allowed to say "Head Shot". They must say "High Center Mass".

They are not allowed to say "legs" and "apart" when describing a shooting stance, lest this offend female sailors. They can't say "kill" ever, they must say "stop the threat".

You can imagine how much they LOVE this speech code. I agree with them. If the little darlings don't realize that they need to kill people who attempt to take over one of our nuclear subs or aircraft carriers, then they don't belong in the military at all.

They actually have decent ship defense training using simunitions, IF the students would actually bother to learn something. BW has built a facade that looks like a ship's bulkhead to work with this. The SOP is that a bad guy (an instructor) suits up and tries to hold the bulkhead. The students need to neutralize him.

The bad guy starts out at the top of the bulkhead, about 25 feet up. The student starts out about 15 yards away in the open ground. They have to cover the open ground, get into the bulkhead and deal with the threat.

The bad guy lays prone on the bulkhead to start, and when he looses sight of the student he works his way down the bulkhead. Wanna guess how many sailors I saw get wasted standing out in the open blasting away at the bad guy and missing horribly? I lost count.

They actually had to stop the exercise and tell the sailors to GET OUT OF THE OPEN! One dude went prone out there in the open, realized he could no longer even get his gun on target, and then rolled on his back.

He got off an entire mag because the bad guy instructor was laughing so hard that he couldn't shoot straight.  

My Tactical Pistol II class stopped shooting and we watched all this going on for about 20 minutes. It was the funniest thing I have ever seen.

These poor kids would just get pelted and if they didn't go down and stop shooting right away, the bad guy instructor would put a round in their face mask to make the point.

I don't think a single student actually shot the bad guy once. A couple were smart enough to get up next to the bulkhead where they couldn't be sniped by a guy behind cover, but those few ended up dying inside because they didn't remember the CQB movements.

Quoted: The navy mostly uses Mossberg 590 variants with ghost ring sights.

The Mossberg 500 is the shotgun the fleet uses. Unless I'm in a different Navy.

At least this is what the Navy kids at Blackwater were being trained on. (And they still messed it up...)

That would be a failure on the trainers, that is all the trainers these sailors have had up to the point you came to that conclusion. Wouldn't you think?

Blackwater contracted to do all the small arms/ship defense training for the Norfolk Naval base recruits. They get trained on the shotgun and the pistol. They don't do much shooting during this training though.

You are offering these statements as your assumptions correct? Hopefully not fact. Why? First off there are no recruits in Norfolk. There are seamen who still are E-1's by way of pay grade but they are no longer recruits. Second of all Blackwater is not providing all training as you have stated. That is nonsense.  

My Tactical Pistol II class stopped shooting and we watched all this going on for about 20 minutes. It was the funniest thing I have ever seen.

Your Tactical Pistol II class....do you not realize in that class you observed were many beginner level students. In bootcamp the weapons training is basically a familiarization course if that. Many of the students have probably not fired more than two mags of pistol ammo their whole lives.

At that level could you do any better? That's the purpose of the class to learn. Not, everyone is a shooter, or do they care to be. Sailors aren't riflemen. Some may be. Sailors are
Firemen,
welders,
machinests,
medics,
electronics techs,
office bitches,
payroll guys,
computer guys,
cooks,
painters,
weapons specialists,
navigational types,
engineering types,
you get my point.


Some are lucky enough to get good weapons training.

Quoted: Virginia Military Institute is sitting on 1800-2000 fully functional m14 rifles (most have firing pin and selector removed and stored away)

A make-shift firing pin can easily be made from a coat hanger, though that would get one in very hot water. I don't think they are full-auto capable, but should work fine in semi except that many cadets cut the recoil springs so that working the action is easier during drill.

I keep bugging my friends that go there to smuggle me some mags, but they are (understandably) not willing to do so.

we never got access to mags except in ARMY ROTC Lab (and only OPFOR got them. 1 mag of 20 round blanks)
Why bother making a make shift firing pin when a real one can be bought for cheap?
If i was going to "snap" i would have just gotten my personal AR from the private arms locker in the Armory.
We only had access to an m14 and a bayonet that had seen better days.  Many of them had tips that were broken off.
Pretty damn impossible to get away with one.  Everyone signs for one and they make you check them out several days before a furlough.  If one isnt in on time the place gets locked down and no one can leave until it pops up.

Fire --

I don't know what the grade of the kids going to BW is. I assumed they were new to the Navy.

I AM sure about the status of their weapons training, if the BW instructors are to be believed. They train on the pump action Mossberg shotguns and on the M9 Beretta pistols. Blackwater was contracted to do the training for whatever reason.

But according to the instructors down there, this training is about it for small arms and ship defense for the overwhelming majority of them. Firing the occasional M9 off the bow of the ship is maybe the only other training they will get, and that is rare.

