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Posted: 8/14/2004 2:03:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 2:08:57 PM EST by Msokol13]
Help me decide

I will most likely SBR whichever one I choose, choice should be based on price and ease of parts and availability.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 2:26:59 PM EST
9mm AR

Fairly simple, parts pretty easy to find. You're already familiar with the system.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 4:19:38 PM EST
Airsoft, everything else will be outlawed soon..
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 4:26:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Airsoft, everything else will be outlawed soon..



With that attitude they will be.. Hopefully there are no other gun owners that think like you
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 4:39:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 1:25:03 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 4:49:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 4:50:01 PM EST by Corbic]


Maybe someone has thought of a compelling reason to have their rifle/carbine chambered in a pistol round. If so, let's hear it.



Yes, the United States Military actually thought of it 50 years ago. The fact is that a Pistol is a POS. Under no circumstance would I ever want to use a pistol to shoot it out with someone, not to mention pistols are typically more fragile and expensive to produce when compared to a rifle or shotgun. It’s a long standing fact that when pistols go against rifles/shotguns, your pistolteer always loses. The M1 Carbine was the US Gov.s answer to the need of a pistol (light, compact) but with the flexibility and accuracy of a rifle. Pistol cartridge rifles provide minimal recoil, light ammunition (er, unless 45acp et al.) and are small and compact (well an AR isn’t but an Uzi sure is). They are designed for close quarters combat, not sniping across a field.

Don’t think of it as 9mm Uzi Carbine vs. M-14, but more so as 9mm Uzi vs. 9mm Glock. What would you rather have in a shot out a MP-5 or a Glock?

Jack Corbic

PS: Go for the Uzi, I'm sure they will be banned long before AR's ect, so get one while you can, I doubt anyone will take it away. Also Vector is a great company and that is an awsome price right now.
Link Posted: 8/14/2004 5:59:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2004 6:00:58 PM EST by Msokol13]
I have fired numerous rifles with select fire capabilities here is a short list:

Ak-47
M-16
M-4
MG-42
G-3
MP-5
Uzi
Hk-53
1919A1

Out of all of these rifles/carbines the only ones I felt comfortable shooting(controlled) were in .223 or smaller caliber, even the 7.62 X 39mm is hard to control on full auto. To me the closest type of shooting should the SHTF would be room to room CQB, that being said I could carry many times more ammo with a 9mm/.40/45 and be much more accurate. I am simply looking at this from a cheap(ammo) and controllable aspect and going up to the local indoor range. I would not plan on using this carbine for longer shots than 25 meters, I have my M4 for everything else.

P.S. I didnt include rifle calibers because I already have that taken care of. M4 type carbine
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:39:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:21:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By raf:
Even the M-4, firing the inadequate 5.56mm round, surpasses the pistol caliber carbines at short range.



Since when is 5.56 inadequate?
Also, like I said, if you have the choice between shooting it out with a Semi-Auto Glock or a Semi-Auto MP5, what would you want? Carbine is one up from a pistol. A more appropriate argument would be "why would anyone want a pistol?" The carbines at least offer decent accuracy, low recoil and still maintain a compact, light composer.

Sounds to me like you use .308 to hunt rabit, you want to be sure that first hit does the trick.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 12:05:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Corbic:


Sounds to me like you use .308 to hunt rabit,




You don't ?

Link Posted: 8/15/2004 1:17:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 2:16:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 2:18:45 PM EST by ALAN308]
Choice based on price/parts avail.? Pistol cal.?
Sounds like you need a Marlin. Dont laugh until you have smoked a bunch of AR's on their playing field; 70 rd. count action stage. The Marlin is a cheap weapon, has good mfg. support and for what they cost, you could allways keep a fresh dialed in one in the safe, ready for pistol cal. action. 45 or 9mm. Make mine 45. A seven rd. mag in my pistol and 10rd. wilson mags on my hip. This thing will clear the street damn near as well as an 1187.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 3:39:56 PM EST
like it has been pointed out, some of the reasons to use a pistol caliber rifle or carbine are practical ones.

Ammo commonality
ease of use
more accuracy than a pistol at close and even medium ranges
lighter recoil than rifle cartridges

Msokol didn't really say what he was going to do with it, aside from SBR it.

