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Posted: 8/19/2005 9:58:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 6:35:34 AM EDT by niceguymr]
Recent threads I've been reading about shotguns along with an itch to try something new has gotten me interested in purchasing a shotgun. Let me also start by saying that I know absolutely nothing about shotguns, and their features. All I know is that they can do a lot of damage.

For years I've considered owning a shotgun, but never reaally decided to look into them. The following explains what I think I'd like to have. Please keep in mind that this will likely be the only shotgun I'll ever buy, so I'm not really looking for something for a bigginer or first time owner that plans to upgrade later.

1) I'd like something in the shortest barrel legally available. Would that be 16" or 18"? I think the main reason I'd like a short barrel is b/c it would mostly be for home defense use, although I may consider using it in a 3 gun match (I know these are 2 completely different uses for a shotgun). Also, I'd just like to keep is as short as possible for tactical maneuverability and weight.

2) I'd like it to be semi-auto and not pump. If someone can explain to me why they prefer a pump action, I'd be curious.

3) It has to be 12 ga.

I've looked around online and have seen a few interesting shotguns. There are 2 that have caught my eye are the Remington 1100 Competition Master and the FN Tactical Police Shotgun. I know these are 2 totally different shotguns and that's why I'm having trouble deciding. The only thing I don't like about the Remington is the 22" barrel length. The only thing I don't like about the FN is the pump action, however the price seems great (I saw one for sale new in box with a Cmore sight for $549 - That just seems really inexpensive to me). Unfortunately, there's really no place for me to test shoot various different models, so I'm just going to have to buy something I think I'll like and stick to it.

Can someone please help me figure out which shotgun to buy? (It doesn't have to be one of the above mentioned ones)

Also, If I buy one online, does it have to ship to an FFL like any other firearm?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 10:11:21 AM EDT
Remington 870.
Hands down the most reliable, customizable, and best all around shotgun I have ever used.

With semis, you have to be concerned if you cut down the barrel in regards to reliability. Most semis get real picky about loads when you do that.

And the pump isn't much of a liability in a HD situation. All you have to be concerned about is if YOU short pump it.

Plus, the chambering of a round with a pump action shotgun is a damn good sound. . . .
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 10:49:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 10:54:14 AM EDT by CFFUTS23]
I'm a huge fan of shotguns and currently own four 12 gauge shottys, so I have some experience. I'm assuming you are looking for a tactical shotgun and not a hunting gun and here is my two cents on considerations:

- Semi or Pump: I prefer pump since you can always shuck a bad shell out of the gun. It also gives you the flexibility to use bean bags or other ammo that won't cycle a semi. If you are looking for the ultimate flexibility you can spend $1k or more on a semi/pump model, like a Benelli M3.

- Barrel length: the shortest non-NFA barrel you can buy is an 18” and some companies make it tough to buy 18” barrels. For example, Remington offers a handful of models that have 18” barrels (Marine Magnum or Police Models), but it is pretty tough to find a factory new Rem 18” barrel to put on a shotgun you already own. It is better to buy a model with an 18” barrel and then buy a hunting barrel later if you do decide to hunt.

- Another consideration is whether or not you are going to purchase a shooter. If you are going to shoot a 12 gauge often, then I’d personally go with a fixed stock and not an aftermarket folder or an AR style stock like the FN (I’ve shot it and an AR stock isn’t something you want to use if you are firing a lot of rounds). If you plan to occasionally shoot the gun, then it is fine to go with a folder or an AR stock. If you can find one, Remington offers a police model folder that folds over the top of the gun and is comfortable to shoot. They can be tough to find in new condition, but mine works well.

- Last consideration is accessories. If you want a shotgun with a rail, then I’d consider the FN since the KAC aftermarket rails for the Remington guns are expensive and hard to find. Also, I’d recommend buying a Remington, Mossberg, Winchester or FN since accessories are widely available (less so for the FN) that other brands. Finally, figure out what accessories you want in advance so you can make sure the accessory you want is made for your gun whether it is Surefire, Knoxx, etc.

My favorite shotgun was built up as I tried all the accessories until it evolved into my perfect gun: Remington 870 Police, with 18” barrel, +2 mag extension, 6 round side saddle, tritium rifle night sites and a fixed Choate Pistol Grip (Mark 5) stock w/tactical sling. Remington 870s can be found in most every police dept in the country so you know they are reliable, plus every accessory available is made for an 870. It is something similar to the Wilson Home Defense, but I spend my Surefire money on my AR. In it's current configuration, it costs $550 so built it yourself and save a few bucks.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 11:35:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 11:35:56 AM EDT by brentwal]
Winchester 1300 Defender.

In 12 or 20 ga. Full length mag tube, better controls, better barrel-bolt lockup.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:30:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 7:32:09 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By CFFUTS23:
I'm a huge fan of shotguns and currently own four 12 gauge shottys, so I have some experience. I'm assuming you are looking for a tactical shotgun and not a hunting gun and here is my two cents on considerations:

- Semi or Pump: I prefer pump since you can always shuck a bad shell out of the gun. It also gives you the flexibility to use bean bags or other ammo that won't cycle a semi. If you are looking for the ultimate flexibility you can spend $1k or more on a semi/pump model, like a Benelli M3.

- Barrel length: the shortest non-NFA barrel you can buy is an 18” and some companies make it tough to buy 18” barrels. For example, Remington offers a handful of models that have 18” barrels (Marine Magnum or Police Models), but it is pretty tough to find a factory new Rem 18” barrel to put on a shotgun you already own. It is better to buy a model with an 18” barrel and then buy a hunting barrel later if you do decide to hunt.

- Another consideration is whether or not you are going to purchase a shooter. If you are going to shoot a 12 gauge often, then I’d personally go with a fixed stock and not an aftermarket folder or an AR style stock like the FN (I’ve shot it and an AR stock isn’t something you want to use if you are firing a lot of rounds). If you plan to occasionally shoot the gun, then it is fine to go with a folder or an AR stock. If you can find one, Remington offers a police model folder that folds over the top of the gun and is comfortable to shoot. They can be tough to find in new condition, but mine works well.