I hardly consider it a failure on the part of the trainers when a person puts a shell in the magazine of a Mossberg BACKWARDS after watching 2 other students do the same thing and having the instructor go over this point repeatedly.

The armorer had to fix 1 of the shotguns because the kid (big kid, about 6'4") crammed the round in the wrong way and it got stuck. The other two couldn't get the shell in far enough to get it stuck.

Since they were firing one at a time, this was a tad rediculous, don't you think? These kids WERE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY WERE BEING TRAINED ON. That was why their performance was not up to par, not a lack of acumen.

Their officers were milling around the canteen at BW and watching some of the other classes go on. Most of the NCO's were doing the same thing. A few NCO's and one 1st Lt. went through the shooting part of the training too.

Yes sailors are all the things you listed.

But so are Marines, and they can shoot and fight. Why? Cause you never know what can happen in combat. All those skills you listed are important, but so is knowing how to use small arms properly. It is a critical skill especially in our modern times when you never know when you can be cut off from support or assigned to do guard duty in rough areas.

Not to mention terrorist threats. Tomahawk missles are not much good against a few terrorists who try and get on to the ship while it is in port and most of the crew is on leave. And they CAN do this, as base security can be defeated easily by someone who really wants to do it. These kids need to be able to use small arms well in adition to being all the other necessary things you mentioned. Combat is not just a push button enterprise, even in the Navy. You may be forced to use small arms to fight in ship or to survive other unforseen dangers.

Yes the kids were noobs. But they had an instructor talking them through everything. Still several just didn't listen. One girl dropped a shotgun because it was "heavy" and she just didn't "feel like shooting it any more." I don't know whether or not she was dressed down for this by an officer or NCO later, but it sure steamed the instructor. (A Navy S.E.A.L)

How would I have done at their level of skill? Much better, because when the instructors taught me, I LISTENED. Big difference.

Not everyone's primary job is to shoot small arms, and they may not care to learn. But reality says that one day their lives and the lives of their shipmates may be at stake, so they had darn well better pay attention and prepare for that day.

All military training is preparation for something nobody wants to happen. Nobody really wants war, but you had better train for it and train hard, because wars happen. Small arms training and skill is VITAL to this line of thought.

Regardless of their specialty, they should all have good small arms skills. The Marines manage to do this quite well. The Army is not as good at it, but they get the job done.

I know for a fact that the Military Academy at West Point still uses M14s as parade rifles.  All are equipped with selector locks and wood stocks, and none have firing pins, firing pin springs, or the pins that hold them in.  Chrome plated bayonets were also issued for the parade field.  While there I carried a Winchester, and would love to have graduated with it.  For field training, the M14s were turned in for M16s.  There are at least 4000 M14s sitting in the barracks or in the arms room.  

Quoted: I AM sure about the status of their weapons training, if the BW instructors are to be believed. They train on the pump action Mossberg shotguns and on the M9 Beretta pistols. Blackwater was contracted to do the training for whatever reason.

I thought we covered this already. Blackwater is being contracted to provide a course - ARMED SENTRY COURSE A-830-0030

But according to the instructors down there, this training is about it for small arms and ship defense for the overwhelming majority of them. Firing the occasional M9 off the bow of the ship is maybe the only other training they will get, and that is rare.

No one fires off the bow of a ship for training. You should stop this already seriously.

Quoted: But according to the instructors down there, this training is about it for small arms and ship defense for the overwhelming majority of them. Firing the occasional M9 off the bow of the ship is maybe the only other training they will get, and that is rare.

Ok we will omit the bow part I will cut you slack on that one and address the above statement.

After Sept.11 the Navy was forced to scale up it's security as well as all US GOV agencies. Prior to 9/11 it was only necessary to have a small percentage of sailors well trained for Force Protection. When the Navy stepped up it's security naturally more man power was needed. The personnel qualified in Force Protection matters were standing ungodly amounts of watches. Personnel who had not normally stood armed watches were now being forced to stand armed watches. The amount of sailors requiring weapons profficiency is nearly 100% now. Courses like the one BW is providing is assisting in major way. The clowns you observed may not be bright people in the first place.

Their officers were milling around the canteen at BW and watching some of the other classes go on. Most of the NCO's were doing the same thing. A few NCO's and one 1st Lt. went through the shooting part of the training too.

I'm calling BS on this statement. No one is going to choose wether or not they are going to participate in a 2 week course while they are already there. This is another one of your assumptions. I'm actually getting a good laugh out of it though. Let's continue.

Yes sailors are all the things you listed. But so are Marines, and they can shoot and fight. Why? Cause you never know what can happen in combat.

Marines are combat trained amphibious soldiers. Marines are riflemen first. That is what Marine recruits become riflemen. Sailors do not leave bootcamp riflemen.

