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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/11/2005 9:20:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 9:26:54 AM EDT by LgAnimalVet]
Yesterday some friend and I were out deer hunting. My buddy shot a whitetail doe with his 30-06 at around 100-150yds. Didn't kill the thing right away so we tracked it across a pasture. When I finally saw it, it was along way away. The red dot in my Aimpoint ML2 covered the entire deer and would probably cover two deer standing close together. Anyway I shot 7 times at it and hit it twice. It went down about 20yds from where I shot. Upon examination there were 3 round in it in the center of its body.

Needless to say, everyone in our hunting party was fairly impressed with the Socom being able to reach out that far, and while I won't reccomend my particular setup for over 200yd, it will work in a pinch.

Ammo was Winchester 150gr. soft points. Aimpoint Comp ML2 4moa, placed the bottom part of the red dot on the does back and seemed to be on target.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 2:32:13 PM EDT

...everyone in our hunting party was fairly impressed with the Socom being able to reach out that far...

I won't share my comments on the general firearm knowledge of your hunting party members.

It astounds me how many people think if you shave a few inches of barrel off a rifle that it becomes impotent. The muzzle velocity of a SOCOM is roughly equal to the velocity 75-100yds down range of a full sized M1A. Nobody would blink an eye if you capped a deer at 250yds with a full M1A, yet that is ballistically the same as what you did.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:40:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

I won't share my comments on the general firearm knowledge of your hunting party members.

You did just that with your remark.

What exactly was the purpose of insulting a posters friends because they may not be firearm experts? 95% of the firearm owners or hunters in this country are probably not experts(especially with military firearms), but it doesn't make them idiots either.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 3:49:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

...everyone in our hunting party was fairly impressed with the Socom being able to reach out that far...

I won't share my comments on the general firearm knowledge of your hunting party members.

It astounds me how many people think if you shave a few inches of barrel off a rifle that it becomes impotent. The muzzle velocity of a SOCOM is roughly equal to the velocity 75-100yds down range of a full sized M1A. Nobody would blink an eye if you capped a deer at 250yds with a full M1A, yet that is ballistically the same as what you did.



Doesn't the fact that a clean kill was not achevied at 100-150 yds with '06 make you wonder more? The SOCOM is no deer rifle and as everyone knows I am no fan of it.

I will guess the '06 shot was taken with a Model 70? Now that's a deer rifle
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 4:32:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

...everyone in our hunting party was fairly impressed with the Socom being able to reach out that far...

I won't share my comments on the general firearm knowledge of your hunting party members.

It astounds me how many people think if you shave a few inches of barrel off a rifle that it becomes impotent. The muzzle velocity of a SOCOM is roughly equal to the velocity 75-100yds down range of a full sized M1A. Nobody would blink an eye if you capped a deer at 250yds with a full M1A, yet that is ballistically the same as what you did.



Doesn't the fact that a clean kill was not achevied at 100-150 yds with '06 make you wonder more? The SOCOM is no deer rifle and as everyone knows I am no fan of it.

I will guess the '06 shot was taken with a Model 70? Now that's a deer rifle



That is true. A friend of mine is a surgeon(of all things!), but he is not a very good shot. Still, he is no idiot and he is very enthusiastic about his firearms, so I think that makes up for his skill. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Patriot73,

Just curious, wouldn't the SOCOM fit in as a brush gun, an alternative to a compact lever 30-30 Win? Or are the bullet characteristics just too different for there to be a comparison?

Have a good one!
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 8:31:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2005 8:31:40 PM EDT by Southern_Raider]

Originally Posted By timothy585:
What exactly was the purpose of insulting a posters friends because they may not be firearm experts? 95% of the firearm owners or hunters in this country are probably not experts(especially with military firearms), but it doesn't make them idiots either.


I never used the term idiot.

Firearms expel a lethal payload, and that lethality extends quite a bit further than 150yds. Even a 22lr has a lethal range in excess of that. Expressing wonderment that a 30 caliber rifle with a 16" barrel can kill something at 150yds is extemely curious, especially for hunters. After all, it's not a sling shot.

People who use firearms, and hunters in particular, should appreciate and understand the devastation their tools are capable of wreaking. There are far too many tragic stories showing what ignorance on the matter can do.