- Last consideration is accessories. If you want a shotgun with a rail, then I’d consider the FN since the KAC aftermarket rails for the Remington guns are expensive and hard to find. Also, I’d recommend buying a Remington, Mossberg, Winchester or FN since accessories are widely available (less so for the FN) that other brands. Finally, figure out what accessories you want in advance so you can make sure the accessory you want is made for your gun whether it is Surefire, Knoxx, etc.

My favorite shotgun was built up as I tried all the accessories until it evolved into my perfect gun: Remington 870 Police, with 18” barrel, +2 mag extension, 6 round side saddle, tritium rifle night sites and a fixed Choate Pistol Grip (Mark 5) stock w/tactical sling. Remington 870s can be found in most every police dept in the country so you know they are reliable, plus every accessory available is made for an 870. It is something similar to the Wilson Home Defense, but I spend my Surefire money on my AR. In it's current configuration, it costs $550 so built it yourself and save a few bucks.



First off, Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm beginning to learn more about shotguns the more I read here. What I find interesting is that nobody has recommended any semi-autos to me, even though I mentioned that I would consider possibly using it for a 3 gun match. I understand that the pump actions are not as finicky with load choices, but what other reasons are people not recommending semi-autos? Is it b/c of the price? I went to Outdoor World today and I saw the price difference (about $500) between the Remington semi-auto and pump action of the same sort of rifle, so I could understand if that's a big reason that people go with the pump... But is that the main reason? Personally, I don't go for the "chambering sound of the pump" as being a good reason to have one. If you've had to chamber it, unfortunately for the other guy its probably to late to make a difference.

CFFUTS23,
A special thanks to your reply. I seem to have learned quite a bit from it, and I really like the idea of the one you built that resembles the Wilson Tactical Home Defense Model. I REALLY LIKE THAT ONE!!! What if I wanted that same exact configuration but in a semi-auto? Could you help me out by tellilng me exactly the components I'd need to buy, starting with the actual model of the shotgun? Presumably it wouldn't be the 870 since those are pump actions. What would be the semi-auto equivalent of the 870? Do they make it in that 'Marine' finish that the 970 is available in? (I believe it's nickel plated or something like that) Anyway, it sounds good to me that you built what sells for by Wilson Tactical for $1100 for $550 instead. WOW!!!! I'd like to save that kind of money if I can without buying used.

Also, I checked out the Benelli M3 and liked that one a lot too. I'm not so sure I'm ready to spend that kind of money on the shotgun but it's not out of the question. (I never thought I'd spend as much on my AR as I have... no where NEAR as much as I have... lol) I guess if I'm going to buy an 870 and dump a bunch of money into upgrading it, the the M3 might not be a bad option.

Lastly, If I'm going to end up with a pump action, The FN Police Tactical is still looking attractive to me. I hear you about the comfort of shooting it alot not being so good. I really wouldn't be shooting it that much, but who's to say for sure?!?! Is it really that bad? What attracts me to the FN so much is that I'm seeing them NEW IN BOX on Gunbroker for $549 WITH a CMORE SIGHT included, plus I like the accessory rail, plus I like the fact that it also uses A2 style sights both front and rear (like the AR), plus the reputation that FN has for the quality of their products. It just seems like too good a price to pass up. What do you think?

Anyway, thanks again everyone for taking the time to help me out here.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:45:21 AM EDT
Well i know this isnt the anwser your gonna look for... try some out you got anyone you know with a shotgun ask if you can use it....but you say you cant so... i would recomend a mosseberg 500 BIG 5 runs a sale around here 220 will get you a 18'5 inch barrel and a 28 inch barrel now yes it is a pump but do you want to go and drop a lot on a semi and maybe not like it could you really sell it that easily or for what you think its worth? And i REALLY like 1100's own 2 of em and i recomend you not get them cuz

1. you have to clean those things to have them work for you (870 could never be cleaned but should be just not near as much)

2. Dont buy the 1100's cuz i dont want to see that you took a good base gun sawed the barrel yourself and put a huge ext. tube on it... it horrifys me cuz im a trap shooter and love seeing beautiful wood and blueing.

this might or might not have helped you but i still say you do get a starter gun it might save you time and money if you dont like shotguns.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:47:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 9:51:20 AM EDT by DBerk]
oh and a side note whatever gun you get i think you should try trap with it unless its a pistol grip you might really like it and its fun

your also right those prices on wilson tactical look really high you could make it yourself you just have to find out what base model they used police or express?
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:53:16 AM EDT
I had a Mossberg 590 Special purpose. It's a pump gun, but it was fun and seemed reliable. It had a 20" barrel and 9 shot capacity. I sold that to a buddy of mine...

I actually just bought an M1 Super 90. It's semi-auto, has a pistol grip, ghost rings, and a 18.5" barrel. I've got the 4 shot mag extension for it, so I believe it holds 7 rounds plus 1 in the chamber. If you want a nice auto, buy a Benelli. I'd stay away from the M3, as its not a true pump gun. Every time you want to pump it, you have to manipulate something near the front of the mag extension.

Or if you live in a state where NFA items are legal, you can get the benelli M1 Super 90 entry. Same gun as above, but with a 14" barrel. Altough I'm not sure if you'd get in trouble using it for home defense?
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 2:37:03 PM EDT
I went to the local funshow today and picked up my 1st shotgun:

Remington Police Magnum with an overfold stock (New production, New in box). It cost me $450 out the door. I could have gotten an 870 Express Magnum for around $300, but then I would have ended up changing the stock and foregrip anyway. I will try to post pics later tonight.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 7:45:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:31:29 PM EDT
Here's a picture of it. I'm ready for any suggestions on customizing this baby.

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 8:55:45 PM EDT
Try it as is first. If something isn't right to ya , or ya wanna add stuff later go for it. Try shooting with the stock folded if thats how you intend to use it for defense. Nice purchase by the way.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 9:22:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 9:23:46 PM EDT by Currahee]
I've got a top folder on my 870 Magnum. It's not that bad for the first few shots and I LOVE the compactness but after 10-15 rounds it looks like somebody hitme on the face. I'm gonna put a Remington synthetic stock on it to start shooting competitively.