Not to mention terrorist threats. Tomahawk missles are not much good against a few terrorists who try and get on to the ship while it is in port and most of the crew is on leave. And they CAN do this, as base security can be defeated easily by someone who really wants to do it. These kids need to be able to use small arms well in adition to being all the other necessary things you mentioned. Combat is not just a push button enterprise, even in the Navy. You may be forced to use small arms to fight in ship or to survive other unforseen dangers.

You are addressing the man who gives security training at his unit. But thanks for the heads up, bro.




Central Command Area of Responsibility (Jan. 13, 2003) -- Chief Fire Controlman Tim Gallihugh, the Assistant Boarding Officer for a U.S. Navy Visit, Board, Search, and Seizure (VBSS) team, informs the Boarding Officer that the cargo vessel has not disposed of all its illegal cargo and recommends the vessel be held on station. Chief Gallihugh is stationed aboard USS Valley Forge (CG 50) which is forward deployed and is conducting Maritime Interdiction Operations (MIO) in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer’s Mate 1st Class Shawn Eklund. (RELEASED)

Furthermore the purpose of that paticular course is to train watchstanders in basics. Some do not pass. Most will become Marksmen and Sharpshooters with the M14, M16 and M9. Some will score Expert.

There are many organizations in the Navy that teach weapons and tactics courses. Students are expected to be already weapons qualified. Students who do not bring proof of qualifications will not be allowed to participate in the class. Those whose quals are "gundecked" will be found out or suffer in the course trying to keep up with everyone else and eventually dropped. I've seen it happen.

For example Fleet Training Centers (Local Training Authority) offer course such as:
Visitation Board Search and Seizure Courses VBSS, engagement weapon courses, small arms instuctor courses.

The Naval Criminal Investigative Service offers the same course taught by BW. The couses I have attended Navy courses - I learned and had fun. 3 days of simunitions is a blast. Night firing from 0100 to 0400 -oh yes. Under police lights and sirens - yes. Good stuff.

The course contracted to BW - good for some. Boring for others [me].

030112-N-3642E-002 Central Command Area of Responsibility (Jan. 12, 2003) -- Fire Controlman 2nd Class Von Carmack assigned to USS Valley Forge (CG 50) watches over the cargo search team inside a cargo hold while conducting a Visit, Board, Search, and Seizure (VBSS) inspection on a cargo ship. Valley Forge is forward deployed and is conducting Maritime Interdiction Operations (MIO) in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer’s Mate 1st Class Shawn Eklund. (RELEASED)


020115-N-6520M-006 At sea aboard USS Lake Champlain (CG 57) Jan. 15, 2002 -- The leader of the Vessel Boarding Search and Seizure (VBSS) team from aboard USS Lake Champlain gives the operation briefing before conducting a search of a merchant vessel. Maritime Interception Operations (MIO) are being conducted by the U.S. Navy in cooperation with coalition ships in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. U.S. Navy Photo by Photographer's Mate 1st Class Greg Messier. (RELEASED)

Bow of the ship:

I have talked to lots of Marines (who saw active combat in Beirut, limited action in Somlia in the pre-Black Hawk Down days, and in the Gulf.) and they did lots of training on the decks of their ships. Trained with non-lethals and small arms during Somalia.

This, from what I understood from them, was a fairly common occourance. (Setting up a target on the back of the ship and firing so the rounds land in the ocean...)

You can call BS on the officer/NCO statement if you want, but I was there. I saw the NCO's hanging out in the Chow Hall and saw officers coming and going. Very few were actually doing much shooting. Mostly the un-ranked noob's were doing the training.

I figured that the job the NCOs were there for was mainly baby sitting, as they had probably already gone through the weapons training. Still, their lack of presence caused not a little frustration on the instructor's parts.

If the Navy is starting to require better small arms training, then great. That makes me a happy man. But I also know that qualifications can be easily fudged.

A buddy of mine who used to run my favorite gunstore was in the Army reserve for years. He is currently over in Iraq doing chem/bio work as a Captain. When he was in his regular Army unit, he bought his platoon several thousand rounds of ammo to qual with because their brigade could not afford the ammo or couldn't get it for some reason.

His was the only platoon with ammo to qual with. Yet everyone in the other units qualed. He was dressed down for buying the ammo himself.

I went to church for a while with a former E-6 in the Army who said that one time during the qual course at her base her weapon malfunctioned. Yet somehow she qualed Expert without firing more than 5 rounds. When she pointed this out, she was directed to pick up the brass and keep her mouth shut.

I sincerely hope that in a post 9/11 world that things are taken more seriously. But incident #1 happened in the very recent post GWI world, and incident #2 happened during the Cold War. Pretty serious times, I think.