Personally, I'm thinking I'd go either 9mm upper for my AR, or a Beretta CX4. If I can pull off my 'tactical levergun' in .357 and get a supressor for it, then I would also be able to use it for 9mm caliber weapons. After the ban sunsets, this will be prime, since I will be able to thread barrels pretty easily. Uses would be pest control, hunting smaller game (with the 357) and use in carbine matches (no ranges over 50 yards). The ammo cost, commonality and ease of control will make it worth it to me.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 4:05:54 PM EST
I am really interested in a 9mm carbine. The big debate for me is a Vector Uzi carbine or the Ruger PC9. However Im leaning more and more towards the Uzi. We have the Ruger in 40 s&w at work, and it is a handy, good shooting rifle. The Ruger has ghost ring sights and hitting a steel plate at 80 yards is no problem. But, the Vector Uzi just looks cool, I know it has a long barrel that sticks out 8 inches past the barrel nut but still it has a cetain appeal. From what I gather over at UziTalk the full size Uzi carbine is ruggedly built and with good mags you can't stop it. Uzi mags are cheaper than Ruger mags right now.
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 10:47:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By raf:
No offense, but I have never understood the all-too-common desire to lug around a rifle/carbine, and semi-neuter it by firing pistol cartridges through it.
If you're going to go to the trouble/expense of carrying a rifle/carbine, then why not chamber it for the most effective cartridge available?
Maybe someone has thought of a compelling reason to have their rifle/carbine chambered in a pistol round. If so, let's hear it.
Note that the thread author did not mention whether or not the end result woluld be compatible with a carried pistol. Even then, the concept is still questionable, IMHO.



Becuase you get shitty/zero frag range when using a .223 out of such a short barrel (11.5, 10", etc); thereby making the .223 a slightly glorified .22 WMR. A bigger hole is better if you can not rely on fragmentation, and for CQB a 9mm or better yet a .45ACP SBR would be a more accurate and more lethal of a choice than an equal length .223.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:25:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 7:45:29 AM EST by Dawg180]

Originally Posted By raf:
No offense, but I have never understood the all-too-common desire to lug around a rifle/carbine, and semi-neuter it by firing pistol cartridges through it.
If you're going to go to the trouble/expense of carrying a rifle/carbine, then why not chamber it for the most effective cartridge available?
Maybe someone has thought of a compelling reason to have their rifle/carbine chambered in a pistol round. If so, let's hear it.
Note that the thread author did not mention whether or not the end result woluld be compatible with a carried pistol. Even then, the concept is still questionable, IMHO.



You can't shoot rifle caliber weapons at any of the ranges around me (they are all indoor). If I want to shoot longarm it is .22lr or pistol caliber, or a all-day trip. Good for praciticing skills with the longarm, espeically in the winter months when the outdoor ranges are closed.

Not everyone lives somewhere where they can go shoot in their backyard or have a rifle range less than an hour away....

And not everyone uses their firearms for defense against zombies, so "the most effective cartidge available" may not be what the person cares about. Typically paper bad guys and pop bottles die just as well from pistol rounds as rifle rounds.

Take that raf!

I voted "other" because I wanted to comment:

Uzi I have one, and they rock! Just a fun gun to plug away with. But they are HEAVY- almost 9 lbs loaded which is a lot of weight after a couple of mags offhand. Dirt simple to clean and operate, and definitely has the "cool" factor. The price is definitely right, too! [edited to add] Even with a solid stock it is shorter than my 16" M4. With a collapsible it can be shrunk to 26" or so (Beretta Storm territory).

Thompson: Expensive ammo and heavy as all getout. the 1928 mdel weighs 13+ pounds loaded- yikes! Definitely not a tacitcal weapon!

9mm AR This is probably the most "tactical" weapon, as with enough money it can be setup to use the bolt hold-open. I almost got one of these but had some issues with RRA dicking me around so I went with the Uzi. A more expensive setup than the Uzi, but also grants the benefit of allowing you to train with an AR even on a pistol range, at least in my case. The only downside is that to do a "Colt style" you are putting together a lot of parts and it may take some tweaking to get everything to run properly.