ETA: it's also going to get a sidesaddle because that is flat out the fastest way to reload.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 10:33:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 10:37:29 PM EDT by niceguymr]
Yeah, I just ordered a 6 round side saddle for it and this:
Deluxe Heatshield with AR15 style Ghost Ring Sights (I really don't like the simple little bead sight on the front of the barrel. It's like there's nothing to aim with)
THIS IS NOT MY EXACT RIFLE - JUST SHOWING THE HEAT SHIELD WITH AR TYPE GHOST RING SIGHTS ON A SIMILAR RIFLE


The next thing I'd like to add is a foregrip with built in tactical light holder like the Sure-fire, but it's pretty expensive so I'll wait on that one.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:45:51 PM EDT
MY advise: Pass on that goofy assed heatshield. If you dont like the bead sight(?), try a set of real GRS. XS makes the best IMHO and are the way to go, if you're gonna do GRS. I happen to like rifle sights, but that all a personal preference.

If this is gonna be fore HD/plinking/3-Gun like you indicated, the bead sight will do fine. You might even get one of those really nice, oversized marble bead sights that have the tritium in them. One of my fellow competitiors has this sight, and its really fast.

With enough practice, you'll be able to hit man sized gongs out to 100+ meters with that "simple little bead sight on the front of the barrel". All the neat lil gadgets can never substitiue proper practice.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 7:58:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
MY advise: Pass on that goofy assed heatshield. If you dont like the bead sight(?), try a set of real GRS. XS makes the best IMHO and are the way to go, if you're gonna do GRS. I happen to like rifle sights, but that all a personal preference.

If this is gonna be fore HD/plinking/3-Gun like you indicated, the bead sight will do fine. You might even get one of those really nice, oversized marble bead sights that have the tritium in them. One of my fellow competitiors has this sight, and its really fast.

With enough practice, you'll be able to hit man sized gongs out to 100+ meters with that "simple little bead sight on the front of the barrel". All the neat lil gadgets can never substitiue proper practice.



+1, don't be a marketing patsy. Beads rock!
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 8:41:21 PM EDT
I'm guessing the folder wouldn't close right on top of the heatsheald sights either.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 10:40:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 10:42:40 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By Currahee:
I'm guessing the folder wouldn't close right on top of the heatsheald sights either.


Good question, though they solved that problem. ATI has an adaptor that relocates the rear (ghost sight) to the front portion of the pivot point on the folding stock... Therefore, it doesn't interfere. Not bad for a $3.50 upgrade.

ETA: I really don't plan on shooting this gun much. It's mostly going to be an HD weapon, and an ocassional range toy. I hope to try it out in a 3 gun match, but that's only a side thought. I really just bought it to have a nice, well equipped HD shotgun and I think the little mods will help make it better.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:55:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:00:43 AM EDT by Mesa_Tactical]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
ETA: I really don't plan on shooting this gun much. It's mostly going to be an HD weapon, and an ocassional range toy. I hope to try it out in a 3 gun match, but that's only a side thought. I really just bought it to have a nice, well equipped HD shotgun and I think the little mods will help make it better.



We make accessories to bling up shotguns. We and most of our customers believe our accessories add real value to the platform in certain situations. But when folks ask us what we recommend for their throw-it-in-a-closet-and-forget-about-it home defense guns, we always recommend they buy the $220 Mossberg at Big 5 and leave it stock (maybe replacing the too-long stock with a shorter one from Hogue or Speedfeed).

The thing is, accessories add complexity to the platform, and this added complexity can cause problems during moments of stress. With our own products, we insist that owners and operators should train with them to become familiar with the system. If you are not an operator or shooting enthusiast and don't intend to do a lot of range time with the weapon, the best course is to leave it as simple as possible.

I think we spell all this out somewhere on our website.

This is not to say we are opposed to hotrodding your shotguns. We simply suggest that you either train, train, train with your blingy gun; or if you don't have the time or inclination to train, get a cleaner, simpler weapon for home defense while you tart up your safe queen (and we have nothing against safe queens, as long as they aren't confused with home defense weapons; we have quite a few safe queens of our own).

BTW, I think even most experienced shotgunners would be very surprised how accurately you can shoot slugs at 100 yards with just the bead sight.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:53:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
MY advise: Pass on that goofy assed heatshield.

fuck that... i say that you should pass on anything made by ATI. stick with quality products.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:54:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 10:03:28 AM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
MY advise: Pass on that goofy assed heatshield.

fuck that... i say that you should pass on anything made by ATI. stick with quality products.



The overfold stock that came on my Remington Police Magnum is made by ATI, was installed by Remington at the factory, and that is how it came in the original sealed box from Remington. Not to say that's a reason to believe that ATI makes quality products, but one can argue that if Remington ships their shotguns with an ATI Overfold stock, then it can't bee too bad. However, I have also handled and played around with this stock quite a bit since recieving it and I have to admit that it is super sturdy and solid as a rock. There is absolutely NO play in movement, and when you unfold it open, it locks solidy into place and feels just like its a permanent extension of the receiver. Chips, perhaps you should call up Remington and tell them what idiots they are for using ATI stocks and that their 870 brand product team are morons and should be fired for choosing such garbage to put on one of their fine rifles.

The main reason I decided to go with the ATI Heat Shiel with Ghost Ring Sights is simply because it was far less expensive (total cost around $25) than most of the currently available aftermarket sights, and the ATI doesn't require me to drill and tap the reciever to mount it. Generally, I'm a firm believer in the saying "You get what you pay for", but I decided to roll the dice on this one. Worst case scenario I've dumped about $25, but I don't believe that will be the case. The heat shield alone is not a terrible idea, and the sights can be removed at any time. Can anyone with actual experience using this product provide any honest and real feedback, or are the people knocking it here simply doing so because it's not made by Gucci Gear?