Stuff like this is as common a knowledge as how the ships used to dump tons of good equipment overboard so they didn't get their funding cut for the next budget cycle. I would guess that this still goes on. (I used to live in Norfolk and our church was filled with sailors and sailor families. They didn't do much weapons training either...)

I know that there are a lot of weapons courses offered in the Navy, but a great deal of them are optional, are they not? New emphasis on small arms training would hopefully encourage more skill to be built.

I am all for it, and I am not flaming the Navy here. They do a good job at their main mission, which is blowing stuff up at long ranges and fielding planes. But terrorists won't usually pick a fight with an F-18 if they can help it. Terrorist fights will usually be up close and nasty.

What I saw at Blackwater (where they handled 2x3 boards for hours before getting to handle the mossbergs...Not a bad idea actually) did not encourage me. I don't blame people for being new. About half of the kids being trained were simply not taking the training seriously. That was what worried me.

During my second trip to BW this year (in April for the carbine course) the Navy kids were training on metal detectors and screening people for weapons/explosives. (They were searching people as they went through an entrance, and scanning the bottoms of vehicles with mirrors so I assume this is the type of training they were doing) I didn't get to see much of this training as I had my hand full with the very demanding carbine training.

I saw no indication of this training during my previous visit. Am I right on the type of training this was?  

It appeared to me that most of the kids coming through BW when I was there were stationed on the Reagan. (Least that's what their hats said)

I don't remember what the ship was on the first trip I made...

Quoted: Bow of the ship: This, from what I understood from them, was a fairly common occourance. (Setting up a target on the back of the ship and firing so the rounds land in the ocean...)

Yes we do it all the time. Just not from the bow. Flightdeck/ fantail. Main decks and levels. In calm seas we have even set up 25 yrd ranges.

Bow, Stern, quarterdecks...its all greek to me. I don't know why when someone gets on a boat they have to start calling everything weird names...

I honestly couldn't tell a yardarm from a poopdeck on a ship. This is why no sane airboss will ever let me on his deck. I would end up getting my mangled corpse caught in the launch mechanism of the ship and stopping launches.

My Son is on the Guided Missle Cruiser Anzio. There front line guard weapon IS the M14. Secondly they also use the Mossberg and M9 then there is the M60s and 50 cals for deck hardware and everything else is classified info.

Quoted: I was at the Air Force Academy last fall and I think they were marching with M14's as well. We had M1's back when I was there a long time ago. If they are marching with them they are demilled for sure. Our M1's were. Way back when, the story is, they weren't demilled and a cadet or two killed themselves with them. They fixed that problem by demilling them all.

When I went to the Academy for basic in 1991 we had M1's with lead (i think) filled barrels.  All the heavier to march with!

I am a midshipman at the academy, so lets just put some things to rest.  First off we do have have m14's which is a change from a couple of years ago when the brigade was issued Garands.  Second, yes the barells are filled with lead as is just about all parade guns.  There are no selector switch's, but some do still have the firing pin.  It would be virtually immpossible to smuggle one of these rifles out though.  Every mid is held tightly responsible for his "weapon."  As for all the discussion on squids being able to shoot, I think that when you get a good look at what goes on in the different services you will see that we all have kids that enlisted to go to college and could give two sh--s about learning anything.  I personally know of marines that I would not trust in firing a weapon at a target two feet away.  I am sure that if you were to witness the training that the guys who shoot for a (AKA SEALs, BOARDING PARTIES, EOD) you would believe that we have some of the best shooters on earth.  I have witnessed things by done by seals that make me wonder how anyone could have the balls to stand up against the most powerful military on earth.  The truth is, those people are cowards.  

I never questioned the ability of the S.E.A.L's to shoot. Most of them can, especially on team Six.

My beef was:

1. The kids at Blackwater were for the most part not paying proper attention to their training. (Some did pay attention, loved the training and were eager to do more small arms work...)

2. The officers and NCO's were not there to ensure that they did. (Presence of command usually makes people pay more attention)

The groups I saw did not take their small arms training seriously, which troubled me greatly because small arms skill has become more valuable than ever in modern warfare. Fighting with smaller enemys mixed in with innocents living in large population centers calls for excellent small arms skill as does ship defense in these places.

I never said sailors can't shoot. A good deal of them can't, but there are some who are hardcore pros at it. (I was taught by S.E.A.Ls at Blackwater, remember. So I know that these guys know their stuff...)

As to lead filled M-14's....EW. Destroying the barrels on those wonderful weapons should be a crime punishable by a severe beating unless those weapons were not useful for anything else. I sincerely hope this is the case.

I hate destroying any firearm unless it is absolutely necessary. The firearm enthusiast in me is heartbroken to see guns get scrapped.