SW5 I had one built up by ORF but it was on a Special Weapons receiver (which was all that was available at the time). Although it has the "cool" factor, realize that you can buy an Uzi AND a 9mm AR15 for the price of an RF94! Mags are also pretty expensive. But Todd at ORF stands behind his warranty 110% so if you dig HK weapons this may be for you. (Just to explain, mine never ran right and the problem was finally tracked to the Special Weapons receiver- the magwell was too loose. Todd @ ORF let me return it for a full refund including return shipping. If I could do it over again with one of his recievers I would defeintely be willing to get one.)



Well, there you go, hope that helps.



Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:33:58 AM EST
13, I've used variants of the choices that you've listed and they're all great designs. What i'm going to do is list what I think of each:

Uzi- Heavy, Ultra simple, Ultra reliable

Thompson- Heavy, Not so simple, Reliable

AR type- Simple, Reliable, Great ergonomics, Got to watch the mags as the rounds will do a flip flop if you go prone too fast or otherwise bump or strike the bottom of the mag

SW5 type- Not as heavy, Not so simple, Great accuracy, Reliable, Great ergonomics
except for the safety


These are my opinions and not meant to be taken as Gospel, just my observations.


Keith

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:41:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 7:42:54 AM EST by Dawg180]
Looks like Keith and me are in total agreement, except he isn't as wordy as me!

Ditto on the HK safety- if you have a stubby thumb it is a pain to reach.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:44:42 AM EST
Grease Gun with old (real) barrel.

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:34:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 8:35:39 AM EST by Corbic]
Ha ha, I have seen those go for around 800. Semi-Auto .45acp. Now I'm told if you get a 9mm one they are worth quite a bit. What about an M1 Carbine? .30 isnt to expensive. Local shop sells it fore 12.99 for a box of 50, good ammunition from what the guys say.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:32:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:43:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Airsoft, everything else will be outlawed soon..



With that attitude they will be.. Hopefully there are no other gun owners that think like you



Are you too stupid to sense a JOKE?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:13:33 AM EST
UZI. I love my 9mm AR, but I wish I had my old (semi-auto) UZI back...
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:21:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 10:30:27 AM EST by drobs]

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Airsoft, everything else will be outlawed soon..



With that attitude they will be.. Hopefully there are no other gun owners that think like you



Are you too stupid to sense a JOKE?



Buddy your joke is getting really old!

I have the Vector UZI and must say it is a blast to shoot. I love going to the indoor range and putting 25rds thru one hole. This thing is awesome. I got my mags from Tapco for $15 each and I have a folding stock being refinished over at Krebs right now. Think I paid $30 for the stock, can't remember. Changing stocks is just a matter of one Allen Screw.

Buddy of mine has one of them Bobcat Mp5 things. I've shot it, it's fun but mags are spensive, gun is spensive, accuracy bout the same as the uzi.

Why own a pistol calibered rifle?

That's as dumb as asking why have more than one handgun or rifle!!!

Do you use your AR to hunt pheasants?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:24:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:

Buddy your joke is getting really old!



Buddy, It's not my joke. I don't even dabble in the Airsoft wars.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:36:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 3:02:29 AM EST by Rabbit9]

Originally Posted By raf:
No offense, but I have never understood the all-too-common desire to lug around a rifle/carbine, and semi-neuter it by firing pistol cartridges through it.
If you're going to go to the trouble/expense of carrying a rifle/carbine, then why not chamber it for the most effective cartridge available?
Maybe someone has thought of a compelling reason to have their rifle/carbine chambered in a pistol round. If so, let's hear it.
Note that the thread author did not mention whether or not the end result woluld be compatible with a carried pistol. Even then, the concept is still questionable, IMHO.



PCC's are compact, accurate, reliable, fast handling and easily suppressed. The 9mm ammunition is dirt cheap, and hp will reliably expand. You can shoot them in any indoor range. All that, and the fact that the PCC's are just plain COOL.

Oh, and by the way ALAN308, if you're beating 9mm AR's with a Marlin, somebody needs to teach those guys how to shoot.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:44:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 10:45:39 AM EST by drobs]

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drobs:

Buddy your joke is getting really old!



Buddy, It's not my joke. I don't even dabble in the Airsoft wars.



Great thanks for the info. So when do you go back to Jr. High?


Moving on...

Those Marlins are nice, too bad Marlin discontinued them.


Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:53:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drobs:

Buddy your joke is getting really old!



Buddy, It's not my joke. I don't even dabble in the Airsoft wars.



Great thanks for the info. So when do you go back to Jr. High?