ETA: I would like to add and remind that obviously I'm not very experienced with shotguns. The main reason I added the Heat Shield with Ghost Ring Sights is simply because I couldn't grasp the concept of aiming with just a little beed on the top front of the barrel. I'm used to having a front and rear sight to line up, and I just didn't feel like I could tell where I was aiming just using the bead. I'm sure practice (something I don't have much time for) would have resolved that problem a bit, but I just wanted something better than a little bead as a tool for aiming. I also liked that the design of the ATI sights are similar in style to AR15 sights in both the front and rear, which is a platform I'm much more familiar and comfortable with.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:56:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 9:57:32 AM EDT by PBIR]
Bro, you don't need ghost rings. Shoot the shotty with the bead sight, give it a try. If you feel the need to pimp your shotgun out for "range cred" save yourself a headache and get quality ones down the road.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:08:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Bro, you don't need ghost rings. Shoot the shotty with the bead sight, give it a try. If you feel the need to pimp your shotgun out for "range cred" save yourself a headache and get quality ones down the road.



OK, fine. I plead ignorance. Can somebody please tell me how you're supposed to aim with just a single beed on the front end of the barrel, and nothing in the rear? Can someone please describe the sight picture? I honestly just don't get it yet.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:11:01 AM EDT
Mount the weapon, sight down the top of the barrel. place bead on desired point of impact. Squeeze trigger. Giggle like a schoolgirl. Repeat.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:47:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 11:48:57 AM EDT by mike103]
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:21:26 PM EDT
If you are not going to practice much with this shotgun, you'll need to understand that GRS or even RS arent going to make you any better with it. Practice. Find time, and do it. Find your proper stance so recoil is not an issue. Shoot some birdie, and some buck, know what you and your shotgun are capable of. If you dont do this, how will you expect to use this weapon effectively should the need arise.

Some one mentioned cheek weld. That folding stock is gonna hurt you if/when you try to get a cheek weld. First of all, they arent pleasant on the shoulder at all, and they damn sure arent pleasant on the face. Ifin you're up for that kinda punishment, those 3-inch magnums will go great.

Get yourself a fixed stock. Stick with the bead. Practice as much as you can. Gadgeting your shotgun and nor knowing what to do with it will only make you look foolish.

As for ammo, you bought the shotgun knowing it was gonna recoil, so find THE ammo you and it shoot the best and use it, whether its low recoil/tactical, or regular Dram.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:04:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Can anyone with actual experience using this product provide any honest and real feedback, or are the people knocking it here simply doing so because it's not made by Gucci Gear?



I don't like heatshields. I don't care who they are made by. They scratch the barrel on installation and removal, and you can't get to the barrel to rub oil on it to keep it from rusting. I have removed heatshields from guns that came with them and thrown them away.

All the comments on beads are correct. You look across the top of the receiver, put the bead on the target, and squeeze the trigger. You really can't go wrong. Try it.

as far as brands go, some of ATI's stuff is good, some isn't. I don't recommend their mag tube extensions, but I like their stocks. I've got my Winchester Defender done up in ATI

http://www.2guntom.com/shotguns/winchester5/IMAG0005.JPG

That is an ATI pistolgrip buttstock with an ATI 5-shell carrier attached to it

http://www.2guntom.com/shotguns/winchester5/IMAG0003.JPG

and an ATI pistol grip forend with ATI flashlight adapter at the bottom. The flashlight is a Brinkman LX

http://www.2guntom.com/shotguns/winchester5/IMAG0002.JPG

These stocks were on my Remington 870 and the gun has been fired a lot, daytime and night. I switched and put them on my Winchester and it has been fired too. The light is very bright, bright enough that I can pick up the bead.

I have no complaints on ATI. I don't like their mag tube extensions at all, but when I complained ATI was glad to do what ever it took to make me happy; and they did! I was impressed that they took the time to call me to investigate the problem. They are nice folks.

I've got SpeedFeed pistolgrips and pistolgrip buttstocks. They are well thought out and well designed. They seem to have a keen sense for good ergonomics.

The reason I detailed my experience with ATI is because I agree with you on the Gucci Gear comment. I don't feel you have to pay top dollar for accessories, but there is a flipside. If your life depends on it, and you went with something cheaper, you'd darn sure better test it. I've tested ATI and they passed on the items above(except the mag tubes). Of course we can spin this the other way too. I've seen the top notch high dollar stuff fail too! People that pay top dollar just expect it to work becaue it cost so much.

I'm in rural nowheresville. When I go for for a walk in the woods, I could encounter bear, panther, ferral hog, ferral dog, or boar. I test my stuff because my life may very well depend on it.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:30:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 5:02:53 AM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By 2guntom:

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
Can anyone with actual experience using this product provide any honest and real feedback, or are the people knocking it here simply doing so because it's not made by Gucci Gear?



I don't like heatshields. I don't care who they are made by. They scratch the barrel on installation and removal, and you can't get to the barrel to rub oil on it to keep it from rusting. I have removed heatshields from guns that came with them and thrown them away.

All the comments on beads are correct. You look across the top of the receiver, put the bead on the target, and squeeze the trigger. You really can't go wrong. Try it.

as far as brands go, some of ATI's stuff is good, some isn't. I don't recommend their mag tube extensions, but I like their stocks. I've got my Winchester Defender done up in ATI

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/winchester5/IMAG0005.JPG

That is an ATI pistolgrip buttstock with an ATI 5-shell carrier attached to it

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/winchester5/IMAG0003.JPG

and an ATI pistol grip forend with ATI flashlight adapter at the bottom. The flashlight is a Brinkman LX

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/winchester5/IMAG0002.JPG

These stocks were on my Remington 870 and the gun has been fired a lot, daytime and night. I switched and put them on my Winchester and it has been fired too. The light is very bright, bright enough that I can pick up the bead.

I have no complaints on ATI. I don't like their mag tube extensions at all, but when I complained ATI was glad to do what ever it took to make me happy; and they did! I was impressed that they took the time to call me to investigate the problem. They are nice folks.

I've got SpeedFeed pistolgrips and pistolgrip buttstocks. They are well thought out and well designed. They seem to have a keen sense for good ergonomics.

The reason I detailed my experience with ATI is because I agree with you on the Gucci Gear comment. I don't feel you have to pay top dollar for accessories, but there is a flipside. If your life depends on it, and you went with something cheaper, you'd darn sure better test it. I've tested ATI and they passed on the items above(except the mag tubes). Of course we can spin this the other way too. I've seen the top notch high dollar stuff fail too! People that pay top dollar just expect it to work becaue it cost so much.