OK, after the recent SOCOM thread, maybe I'm a bit keyed up.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:29:42 AM EDT
I suppose the important thing here should be a clean one-shot kill or at least that's what we all strive for. Most of the time it happens and sometimes it doesn't. My humble 2 cents is to hunt with whatever you can shoot accurately and stay within your limits. I have shot deer (instant put downs) with my .223 Bushy, but all shots were < 100 meters and I used Winchester Supreme ammo rated for medium thin skinned game (CX2's and they do come in a 64 grain .223). If I see anything beyond 100 meters, it walks whether it's Boone & Crockett or not. I suppose I'm saying that all rifles are capable of lethal performance when placed in capable hands. I will stay away from the Socom thing because I am too new here and I'm hoping to make a few friends.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:43:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 5:15:52 AM EDT by LgAnimalVet]

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

...everyone in our hunting party was fairly impressed with the Socom being able to reach out that far...

I won't share my comments on the general firearm knowledge of your hunting party members.

It astounds me how many people think if you shave a few inches of barrel off a rifle that it becomes impotent. The muzzle velocity of a SOCOM is roughly equal to the velocity 75-100yds down range of a full sized M1A. Nobody would blink an eye if you capped a deer at 250yds with a full M1A, yet that is ballistically the same as what you did.



That is the point I am trying to make here. Most everyone that hates the Socom, which I might add are quite a few members of this site, refer to it being ineffective because of its short barrel length. I have no problem with it and use it as my new all purpose rifle for about everything.

I believe what most of my stupid, inexperienced hunting buddies were getting at is that they were impressed that the bullet trajectory didn't drop as fast as they expected. When you bring a Socom along with a bunch of people that are toting around 280, 25-06, 30-06, and 30-378's to hunt deer out on the prairie, it gets looks becuase it is not a traditional deer gun. I am confident in its abilities to get the job done or I wouldn't have been using it. If you have a Socom, I am sure you know what I'm talking about.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:50:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 5:04:46 AM EDT by LgAnimalVet]

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Expressing wonderment that a 30 caliber rifle with a 16" barrel can kill something at 150yds is extemely curious, especially for hunters. After all, it's not a sling shot.


OK, after the recent SOCOM thread, maybe I'm a bit keyed up.



You may want to go back and look through some of those threads, that is exactly what several people have stated...the Scout-Squad, hell uva gun, Socom, waste of money, CQB only.

You are taking away the fact that some people will be amazed at. The Socom can and will make hits on medium sized game out to 400-500+yds and put them down. Fact.

I don't give a shit whether you like the Socom or not, but for those that are convinced that it is a <100yd gun that is just not correct. Now I am not saying that it is a 400yd gun because it is not, but it will do in a pinch.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:52:32 AM EDT
If someone sends me the muzzle velocity of .308 ball out of a 16 inch barrel, I will post some trajectory tables.

FWIW, I hunt regularly with my 18.5 inch barreled M1A and feel very comfortable out to my 275 yard zero. Unless the 2.5 inches missing of the socom barrel translates to something obscene like a penalty of 400 fps, I see no reason to be surprised....

Take care,

Brobee.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:02:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BrobeeBiter:
If someone sends me the muzzle velocity of .308 ball out of a 16 inch barrel, I will post some trajectory tables.

FWIW, I hunt regularly with my 18.5 inch barreled M1A and feel very comfortable out to my 275 yard zero. Unless the 2.5 inches missing of the socom barrel translates to something obscene like a penalty of 400 fps, I see no reason to be surprised....

Take care,

Brobee.



I would only think that it would be around 100fps, tops. But to be honest with you I have never looked at velocity to determine whether or not I am going to use a gun. I take it out and see how it shoots at whatever range I think I might have to shoot at. And then I shoot something with it.