Who the fuck are you? I don't even know you. What the fuck is your problem with me?

You quoted me, Fucker. I was responding to your attack.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:11:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drobs:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drobs:

Buddy your joke is getting really old!



Buddy, It's not my joke. I don't even dabble in the Airsoft wars.



Great thanks for the info. So when do you go back to Jr. High?




Who the fuck are you? I don't even know you. What the fuck is your problem with me?

You quoted me, Fucker. I was responding to your attack.



Hmm I'm attacking you now?

Do you have anything of value to add to this thread?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:20:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 11:21:04 AM EST by markm]

Originally Posted By drobs:

Hmm I'm attacking you now?

Do you have anything of value to add to this thread?



YOU STARTED THE SHIT!

I'm not gonna let you come at me for no reason, Punk. I'm not gonna take shit off of somebody for no reason. If you have some issue with me, then let's hear it. Otherwise shut your fucking sausage hole.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:24:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drobs:

Hmm I'm attacking you now?

Do you have anything of value to add to this thread?



YOU STARTED THE SHIT!

I'm not gonna let you come at me for no reason, Punk. I'm not gonna take shit off of somebody for no reason. If you have some issue with me, then let's hear it. Otherwise shut your fucking sausage hole.



The issue I have with you is that you add nothing to the threads you reply to. I'm tired of reading your useless posts. You are trolling plain and simple.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:28:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:

The issue I have with you is that you add nothing to the threads you reply to. I'm tired of reading your useless posts. You are trolling plain and simple.



And you starting fights and totally derailing this fucking thread is adding to the thread? If you don't like my replies I'll arrange to have every FUCKING one of them cleared by you before I post it.

I was defending some dude who made a joke from some idiot who, like you, has no sense of humor. I really don't give a mother fuck if my replies don't meet your standards.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:24:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By drobs:

The issue I have with you is that you add nothing to the threads you reply to. I'm tired of reading your useless posts. You are trolling plain and simple.



And you starting fights and totally derailing this fucking thread is adding to the thread? If you don't like my replies I'll arrange to have every FUCKING one of them cleared by you before I post it.

I was defending some dude who made a joke from some idiot who, like you, has no sense of humor. I really don't give a mother fuck if my replies don't meet your standards.



Post something of value sometime and I might be interested, I might even learn something. Otherwise I think you're trolling here with the majority of your comments.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 12:30:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:
Do you use your AR to hunt pheasants?



No, RAF hates 5.56, he is a 7.62 Nato and up only guy, feeling the 5.56 lacks enough power to even kill a squarl. I'm sure he wises the made 12.7mm Assualt Rifles.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 1:41:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 1:53:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:12:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 5:14:30 PM EST by markm]

Originally Posted By raf:

First off, this is the internet, and none of us should take it too seriously.



Amen to that. I generally don't get into this nonsense. Sorry to have the thread derailed so bad
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 7:22:00 PM EST
Back to the topic..... Beretta CX Storm.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:41:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By raf:
I still question the practicality/utility of Pistol Caliber Carbines. But the guy who mentioned being restricted to indoor ranges brings up a couple of points.

First off, find a decent outdoor range where you can practice, even if you have to drive a couple of hours and malke a day of it. No replacing the valuable experience of shooting outdoors over long ranges. That's what makes the difference between a shooter and a Rifleman.
Second:
Whether or not you're successful at finding an outdoor range, think about buying a dedicated .22LR upper. You can practice almost all Rifleman skills with a .22, and for cheap, and almost instantly switch back to your 5.56 upper when the need arises.
Fact is I practice with such a rig during the coldest months of the winter, and find that it gives me an advantage in competition come spring. Might suit you, too.
Give it some thought.

And give my first point some thought. too.




Raf,

I agree with you that a .22 is a great training tool. I personally got bored of shooting groups the size of my thumbnail at 25 yards so I got my Uzi- I get some training with a weapon that has some recoil. Besides, asking a man why he would want a pistol caliber longarm is like asking why he likes blondes when brunettes are obviously the only way to go.

In response to the "drive a couple of hours to a decent range" I would agree with you that you should go to the best facility you can. However with my schedule most of the time I have the option to either go to the crappy indoor 25 pistol range or not go shotting at all....hmmm, what choice do I make here? Sometimes the all day range trip just isn't an option, which is once again why I got the 9mm longarm.