I'm in rural nowheresville. When I go for for a walk in the woods, I could encounter bear, panther, ferral hog, ferral dog, or boar. I test my stuff because my life may very well depend on it.

2guntomwww.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif



Thanks 2guntom!!!

It's great to see people posting opinions based on real life experience, and you give good clear and concise reasons to avoid using the heatshield. Damn, I was kind of excited about it b/c of the built in sights, but I still have time to change my mind and return/exchange/resell them if I don't use it.

Regardless of what people say about the beed sight, I know I'm going to want to change it to a 2 part system (front and rear). I hear what people are saying to me about how to aim a shotgun, but I like having both a front and rear sight to form a precise picture when shooting. I'm not really a hunter, so for me the fun of shooting this shotgun would be for accuracy... therefore, I'll probably end up shooting more slugs than buckshots. Yes, I'm prepared to be sore if that's what it takes. Oh well. The way I see it, if I can shoot slugs well, I'll have no problems with buck shot.

So....
Can anyone recommend to me a simple and inexpensive front/rear sight system for an 870? I imagine that I'll have to pay a gunsmith to drill/tap to install these sights. What should I expect to pay for this type of service?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:41:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 7:49:09 PM EDT by Currahee]
My topfolder is ATI its an OKay put together accesory and I'm not unhappy. I did sand down the edges of it though. As I mentioned it's hell on the cheek but I love the size advantage. I'm going with a fixed to be able to compete (but I'm not getting rid of it.) I have rifle sights on mine but I don't look at them as much of an advantage. Like most of these guys say if you master the right cheek weld there is nothing wrong with a bead sight. Figure, if people use it to shoot skeet, there really can't be anything faster.

ETA...I had to insert this pic concerning ATI though
(I don't blame them, they should build whatever they can sell)
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:23:16 AM EDT
I have never shot a remington 870 but I can say I like the Winchester 1300 defender MUCH better than the Mossberg 500. Buddies own both. Winchester is nicer overall.

These are both pumps. I personally have never seen a defense shotgun in semi-auto.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:27:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 12:29:05 PM EDT by 2guntom]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Regardless of what people say about the beed sight, I know I'm going to want to change it to a 2 part system (front and rear). I hear what people are saying to me about how to aim a shotgun, but I like having both a front and rear sight to form a precise picture when shooting. I'm not really a hunter, so for me the fun of shooting this shotgun would be for accuracy... therefore, I'll probably end up shooting more slugs than buckshots. Yes, I'm prepared to be sore if that's what it takes. Oh well. The way I see it, if I can shoot slugs well, I'll have no problems with buck shot.

So....
Can anyone recommend to me a simple and inexpensive front/rear sight system for an 870? I imagine that I'll have to pay a gunsmith to drill/tap to install these sights. What should I expect to pay for this type of service?



I went through the Brownell's catalog and I am seeing shotgun sights from $50 - $200; that's just the sights. Installation/gunsmithing is extra obviously. Do you have a gunsmith nearby? Does the place you bought your gun at have one or recommend one? I would discuss this matter with a competent 'smith to discuss options and get a quote. Find a reputable 'smith; there are a lot of so-called gunsmiths that do really lousy work.

The other option you should investigate is buying a barrel with rifle sights on it already. The Remington site showed several to choose from. Mossberg even shows a couple. Click the link and scroll down http://www.mossberg.com/acatalog/pricebarrels.htm This route would keep you from doing something you can't undo quickly. If you have two barrels, you can always sell off the one you like the least to recoop some money. Or keep both and you can swap back and forth as your shooting needs demand.

I like options, but I prefer options I can undo if I screw up. And unfortunately, I've screwed up more than once.

2guntomhttp://www.2guntom.com/454/group/2gunsfiring_v1.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:21:25 PM EDT
Wow, this thread took off. To answer your question, the 1187 is the semi-auto version of the 870, but I'm happy to see you got an 870.

On the accessory front, I've also got the folding stock (although mine is factory Remington vs. ATI). I've since replaced it with the fixed Choate Mark V - but mine is a shooter and I prefer the shorter Choate stock vs. long metal....

Also, I didn't think the heat shield was too important, although I have one on my Mossberg 590. Your shoulder will hurt long before the barrel is too hot to hold.

I found the ghost ring sites to be a bit slower vs. my rifle sites, plus my rifle sites have tritium inserts so they can be used in low light situations.

Finally, I like the side saddle for quick reloads and all of the information can be puchased at the Wilson tactical website that I mentioned earlier. I'll quick rambling now and I'm sure you will be happy with your 870.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 2:08:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 2:23:41 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By CFFUTS23:
On the accessory front, I've also got the folding stock (although mine is factory Remington vs. ATI).



Yeah, I was originally really leaning toward the 1100, but I figured I can completely pimp out my 870 for less than the cost of a stripped down basic 1100. Plus, I just happen to come across a good deal at the local funshow, so I had buyers impulse. I know with the Top-folding stock, I can expect a good deal of shoulder impact... and they don't make any buttpads to cover it. I'll see how long I can deal with it before having to change to a regular full stock. Hopefully, I can just get used to it and be happy.

The factory Remington folding stock IS made by ATI. It's hard to find, but if you look very carefully under the pivot point of the buttpad, it says "Advanced Technology, Inc.". I don't understand why so many people have issues with ATI products. Remington obviously doensn't have those issues. What's funny is that even the dealer who sold me the rifle told me that the folding stock was factory Remington. I didn't notice that it was ATI until after I got home and it occurred to me to check it out more closely. Apparently he had never looked closely enough at it either to see that it was actually ATI. I would also like to add that I personally opened the sealed box that it came in from Remington, and everything was nicely sealed and taped up just as it left the factory, so I doubt anyone pulled a switcheroo.