Good to see that someone else uses a M1a for the deer huntin'
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:10:14 AM EDT
Here is some velocity data from the Something to ponder with SOCOM's 16" barrel thread. Doesn't look like hardly any difference to me


______________________________________________________________________________________
Originally Posted By hartzpad:
Look up some tests:

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Sept. 2005
18" PTR-91 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2447 average fps
18" PTR-91A1 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2500 average fps
16" PTR-91K w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2441 average fps,
surprising that the 16" barrel is only 6 fps off the 1st 18" barrel PTR-91

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine
24" barrel H-S Precision FBI HTR .308 bolt action had an average of 2462-2623 fps with 4 different types of 168 gr. .308, I expected higher velocities than this for a 24" barrel using the same .308 (Black Hills 168) as the other rifles (the Black Hills 168 average fps was 2552)

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine July 2005
DPMS 16" barrel Panther LR-308T w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2421 average fps

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Oct. 2004
S/A 18" barrel Squad Scout .308 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2503 average fps

Guns & Ammo Combat Arms special issue
DSA FAL 16" barrel w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2504 average fps

What do all these numbers tell us? It seems that using the same ammo and not controlling for other factors (elevation, humidity, temp, etc.) on average you really only lose around a minimum of 6 fps and a maximum of 82 fps going from 18" to 16" given these tests. T


that's fine by me.

Very interesting data.
______________________________________________________________________________________



Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:31:10 AM EDT
7.62 is fine for deer. And I'm sure the SOCOM is an accurate rifle. So where did your friend hit the deer? Sometimes ya gotta let the deer run and bleed out, or the chase will be on for miles.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:57:59 AM EDT

You may want to go back and look through some of those threads, that is exactly what several people have stated...the Scout-Squad, hell uva gun, Socom, waste of money, CQB only.

You are taking away the fact that some people will be amazed at. The Socom can and will make hits on medium sized game out to 400-500+yds and put them down. Fact.


Trust me, we're on the same page. I know what people have stated, and some of it is patently . The only "handicap" of the SOCOM is that the bullet trajectory doesn't match the standard sights, and that the outside effective range is slightly reduced.


Now I am not saying that it is a 400yd gun because it is not, but it will do in a pinch.

Here's where I disagree. I think it's a 500yd gun, as that's about where the more erratic muzzle velocity (due to shorter barrel and incomplete burn) starts to catch up with you. If you can connect with the target, the round will do its job.

The biggest reason I don't have on is that damn muzzle brake on the end. I want a flash suppressor!
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:40:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By timothy585:

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

...everyone in our hunting party was fairly impressed with the Socom being able to reach out that far...

I won't share my comments on the general firearm knowledge of your hunting party members.

It astounds me how many people think if you shave a few inches of barrel off a rifle that it becomes impotent. The muzzle velocity of a SOCOM is roughly equal to the velocity 75-100yds down range of a full sized M1A. Nobody would blink an eye if you capped a deer at 250yds with a full M1A, yet that is ballistically the same as what you did.



Doesn't the fact that a clean kill was not achevied at 100-150 yds with '06 make you wonder more? The SOCOM is no deer rifle and as everyone knows I am no fan of it.

I will guess the '06 shot was taken with a Model 70? Now that's a deer rifle



That is true. A friend of mine is a surgeon(of all things!), but he is not a very good shot. Still, he is no idiot and he is very enthusiastic about his firearms, so I think that makes up for his skill. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Patriot73,

Just curious, wouldn't the SOCOM fit in as a brush gun, an alternative to a compact lever 30-30 Win? Or are the bullet characteristics just too different for there to be a comparison?

Have a good one!



Well, most rifles are a better alternative to a .30-.30 lever. However, my Marlin 336A will kill deer at 200 yds all day. I am just a bit disenchanted by Springfield Armory these days. In my humble opinion, it is not a useless gun, but very unnecessary. For the muzzle velocity the weapon gives at distances to 200 yds, an AR15 makes it really unnecessary. It is my opinion that 7.62 x 51 is THE alternative to 5.56. At 400 yds, you'd be lucky to get a 5.56 round on target before the bullet hits the ground (when shooting at a deer sized animal) Where is the .30 caliber round going to be at 400 yds from a 16" muzzle? I'm not real sure on that but basic ballistic physics would tell me, on the ground or spinning so slow that it would not produce a clean kill, especially given the lack of yaw and fragmentation from a .30 round.

BUT, different strokes for different folks ya know? I'd hump an AR anyday before a 16" .30 weapon. BUT I'd hump a full size M14 anyday before an AR. Just me and my opinion.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:18:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Here's where I disagree. I think it's a 500yd gun, as that's about where the more erratic muzzle velocity (due to shorter barrel and incomplete burn) starts to catch up with you. If you can connect with the target, the round will do its job.




