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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 10/18/2002 8:17:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2002 8:52:23 PM EDT by asm1]
i know a x gun dealer that is in his late 70's and he has offerd me a trw m14 demilled to semi auto he said it is legal and he purchased 36 back in the early 80's from a company in florida that refurbished the guns and installed new nm barrels the gun is all trw and is a u.s. rifle i have been surching the web and have found diffrent stories from web padges one such says (the m14 was designed as a selective fire weapon.under federal law,any receiver so designed remains a "machine gun"forever.and another web padge says that there where some very rare amended m14 weapons for public sale so i do not know what to do he has as well a h@r and winchester with the sme deal and if this is a lagitamate deal then what is the trw worth?any help please.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 8:41:42 PM EDT
wow!
Here is the spell checked version.

I know a x gun dealer that is in his late 70's and he has offered me a trw m14 demilled to semi auto he said it is legal and he purchased 36 back in the early 80's from a company in Florida that refurbished the guns and installed new nm barrels the gun is all trw and is a u.s. rifle i have been searching the web and have found different stories from web pages one such says (the m14 was designed as a selective fire weapon.under federal law,any receiver so designed remains a "machine gun"forever.and another web page says that there where some very rare amended m14 weapons for public sale so I do not know what to do he has as well a h@r and Winchester with the same deal and if this is a legitimate deal then what is the trw worth?any help please.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 8:45:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By asm1:
i know a x gun dealer that is in his late 70's and he has offerd me a trw m14 demilled to semi auto he said it is legal and he purchased 36 back in the early 80's from a company in florida that refurbished the guns and installed new nm barrels the gun is all trw and is a u.s. rifle i have been surching the web and have found diffrent stories from web padges one such says (the m14 was designed as a selective fire weapon.under federal law,any receiver so designed remains a "machine gun"forever.and another web padge says that there where some very rare amended m14 weapons for public sale so i do not know what to do he has as well a h@r and winchester with the sme deal and if this is a lagitamate deal then what is the trw worth?any help please.




M14's were select fire.ATF has said that ONCE A MACHINE GUN ALWAYS A MACHINE GUN! One option is to have an attorney check to see if its REGISTERED AND TRANSFERABLE. If it really is a MG AND TRANSFERABLE you MIGHT BE OK. OTOH,if it IS a MG and "NEVER REGISTERED" then I suggest you do not walk BUT RUN AWAY.
DO NOT GUESS AND ASSUME WITH ATF! Before you worry about the value,WORRY ABOUT LEGALITY FIRST!


I'm sure there are other members that can add to this. BTW, I AM NOT A LAWYER so don't take this as gospel.
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 8:57:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 73easting:
wow!
Here is the spell checked version.

I know a x gun dealer that is in his late 70's and he has offered me a trw m14 demilled to semi auto he said it is legal and he purchased 36 back in the early 80's from a company in Florida that refurbished the guns and installed new nm barrels the gun is all trw and is a u.s. rifle i have been searching the web and have found different stories from web pages one such says (the m14 was designed as a selective fire weapon.under federal law,any receiver so designed remains a "machine gun"forever.and another web page says that there where some very rare amended m14 weapons for public sale so I do not know what to do he has as well a h@r and Winchester with the same deal and if this is a legitimate deal then what is the trw worth?any help please.


YOUR SO SMART THANKS THIS BUD IS FOR YOU
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 9:26:36 PM EDT
Jail bait. Leave this one the hell alone. This is the same thing MKS burned everyone on awhile ago (selling rewelded receivers).
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 4:09:33 PM EDT
OK, it's probably jailbait.

But not necessarily.

Yes, BATF sez that "Once a machine gun, always a machine gun." But if a machine gun receiver has been destroyed -- demilled to BATF standards -- it is nothing more than scap metal. And yes, it is legal to take that same scrap metal and build a new, legal semi from the pieces.

In the case of an M14, this involves a LOT of precision welding, as well as reheat-treating the completed receiver.

MKS got burned because BATF decided, retroactively, that the U.S. military's demilling process did not meet BATF's requirements for thoroughly destroying the receiver. Thus, the cut receivers never lost their "MG-ness" and BATF called upon its "once an MG" motto to seize MKS's products.