It's hard to read what it says here on the label of the box b/c I'm either a crappy photographer or my camera sucks. Let's just say it's probably both. Anyway... Here's what it says:

MODEL 870 POLICE PARKERIZED
PUMP SHOTGUN - 2 SHOT EXT
18" IC BBL 12GA BEAD SIGHT
TOP FOLDING STOCK/SYN FORE-END
Made in Ilion, NY



Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:41:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 4:42:56 PM EDT by 12345-678910-11-12]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

The factory Remington folding stock IS made by ATI. It's hard to find, but if you look very carefully under the pivot point of the buttpad, it says "Advanced Technology, Inc.".



Well, this means one of two things.

A) The dealer who sold you that Remington opened the box, took off the $100 Remington factory folder and replaced it with a $40 ATI topfolder, assuming (correctly) that you wouldn't know the difference and that if he told you that it was a factory stock, you would believe it since from a distance, a factory Remington topfolder and the ATI clone of a factory Remington topfolder both sort of look alike.

B) Remington no longer produces their own factory topfolder, but now contracts with ATI to do it (I believe this one is just behind 'hell freezing over', but ya never know)

Pics- First one is a metal Remington Factory Top Folder.
Note the METAL construction of the stock arm, and the METAL construction of the butt plate.



Next we have the ATI clone of the Remington topfolder

Note the whole construction is of 'glass filled nylon' which is fancytalk for 'pretty much plastic'.




Methinks you got screwed on your topfolder, kemosabe. Either that, or Remington is seriously contracting with ATI as an OEM for their topfolders now, which would be a true tragedy.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:37:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 5:46:25 AM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

The factory Remington folding stock IS made by ATI. It's hard to find, but if you look very carefully under the pivot point of the buttpad, it says "Advanced Technology, Inc.".



Well, this means one of two things.

A) The dealer who sold you that Remington opened the box, took off the $100 Remington factory folder and replaced it with a $40 ATI topfolder, assuming (correctly) that you wouldn't know the difference and that if he told you that it was a factory stock, you would believe it since from a distance, a factory Remington topfolder and the ATI clone of a factory Remington topfolder both sort of look alike.

B) Remington no longer produces their own factory topfolder, but now contracts with ATI to do it (I believe this one is just behind 'hell freezing over', but ya never know)

Pics- First one is a metal Remington Factory Top Folder.
Note the METAL construction of the stock arm, and the METAL construction of the butt plate.

nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/036298000/36298909/pix835345187.jpg

Next we have the ATI clone of the Remington topfolder

Note the whole construction is of 'glass filled nylon' which is fancytalk for 'pretty much plastic'.

www.m1surplus.com/ebay/advanced_tech_folding_stock_shotgun_700694166.jpg


Methinks you got screwed on your topfolder, kemosabe. Either that, or Remington is seriously contracting with ATI as an OEM for their topfolders now, which would be a true tragedy.



First off Tonto , you may be 100% correct are incorrect on either of the scenarios you mentioned, so this is not an argument that I will fight tooth and nail. I will gladly call up Remington tomorrow to find out exactly what the deal is to put this issue to rest. However, I would like to point out a few things:

1) The box that I opened was FACTORY sealed. Having worked in retail before, I used to know how to take an open box item and repack and reseal it so that it was virtually undetectable that it had ever been opened. To the best of my repacking/resealing expertise, this box had never been opened. Everything inside looked as thought it had just been packed off the assembly line. If it was opened, repacked and resealed, this guy was a pro at doing it.

2) When I first noticed the 'plastic' stock, I immediately inquired about it. I told the guy that "I thought they were supposed to be metal. Are you sure this is from Remington?" He said "Yes, this is how they are now shipping from the factory. "These (he said while pointing to a stack of boxes of the same model) are the first ones we've ever gotten in configured this way". He went on to say that these are their brand new models and that they're not even in their catalog yet.

3) I'm new to the whole shotgun market and know nothing about the quality of certain aftermarket manufacturers including ATI. Perhaps you've handled ATI products before that were crappy, or maybe you just heard someone say that they were crappy. Perhaps even you've handled this particular product (the top-folding stock) and are forming your opinion from that. Regardless of your past experiences with ATI or what you may have heard, I can assure you that this product is SOLID AS A ROCK. It's mechanisms are very smooth and fluid, and when it's unfolded, it locks into place and has absolutely NO play whatsoever. When locked open, it feels as though it is simply an extension of the reciever, not some flimsily attached piece of whatever material it may be. It is extremely lightweight and has no rough edges. Frankly, without even ever having handled one of their "metal" construction factory top-folders, I would think that the "plastic" (as you called it) would be much more forgiving on recoil, not to mention lighter in weight (Kinda like a certain brand of handgun that I will mention momentarily). I see absolutely no reason or flaws with this device that would keep Remington from adding as an accessory to their product line. I would also like to remind you that many people for many years have criticized and ridiculed Glocks as being cheaply made "plastic" guns, yet many others consider them to be some of the best guns ever made. You're probably not one of the latter.

In conclusion to this statement, the dealer may have possibly pulled did not pull a switcheroo. I will be contacting Remington to verify for sure. If he did in fact switch the stocks, I will be certain to notify Remington and himself in order to have the original stock shipped to me free of charge. I'm sure Remington would not like to hear that one of their dealers is swapping out parts and selling them as Remington parts, not to mention that if he did that, it is illegal (knowingly misrepresenting a product). The guy I dealt with is the owner of his business and a class 3 dealer. His business card has the Remington logo as well as a few other major manufacturers on it. I'm sure he doesn't want any problems from disgruntled customers.

-Kemosabe

ETA: Just curious about the other Police Magnum pictured above: How old is it? What length barrel is it? What type of barrel is it? Did it come with a 2 shot extension mag? Does it have swivel studs, and if so, where are they located? What color is the follower inside the magazine tube? What is the exact model/order number? Does it say "Remington 870 Police Magnum" or does it just say "Remington 870 Magnum" on the left side of the receiver? Is that a parkerized finished? It doesn't look like it, but I can't say for sure. I'm only asking these questions just in case I need to start building my case for delivering a tounge lashing to the dealer who MAY have pulled a switcheroo. Thanks. I don't want to make any false accusations, but I do want to be as well informend as possible. I've already seen a few different variations of so called "Police Magnums" on gunbroker, and some of them have tell tail signs that they are not 'factory' police magnums, but rather 870s equipped to LOOK like police magnums. It is also possible that Remington has simply change the configuration of it's 870 Police Magnum Rifles to reflect modern improvements.