But to each their own!
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 12:46:19 PM EST
My take on the bunch:

Uzi (have had 3 total, all IMI) Reliable yes...also heavy and not ergonomic. Seems like yesterday's technology. Sold them

AR15 9mm (have had 2) These were fun, dirty shooting suckers though...I guess most 9mm blow backs are....Sold them

Thopmson...held one once...that was all I need to do...it took me 15 minutes to get it shouldered properly and it still felt uncomfortable.

HK94 type carbine. (Had a 94, A SW5 and still have a SW5 PDW) I absoultely love these guns. The mags are a bit high, but you can get them much cheaper already. I like the ergonomics and it is very accurate and very reliable.

If you buy the one with the fake can attached to the short barrel.....very easy once the SBR paperwork come through.....


Keep in mind....just MY opinoins.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 5:48:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
Originally Posted By raf:

Oh, and by the way ALAN308, if you're beating 9mm AR's with a Marlin, somebody needs to teach those guys how to shoot.




Sure have seen some 9mmAR's smoke, never have beaten any of them with a Marlin. I have outrun a bunch of AR-15's in 223 though. The Marlin 45 is one of my favorite 'game' guns though I do compete primarilly with an AR. To answer this thread, they[the camp guns] can still be had and they get my vote. Cant knock 9mm AR'S, just can't get Colt mags for them any more. If this changes, and I hope it does, Colt AR-15's in 9mm are impossable to go wrong with, even at double the cost.

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 6:21:43 PM EST
9mm ar
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:58:19 AM EST
Did I mention that the Hk Clones look cool too?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:29:54 AM EST
Nice, what did you pay for it and where did you get it? I like the barrel, its hard to make an HK look good with a full barrel.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:22:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 11:24:32 AM EST by HK_DUDE]
Thanks.

It is a Special Weapons SW5 PDW. I bought it last year from a place on Gunbroker.com. I don't think SW is currently making them anymore......Ohio Rapid Fire might be doing some.

Forgot....$1500

I have since SBR'd it....I removed the fake can
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:58:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 11:59:03 AM EST by monkeyman]
Well, I have an Uzi carbine-really heavy and kind of awkward, kind of over kill in terms of weight for semi-auto but ammo is cheap and mags are available though not real cheap.

I have a semi-auto Sten gun-fairly rare,and hard to find, is really heavy and awkward, but 9mm ammo is cheap and so are mags.

I have CCU, Carbine Conversion Unit for a 45 acp 1911, upper slides on a 1911 pistol frame. Accurate as heck, don't need to go to a gun store to buy and is fun to shoot. Uses standard mags so reliable hi-caps are not really available. But with a .45 you don't need to shoot lots of times.

I have a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 that uses Glock 17 mags-Cheap to buy and feed. It is fun as hell to shoot. Lots of hi-cap mags should be available after the AWB sunsets in Sept.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:31:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:32:27 PM EST by Rabbit9]

Originally Posted By HK_DUDE:
Did I mention that the Hk Clones look cool too?
www.hunt101.com/img/107441.JPG



Not as COOL as the AR's...
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:41:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:53:22 PM EST by HK_DUDE]
Good point..........No, it's not a 9mm, but I had to "see your AR15 bid"

Don't get me wrong...I love ARs......I just lean toward the HK style in 9mm.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:23:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By HK_DUDE:
Good point.....had
Don't get me wrong...I love ARs......I just lean toward the HK style in 9mm.

www.hunt101.com/img/205981.jpg




Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By HK_DUDE:
Did I mention that the Hk Clones look cool too?
www.hunt101.com/img/107441.JPG



Not as COOL as the AR's...href=www.hunt101.com/img/129483.jpg]www.hunt101.com/img/129483.jpg




You guys both SUCK!!

...but, I'm not bitter!

hat
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:46:18 PM EST
Beretta Storm gets a lot of nods from people who own them.
Same with Marlin Camp rifles. Haven't heard much about the Ruger PC series though. They are tempting to me, since I have a P89 and a few mags already for it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:53:30 PM EST



I have a 9mm Colt AR and love it.

But this old style, KelTec Sub-9 with milled aluminum receiver is great, too. Folds and goes places an AR can't. Very accurate. Very reliable. Takes Glock mags.
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