Ok, here's where the thread took the wrong turn. This started as a hunting application, and not a "shooting the enemy" situation. No way, no how does any sixteen inch barrelled .308/7.62 rifle got any business being used on unwounded game at 500 yards.Any animal you hunt is worthy of more respect than using a gun at twice the rifle's realistic effective range on game. In battle, wounding the enemy is fine, wounding critters ain't cool. Anyone taking a 500 yard shot on a deer with a SOCOM (or most other rifles for that matter) needs to be bitchslapped.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:03:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Here's where I disagree. I think it's a 500yd gun, as that's about where the more erratic muzzle velocity (due to shorter barrel and incomplete burn) starts to catch up with you. If you can connect with the target, the round will do its job.

The biggest reason I don't have on is that damn muzzle brake on the end. I want a flash suppressor!



I should say my particular setup is not a ideal 500yd gun, now if you took the ML2 off of it and put on some good glass, you could do some real damage at that range.

That damn muzzle break is a loud SOB!
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:08:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Anyone taking a 500 yard shot on a deer with a SOCOM (or most other rifles for that matter) needs to be bitchslapped.


OK, but are you being critical of the cartridge performance or of the person pulling the trigger?

I'll agree that most people, regardless of caliber, have no business shooting game at that distance, because they are incapable of placing the shot correctly. I think the caliber/rifle combination in this case is perfectly up to the job (500yds), when proper ammunition is used, assuming the person pulling the trigger can make the shot.

Every hunter has an ethical responsibility to know the limitations of himself and his equipment.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:50:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bishopm14:

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Here's where I disagree. I think it's a 500yd gun, as that's about where the more erratic muzzle velocity (due to shorter barrel and incomplete burn) starts to catch up with you. If you can connect with the target, the round will do its job.




Ok, here's where the thread took the wrong turn. This started as a hunting application, and not a "shooting the enemy" situation. No way, no how does any sixteen inch barrelled .308/7.62 rifle got any business being used on unwounded game at 500 yards.Any animal you hunt is worthy of more respect than using a gun at twice the rifle's realistic effective range on game. In battle, wounding the enemy is fine, wounding critters ain't cool. Anyone taking a 500 yard shot on a deer with a SOCOM (or most other rifles for that matter) needs to be bitchslapped.



Couldn't agree more. It's rather un nerving how the ethics of hunting have eroded. I don't think that is the case here though, just a misappropriated rifle. More lack of knowledge than anything I would surmise. I wouldn't take a 500 yd shot at a deer or a bear. I have killed coyotes at about 200 max. Unless I can drop it, I ain't gonna shoot. This is why I don't bowhunt, the odds of killing a deer with an arrow cleanly (for me anyway) are slim to none. It's most likely the arrow would end up in a leg. I'd throw a chinese star at a terrorist but i'd never shoot at a a four legged critter unless I was relatively sure I can cleanly kill it.

I agree that a SOCOM has no place at deer camp. It has no place in combat either. It's a plinker that makes lots of noise and flash.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 11:51:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LgAnimalVet:

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Expressing wonderment that a 30 caliber rifle with a 16" barrel can kill something at 150yds is extemely curious, especially for hunters. After all, it's not a sling shot.


OK, after the recent SOCOM thread, maybe I'm a bit keyed up.



You may want to go back and look through some of those threads, that is exactly what several people have stated...the Scout-Squad, hell uva gun, Socom, waste of money, CQB only.

You are taking away the fact that some people will be amazed at. The Socom can and will make hits on medium sized game out to 400-500+yds and put them down. Fact.

I don't give a shit whether you like the Socom or not, but for those that are convinced that it is a <100yd gun that is just not correct. Now I am not saying that it is a 400yd gun because it is not, but it will do in a pinch.



I will almost promise you you will drop nothing at 500 yds with a SOCOM. Sorry, but taking that shot is unethical in my humble opinion.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 2:49:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Originally Posted By timothy585:
What exactly was the purpose of insulting a posters friends because they may not be firearm experts? 95% of the firearm owners or hunters in this country are probably not experts(especially with military firearms), but it doesn't make them idiots either.


I never used the term idiot.

Firearms expel a lethal payload, and that lethality extends quite a bit further than 150yds. Even a 22lr has a lethal range in excess of that. Expressing wonderment that a 30 caliber rifle with a 16" barrel can kill something at 150yds is extemely curious, especially for hunters. After all, it's not a sling shot.