FWIW, BATF used to accept band-saw cutting as a proper demilling process. Today, they require that receivers be torch-cut and that a center section be removed and melted down. Thus a lot of "scrap metal" receiver pieces that were demilled via band cuts in the '60s and '70s have suddenly been resurrected as improperly demilled (and still illegal) MGs.

So if asm1's dealer bought guns that were built on band-cut receivers, yup, BATF would prolly class them as MGs. About all BATF would do if they found out about them, however, would be to ask the owner to surrender the receiver for destruction. It's doubtful asm1 could be prosecuted.

However, if the guns can be proven to be built on mismatched receiver sections, or that new sections had to be fabricated to rebuild them, then they are legal......

Aw, screw it, go buy a Springfield M1a!!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 4:22:52 PM EDT
There was a fellow in the 70's who got approval to make some rewelds. They are legal as long as the selective fire notch is completly removed from the reciever. I'd make sure it is a correctly demilled one before purchase.

The criminals at MKS rewelded several hundred recievers BEFORE even applying for ATF approval and continued to sell them after the ATF requested they stop. Mike Kelly is a criminal and lied to every customer he ever had, I know because I got robbed by him.

Save yourself some grief and buy a Springfield. The only legal true semi-auto M14's were a small lot of ATF approved for civilian sale match rifles from the 60's. They are rare and expensive.
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 6:31:06 AM EDT

The only legal true semi-auto M14's were a small lot of ATF approved for civilian sale match rifles from the 60's. They are rare and expensive.


There were a few M14's built from scratch as semi-auto National Match weapons by one manufacturer (HRA?). They were not BATF approved and they still considered them machine guns and attempted to confiscate them. The courts, however, did not agree with the BATF and said that the rifles were legal under Federal law. I believe the court case involved only a few rifles with specific serial numbers.
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 6:54:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2002 6:55:29 AM EDT by 7IDL]
now I recall (somewhat vaguely) that some M14's were permanently rendered Semi only and were available thru the DCM or a similar program for something similar to the CMP program (competitive shooting). They were very limited in numbers. I did hold one in my hands at one time. Maybe this will spark someone's memory...(??)



oops, I shoulda read ALL the posts before adding mine!
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 7:07:53 AM EDT
Read Fulton-Armory's opinion on re-welded receivers in their M-14/M1A section.

They have lots of problems with them.
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 1:19:05 PM EDT
Buy the gun for the TRW USGI parts (Becoming rare these days),Torch Cut the receiver in half, Pick up a Chinese Receiver on Ebay & Have the Fulton armory build you the best M14 clone around.
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 6:19:32 PM EDT
What's his asking price? What proof, other than his word, that they are legal?

If the price is low enough it may be worth it to buy it first and do as garr suggests. Or you could contact ATF to find out if it is legal first. If he wants $500 for it, buy it first, if he wants $1000 for it maybe you should contact ATF first. If you buy it first when you contact ATF let them know if it turns out to be illegal that you wish to "Abandon" it. Then you can remove all the parts and turn the receiver over to ATF.

If you contact ATF they won't run out and bust you, you are showing good faith. I'd also suggest you tell the seller of your plans, his reaction may be all you need to know if it is legal.
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 6:44:00 PM EDT
thanks to all of you for the info and please keep it coming
here is some new info on these guns they are saw cut receded recievers and they where built in 1980 and the dealer purchased them under atf supervision and payed federal exsize tax on these m14 weapons he has 1 winchester one h@r one trw and one m21 .he said he will wright a bill of sail on these m14 rifles and said they are legale but also said that if the wrong atf agent saw it he or she would stroke and seaze the m14 but under fedrale law would haft to release the m14 back to the owner because these where sold to a ffl dealer and fedral exsize tax was paid and axepted by the fedrale goverment. so what do you all think ? i realy wont a real m14 trw so will most likley buy the trw tomorrow maybe.the trw is $1100.00
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 7:31:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 7IDL:
now I recall (somewhat vaguely) that some M14's were permanently rendered Semi only and were available thru the DCM or a similar program for something similar to the CMP program (competitive shooting). They were very limited in numbers. I did hold one in my hands at one time. Maybe this will spark someone's memory...(??)



oops, I shoulda read ALL the posts before adding mine!