Nevermind.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:26:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 5:51:50 AM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:
B) Remington no longer produces their own factory topfolder, but now contracts with ATI to do it (I believe this one is just behind 'hell freezing over', but ya never know)

Methinks you got screwed on your topfolder, kemosabe. Either that, or Remington is seriously contracting with ATI as an OEM for their topfolders now, which would be a true tragedy.



Well, get your thermals and mittens on, b/c I believe hell's about to start freezing over.

I just got off the phone with Remington. Verified by my serial number, my shotgun was manufactured in July 2005 (last month) and Remington now uses the Advanced Technology Top-Folding stock. Their previous (metal) top-folding stock had experienced many problems with breakage and malfunction. They experimented with the ATI stock, put it through rigorous testing and discovered it was better built and more reliable than their original metal stock. I guess your stuck with that piece of crap metal stock unless you want to spend a little extra money for the upgrade. Sorry dude. Look on the birght side though... Maybe yours may become a collectible some day

For further information, contact Remington at 1-800-243-9700 and ask for their Law Enforcement Sales Division.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:11:25 AM EDT
I've never used an ATI product, so I can't comment. My Remington - old style - factory top folder didn't suit my needs so it was replaced. I didn't like the hard plastic funky pistol grip, but it looks like the new ATI grip is better designed.

Does the new ATI grip have a slot in the middle that allows it to folder over rifle sights? I may have to try one out.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:17:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CFFUTS23:
Does the new ATI grip have a slot in the middle that allows it to folder over rifle sights? I may have to try one out.



Yes, it does.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:27:23 AM EDT
Good job on the research! Thanks for checking into that, and thanks for sharing.

It is funny how many urban legends there are related to firearms. All it takes is one sour puss speculator and everybody hates a product that they've never tried. Hilarious!

Everybody says the Remington 870 is better than the Winchester 1300. So for all those, the ATI stocks must be the best too because Remington is putting them on the 870P.

Love it, love it, love it.

Thanks again, niceguymr.

2guntom
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:32:52 AM EDT

Everybody says the Remington 870 is better than the Winchester 1300.


I've shot them both, plenty. It's a ford vs chevy thing. Neither has ever failed me in any way. The only advantage a 870 has is there is more aftermarket crap accessories for it. Both are great shotguns. I went with the 1300 b/c I got a good deal on it and I like the way it locks up better.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:27:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:07:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 11:07:50 AM EDT by 12345-678910-11-12]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Their previous (metal) top-folding stock had experienced many problems with breakage and malfunction was too expensive to produce. They experimented with the ATI stock, put it through rigorous testing and discovered it was better built and more reliable than far cheaper to contract with ATI as an OEM than it was to procdue their original metal stock.

I guess your i'm stuck with that piece of crap metal plastic stock unless you I want to spend a little extra money for the upgrade.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:24:52 AM EDT
I think the only thing you really need is a weapon mounted light now. I've messed around with a lot of crap on my shotguns and most of those accesorys are in a big box now, exept for the lights.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:41:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Their previous (metal) top-folding stock had experienced many problems with breakage and malfunction was too expensive to produce. They experimented with the ATI stock, put it through rigorous testing and discovered it was better built and more reliable than far cheaper to contract with ATI as an OEM than it was to procdue their original metal stock.

I guess your i'm stuck with that piece of crap metal plastic stock unless you I want to spend a little extra money for the upgrade.




There's nothing wrong with admitting you were incorrect about your assumptions. You're just making an ass of yourself by continuing to deny what has been proven right before your eyes. Typical asshat newbie/troll behavior.

ANY stock will be less expensive than producing metal stocks that break, malfunction, and have to be replaced. So you're going to fault the company for finding a solution that saves them (and their customers) time and money? Would you say the same thing if the ATI Stocks cost $200?

I'm sure you've never handled an ATI Topfolding stock on an 870. I guess you figured that b/c it's the internet, you can post whatever BS you want and people will believe you. Next time you're going to make stuff up and post it in a technical forum, at least get your facts straight so you don't get owned like you just did here.

What's even funnier is that despite hell freezing over, it's like 92 freaking degrees out here today.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:45:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 11:58:54 AM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By Jimmy_Hoffa:
I think the only thing you really need is a weapon mounted light now. I've messed around with a lot of crap on my shotguns and most of those accesorys are in a big box now, exept for the lights.



Yeah, I was thinking the same thing too. I originally was going to order the Surefire forend light system, but instead opted for the Surefire picatinny forend rail system (just purchased from the EE) so that not only can I mount whatever light I want (in my case, it will be the SF G2 Nitrolon), but then I can also mount whatever type VG I want as well. I still haven't figured out which one though I think I'd like one that is canted similarly to the pistol grip of the ATI stock. I thought about the Crimson Trace AR15 VG Laser Grip, but then I thought.. nah. Too much money. Anyone have any other suggestions for a canted pistol grip VG that can be rail mounted?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:21:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 12:29:42 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:



The hit's keep coming!!!

The reason he's bashing the ATI stock is becasue this asshat is tyring to boost the percieved value of his 870 for sale on Gunbroker.com. Check out this link (cut and paste)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=36298909

Please do not hotlink as it will violate ARFCOM CoC, but DO check it out...

First of all, his is not even a Police Magnum. It's an 870 Express Magnum which costs around $100 - $150 less than the Police Magnum. The differences betweent the Police Magnum and the Expres Magnum can be viewed here:

Differences between Express Magnum and Police Magnum

"has a Remington Factory folding stock for the 870. This folder is much better than the plastic folders out there" and why is that again?????

"has the For Law Enforcement Only stamped, but anyone can own these now" Wow, really? I can own one of these now too??? Holy crap!!!

Auction ends in 4 hours and no bids yet. Sorry to hear it. Maybe you'll get lucky and start a bidding war in the last few minutes.

So Asshat... Are you in Mississippi (as stated here on ARFCOM) or South Bend, Indiana (as stated in your gunbroker add)??? Man, the BS just keeps piling up higher and higher.

... Time to check out the EE too ...

