I went with the thoughts of Clint McKee from Fulton Armory. If anyone reads his opinion in depth, I think you will agree. Buying sight unseen can have its problems, but again the guys I was dealing with were totaly stand up guys. My thanks. I hate to be such a new guy but I guess this is the learning curve. Original thread follows....
I just bought and brought in on 3 day approval an Armscorp ( apparently built by a private individual on the Armscorp receiver) all USGI M14....everything was great....looked like new bolt, new receiver and pretty good US GI parts. A few needed parkerizing and the gas cylinder plug was messed up. The barrel was USGI and appeared to have been fired very little. All ready to accept it, I was excited......the Forster Go guage worked....the bolt would GO. Put in the Forster NO GO guage and low and behold the bolt closed without the sligtest resistance!! My FFL (also a builder of M14s) looked at me and said bad, very bad. Now, I am having a bad day. I really was attached to the rifle and now it will be winging its way back to the seller.
Maybe it is worth paying $1,900 at Armscorp or Fulton or...........maybe even buy a new Springfield M1A.
Just to maybe save somebody else from going thru the same deal. Might be a good idea to have the seller let you know about the GO, NO GO guages and barrel wear before shipping it half way around the world. My bad.
It's not all sad - at least you can return for a refund.
For that money I would look no further than LRB
I just emailed LRB for availability....Thanks!
Yeah! I am really happy about the refund part....the guys I was dealing with have been totally honorable.
Did the FFL actually find the correct measurement of the HS or just stop at SAMMI 308 No-Go?
Right. Closing on a .308 NOGO is not necessarily a death sentence. It's very possible that that rifle had many years and thousands of rounds of life in it.
I think you should have asked someone else other then your friend. You also did not say if it was a .308 or 762 chamber. I would assume it is .308 but you know what they say about assuming anything. They are not the same. Some speak of them as they are but they are not.
Unless you are building a match rifle for a specific round and only that round it will close on a no go gage. You need a field gage.
If you have not sent the rifle back check it again. If you did give me the seller’s info I might buy it.
Scroll down and read Different's post......He has more than likely done more research on this than you Dealer/FFL/ M-14 Builder who might be looking out for himself and another build job to boot.
USGI barrels are 7.62 NATO chambers and sounds like your friend might have checked it with a .308 gauge .
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that .308 no go is smaller than 7.62 go .
I think thta if he used the incorrect gauge (.308) instead of the 7.62 NATO the rifle could be perfectly safe and in spec .
My .02 and I could be wrong on the above .
Gentlemen.......I really appreciate the help.......yes, it was a .308 gauge..........yes, it is a
GI barrel...........but read what follows from warrifles.com.........
03-25-2005, 05:42 PM #2
Join Date: February 5, 2005
Posts: 217 Gaging:
The procedure is the same, dis-assemble the rifle, remove the extractor and ejector,firing pin from bolt, place bolt in receiver, attach op rod to bolt engage the op rod in the race, be sure chamber is free of debris and oil, place "GO" gage in chamber, close bolt......if bolt does NOT close, there is insufficient head space, ream chamber to proper depth.....if bolt closes COMPLETELY, remove "GO" gage and replace with "NO-GO" gage.......if bolt does NOT close....Great! you're ready to re-assemble.....BUT! if the bolt closes on the "NO-GO" gage........remove the "NO-GO" gage and replace with "FIELD" gage, (if available) .....If bolt closes on the "FIELD" gage....red tag the rifle and do NOT fire until repaired or adjusted, if the bolt will NOT close on the "FIELD" gage........there is excessive head space but not so much as to render the weapon non usable.(This is a subjective conclusion, some say the rifle should be red tagged if the "NO-GO" gage fails, others say that the rifle is still battleworthy even with excess head space, I suggest that in a sporting rifle, failure of the "NO-GO" gage should be reason enough to dis-continue use until repaired or adjusted, why take a chance?)
This is off of the above referred post:
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Location: West Hartford, Connecticut, USA I would not shoot commercial .308 ammunition in a bone stock Chinese M14 or a Federal Ordnance M14 with Chinese barrel unless I knew the headspace reading. Springfield Armory, Inc. does headspace M1A rifles in the range of 1.631 " to 1.633 ". Smith Enterprise, Inc. M14 rifles typically headspace at 1.633 ". Armorer built M1A/M14 type match rifles in the 1970s were headspaced at 1.6355 ".
SAAMI NO GO is 1.634 " for .308 Winchester. (so my headspace is greater than 1.634..by some amount as the bolt met no resistance at all...freely closed ) IIRC Fulton Armory has a FAQ article on their web site that says you're okay with commercial .308 up to 1.636 ". (which means..???? is it marginal to shoot commercial .308 in this rifle?) Past that, use 7.62x51 mm NATO ammunition up to 1.6405 " which is NATO NO GO. Beyond that you need to see a M14 gunsmith.