I remember something like that too. I thought there was info at the CMP web site but I couldn't find it.

Here is another link with some info: www.jouster.com/lanestips/cmpm14.html
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 5:58:04 AM EDT
First off, the CMP NEVER offered any M14's for sale. They loaned them out to STATE RIFLE TEAMS to be used in service rifle competitions. The team could loan the rifles to individual riflemen under fairly strict custody control rules, and when the team or the CMP called the rifles in they had to be immediately surrendered. Some rifles were illegally sold out of this program by unscrupulous individuals.


Second, MKS's receivers were NOT demilled by the US government. They were demilled under old demill regs by the Israeli government. The crux of MKS's case seems to be that the laws were current when the demill work was done. But then, everything about MKS is pretty muddy, legally speaking.


Third, Once a Machinegun, Always a Machinegun is NOT simple ATF policy. It is just verbal shorthand for FEDERAL LAW, drafted and voted upon by CONGRESS and signed into law by the president. I'll quote it here for you:

"Title 26, United States Code, Chapt. 53 (The National Firearms Act)
Sub-Chapter B-General Provisions and Exemptions
Part I-Subsection 5845-Definitions

(b). Machinegun: The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, IS DESIGNED TO SHOOT, OR CAN BE RESTORED TO SHOOT (emphasis mine), automatically more than one shot, without manually reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."


What this basically means is that if the receiver parts used by MKS or anyone else could, by welding or any other technical wizardry be restored to function as a machinegun, then the thing is still a machinegun.

The demilling laws were not written to make it harder to restore a demilled receiver to functional status. They were written and enacted to provide a mechanism by which a military firearm could be DESTROYED. The intent is that the receiver NEVER be restored to it's prior use, except perhaps as scrap steel poured into the crucible for re-use as base metal.

Every time technical advancements have made restoring demilled guns feasible, those demill procedures have been tightened up to take away that feasability. That demonstrates the CLEAR intent of the law and regulations. Efforts to circumvent that intent then tend to stand out as violations of that intent and the law.

MKS may technically be O.K. if they can prove that their receiver halves were properly demilled under the laws of that time and thus had become, legally, scrap metal. Then, technically, they might just win the court case and the receivers be restored to legal status. But that hinges on the court findng that the legal status as "scrap metal" over-rides Federal Law's definition of a machinegun. That, is by no means certain.

For the record, I don't believe in the restrictions placed on civilian ownership of machineguns, nor do I think the laws preventing further manufacture of machineguns for civilian registration and sale are constitutionally lawful. I also believe that BATF searches for the most stringent and prohibitive interpretations of every law and regulation because institutionally, it is against civilian firearms ownership.

I also think that MKS was targeted for persecution by BATF, but I find that MKS made it easy for them by playing fast and loose with the rules. MKS has also made it a business practice to screw over their customers when the cost of doing the right thing by them was more than negligible. So MKS can go to hell, in my opinion, whether they are legally exhonerated or not.

As for the rifle in question, pop that baby out of the stock and look over that receiver carefully. Somewhere there has to be a marking for the re-manufacturing process (whoever welded it back together). If you can find the name, consider calling BATF to check if they did, indeed, approve the remanufacture.

Simply having paid the federal excise tax on the firearm and passed it through the FFL procedure does not guarantee legality. MKS made a few hundred rifles, sold them as an FFL to other FFL's, paid the excise tax on the rifles etc. and those rifles have still been declared illegal. Those are bureaucratic functions and none of them has any legal ramifications in terms of federal approval of the transfer. In light of MKS difficulties. What I would like to see is a BATF approval letter written to the original manufacturer of the rifle (whoever restored the receivers) telling him that his process was legal. Then of course, you would want to be able to demonstrate that the rifle in your possession was produced by that manufacturer, and thus, covered by the letter. Sound like a lot of hoops to jump through? It is, but if the BATF should decide your receiver is illegal, they WILL take it and you'll jump through a hell of a lot more hoops trying to get it back.
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