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:20:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 1:29:20 PM EDT by 12345-678910-11-12]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:
The hit's keep coming!!!

The reason he's bashing the ATI stock is becasue this asshat is tyring to boost the percieved value of his 870 for sale on Gunbroker.com. Check out this link (cut and paste)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=36298909

First of all, his is not even a Police Magnum. It's an 870 Express Magnum which costs around $100 - $150 less than the Police Magnum. The differences betweent the Police Magnum and the Expres Magnum can be viewed here:

Differences between Express Magnum and Police Magnum

"has a Remington Factory folding stock for the 870. This folder is much better than the plastic folders out there" and why is that again?????

"has the For Law Enforcement Only stamped, but anyone can own these now" Wow, really? I can own one of these now too??? Holy crap!!!

Auction ends in 4 hours and no bids yet. Sorry to hear it. Maybe you'll get lucky and start a bidding war in the last few minutes.

So Asshat... Are you in Mississippi (as stated here on ARFCOM) or South Bend, Indiana (as stated in your gunbroker add)??? Man, the BS just keeps piling up higher and higher.

... Time to check out the EE too ...




Dude, super double digit IQ stuff you have going on there in that post.

I wanted to show you the difference between an ATI stock and a Remington Factory Folder (since you didn't know), so I found pictures of both.

You really aren't a bright man. The fact that this was 'just too difficult' for you to figure out on your own really speaks to how smart a person you are.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:22:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 1:30:07 PM EDT by 12345-678910-11-12]

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

ANY stock will be less expensive than producing metal stocks that break, malfunction, and have to be replaced. So you're going to fault the company for finding a solution that saves them (and their customers) time and money? Would you say the same thing if the ATI Stocks cost $200?

I'm sure you've never handled an ATI Topfolding stock on an 870. I guess you figured that b/c it's the internet, you can post whatever BS you want and people will believe you. Next time you're going to make stuff up and post it in a technical forum, at least get your facts straight so you don't get owned like you just did here.

What's even funnier is that despite hell freezing over, it's like 92 freaking degrees out here today.



No, this is an exmple of things being made 'cheaper'.
Much like plastic trigger guards, safeties, etc- it is a helluva lot CHEAPER to make the things out of mold injected plastic.
Not 'better'; cheaper.
I'll say that again. It isn't 'better', it's 'cheaper'.

You will notice what I said earlier is that it was a total posibillity that Remington- a fine and respected firearms company, would be OEM'ing with ATI for such a POS to put on their guns- although I was betting against it.
Well, sadly (for Remington) I was wrong.
And you are stuck with a POS (that you will defend to your dying breath since it's what you are saddled with) from the same company that makes such fine 'accessories' as these :

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:35:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By niceguymr:

Originally Posted By Jimmy_Hoffa:
I think the only thing you really need is a weapon mounted light now. I've messed around with a lot of crap on my shotguns and most of those accesorys are in a big box now, exept for the lights.



Yeah, I was thinking the same thing too. I originally was going to order the Surefire forend light system, but instead opted for the Surefire picatinny forend rail system (just purchased from the EE) so that not only can I mount whatever light I want (in my case, it will be the SF G2 Nitrolon), but then I can also mount whatever type VG I want as well. I still haven't figured out which one though I think I'd like one that is canted similarly to the pistol grip of the ATI stock. I thought about the Crimson Trace AR15 VG Laser Grip, but then I thought.. nah. Too much money. Anyone have any other suggestions for a canted pistol grip VG that can be rail mounted?


The ONLY one I'm aware of is the AR15A2 type grip that mounts to a rail. Can't think of who sells'em at the moment, not hard to find though.
BTW, I have an ATI top folder on one of my Winchester 1300s, I love it!
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 1:41:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jimmy_Hoffa:
Originally Posted By niceguymr:
The ONLY one I'm aware of is the AR15A2 type grip that mounts to a rail. Can't think of who sells'em at the moment, not hard to find though.
BTW, I have an ATI top folder on one of my Winchester 1300s, I love it!



I just found AR15A2 style rail mount grip on the Bushmaster website. I may have to give that one a try. It's a long proven grip design.

Glad you like your Top folder too.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:00:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 2:20:09 PM EDT by niceguymr]

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:
No, this is an exmple of things being made 'cheaper'.
Much like plastic trigger guards, safeties, etc- it is a helluva lot CHEAPER to make the things out of mold injected plastic.
Not 'better'; cheaper.
I'll say that again. It isn't 'better', it's 'cheaper'.




Ok then... Let's get technical here and quit with the pussyfooting around.

Can we agree on the following statements:

1) The ATI is lighter than the metal stock.

2) The material is more flexible, thus possibly aids in reducing percieved recoil. (I'm no expert, but my buddy who's a structural engineer agrees with me on this.)

3) Injection molded plastic is less likely to corrode or rust, and therefore could possibly better withstand humid environments. Additionally, a metal stock left out in the sun on a 95 degree day would be much more painfull on your cheek than a 'plastic' stock.

4) The ATIs cost less to produce, ship, and replace. (BTW, that's a good thing)

5) Where stealth tactics are required, swinging and locking metal parts are noisier than 'plastic'. (I know, I'm digging pretty deep here - I'm a salesman. It's in my nature to bring out the most obscure benefits to any product)

6) If it were better for stocks to be made of steel, then why are most shotgun and rifle stocks made of either wood or synthetic plastics? Generally speaking, the most important parts of any gun to be strong are the receiver and barrel. Stocks and grips are mostly made of wood or plastic (and often padded with rubber) for the shooters comfort, as well as for performance. Why on earth is a metal stock more desireable/better than a 'plastic' stock? (Let's not forget that nearly every AR stock out there is made of some sort of 'plastic')

So my point is...

Why do you so strongly feel that the ATI is a POS compared to your metal stock? Why is your metal stock better? Do you think it's better because it's heavier and costs more to produce?

P.S. 2 hours 20 minutes remaining on your auction with no bids. The shotgun you are selling can be purchased NEW at basspro for $249 (after mail in rebate). Maybe you should lower the asking price down a bit from $450, don't ya think???? (or is that collectible metal stock worth over $200)


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