Man, this becomes quite difficult to decipher.................
Gauge * . 308 Win * 7.62 MM NATO * 7.62 MATCH *
GO (Minimum Chamber)* 1.630 +.002 * 1.6355 +.0005 * 1.6355+.002
NO-GO (Max Chamber) * 1.634 * 1.6405 +.0005 * 1.6385
Field (Reject) * 1.638 * 1.6455
* Using "component" bolt
He just stopped at the Sammi No GO .308 He did not have a field gauge or other way to measure actual chamber dismension.
OK, THEN, HERE IS THE BIG QUESTION.....IF I KEEP HIM FROM SENDING IT BACK MONDAY MORNING AND WE CAN FIND A WAY TO CHECK HEADSPACE, WHAT IS THE MAXIMUM I SHOULD ACCEPT ON A SUPPOSEDLY JUST RECENTLY PUT TOGETHER RIFLE............IT IS SUPPOSEDLY UNFIRED SINCE IT WAS BUILT UP ON THE ARMSCORP RECEIVER WITH GI BARREL??????
I am, of course, continuing to research this. I went to Fulton Armory FAQ on M14/M1a and found this in the FAQ referencing 7.62 x 51 and .308 by Clint McKee:
"So, why set a very long 1.636 headspace in an M14/M1A or M1 Garand? It probably is the conflict mentioned above. Military headspace gauges say one thing, SAAMI headspace gauges say something else, as do the spec's/compliance covering ammo. In a court of law, who will prevail? I think Kuhnhausen gave all those who do this work a safe way out. However, I believe it not in your, or your rifle's, best interest. Whether you have a NATO chambered barrel (M14/M1 Garand G.I. ".308 Win."/7.62mm NATO barrels all have NATO chambers), or a .308 Winchester chamber, keep the headspace within SAAMI limits (1.630 GO, 1.634 NO GO, 1.638 FIELD REJECT). This subject is a bit confusing, and for me difficult to explain in a one way conversation!
PARDON ME, BUT I THINK THERE IS THE ANSWER..........
unless of course you read this AR15.com post: Which one is correct?????
The M14 Rifle, like all self loading firearms, requires a little looser headspace than a bolt action rifle, the usual SAAMI spec. Here's the data:
M14 minimum headspace (GO): 1.634"
M14 factory maximum (NO-GO): 1.638"
M14 field maximum: (FIELD or REJECT): 1.6445"
M14 GO is the same spec as SAMMI NO-GO. Don't let some gunsmith tell you your rifle is out of spec 'cuz it closes on a NO-GO gage. The M14 should accept the SAAMI NO-GO gage to be in spec.
M14 NO-GO, the gage it should not close on before it leaves the factory (but afterwards it doesn't matter a bit) is the same as the SAAMI FIELD-REJECT gage! No problems at all if you close on a SAAMI FIELD gage. NO-GO gage is to provide factory accuracy and maximum life in service. This is not a safety gage.
M14 FIELD-REJECT. It's doubtful your rifle will ever wear to this point but swapping bolts around can result in this massive length. Note again, this is not the same as the SAAMI field gage!
I received a call from a shop rebarrelling one of my rifles that the bolt would "almost close" on a SAAMI FIELD gage. Of course they wanted to sell me a $100 bolt body in trade for mine! My response was, of course, "Great, it meets specs!"
Your M14 will probably function on the range using the tighter SAAMI specs, but too tight a chamber will often result is operating problems. The SAAMI minimum (GO) spec is a very short 1.630" and you will likely have problems that short. Match M14 Rifles (an oxymoron the past few years) are usually speced at a tight 1.631" or 1.632". You're on your own in this length.
GO = Minimum chamber size when new.
NO-GO = Maximum chamber size when new. Only when new!
FIELD = Maximum chamber size in service.
My $0.02, a professional gunsmith will tell you to only use commercial .308 Winchester with M14 type rifles that meet SAAMI headspace specifications. It's the old CYA. I can't blame them at all. After all, we live in a litigious society. I'm not a professional gunsmith. When in doubt, take the safe route. If your professional M14 gunsmith, says NO GO to the deal, play it safe and pass on the purchase unless you want to spend the money to rebarrel the rifle to SAAMI specification.
From the Fulton Armory FAQ on .308 vs. 7.62x51mm, Kuhnhausen seems to put the limit on using commercial .308 Winchester at 1.636 " headspace. It's in the same article you quote from at www.fulton-armory.com. You can buy a 1.636 " headspace gauge from www.brownells.com. I have one. It is made by Clymer and so marked.
If you want to play it safe, only shoot NATO 7.62x51 mm ammunition in a rifle with headspace between 1.634 " and 1.6405 ".