People who use firearms, and hunters in particular, should appreciate and understand the devastation their tools are capable of wreaking. There are far too many tragic stories showing what ignorance on the matter can do.



OK, after the recent SOCOM thread, maybe I'm a bit keyed up.



Sorry about my response. I interpreted your quote differently than what you meant.

Have a good one!
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 3:38:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By bishopm14:

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Here's where I disagree. I think it's a 500yd gun, as that's about where the more erratic muzzle velocity (due to shorter barrel and incomplete burn) starts to catch up with you. If you can connect with the target, the round will do its job.




Ok, here's where the thread took the wrong turn. This started as a hunting application, and not a "shooting the enemy" situation. No way, no how does any sixteen inch barrelled .308/7.62 rifle got any business being used on unwounded game at 500 yards.Any animal you hunt is worthy of more respect than using a gun at twice the rifle's realistic effective range on game. In battle, wounding the enemy is fine, wounding critters ain't cool. Anyone taking a 500 yard shot on a deer with a SOCOM (or most other rifles for that matter) needs to be bitchslapped.



Couldn't agree more. It's rather un nerving how the ethics of hunting have eroded. I don't think that is the case here though, just a misappropriated rifle. More lack of knowledge than anything I would surmise. I wouldn't take a 500 yd shot at a deer or a bear. I have killed coyotes at about 200 max. Unless I can drop it, I ain't gonna shoot. This is why I don't bowhunt, the odds of killing a deer with an arrow cleanly (for me anyway) are slim to none. It's most likely the arrow would end up in a leg. I'd throw a chinese star at a terrorist but i'd never shoot at a a four legged critter unless I was relatively sure I can cleanly kill it.

I agree that a SOCOM has no place at deer camp. It has no place in combat either. It's a plinker that makes lots of noise and flash.



I couldn't disagree more with just about everything you've said. How do you get to be so full of yourself? Whatever YOU hunt with or go to combat with is THE only choice. Everything else is a plinker. You are keyboard commandoing all the reasons why you shouldn't shoot a deer with a socom while there are people out there doing a fine job of it. Experience is never at the mercy of theorys. That's all you got is theory's. Good for you if you've shot deer with your model 70. I'm glad you can shoot deer "all day long" with your .30-30 at 200 yards. But the socom sucks? You have reached the height of being a hypocryt and you don't even see it. But for you it is status quo.

And by the way. Guys are getting confirmed combat kills with 5.56 out to further ranges than 400 yards. Sorry to confuse you with the facts.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:20:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:

I will almost promise you you will drop nothing at 500 yds with a SOCOM. Sorry, but taking that shot is unethical in my humble opinion.



Unethical for you, not for others. I'm sorry that your effective range seems to be inside 200yds with your model 70, but don't try and guilt trip others that can shoot better into second guessing a longer shot just because you seem to think it is unethical. The Socom seemed to drop the doe just fine at that range.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:35:06 PM EDT
It does no sound to me that anyone is going away from this post broken hearted. Great feedback some agree some disagree. We all love guns.

I am a little confused? is the los from the traditional m1a standard to the scout or socom that much in terms of velocity or accuracy???

Thanks
John Wayne
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:22:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By bishopm14:

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Here's where I disagree. I think it's a 500yd gun, as that's about where the more erratic muzzle velocity (due to shorter barrel and incomplete burn) starts to catch up with you. If you can connect with the target, the round will do its job.




Ok, here's where the thread took the wrong turn. This started as a hunting application, and not a "shooting the enemy" situation. No way, no how does any sixteen inch barrelled .308/7.62 rifle got any business being used on unwounded game at 500 yards.Any animal you hunt is worthy of more respect than using a gun at twice the rifle's realistic effective range on game. In battle, wounding the enemy is fine, wounding critters ain't cool. Anyone taking a 500 yard shot on a deer with a SOCOM (or most other rifles for that matter) needs to be bitchslapped.



Couldn't agree more. It's rather un nerving how the ethics of hunting have eroded. I don't think that is the case here though, just a misappropriated rifle. More lack of knowledge than anything I would surmise. I wouldn't take a 500 yd shot at a deer or a bear. I have killed coyotes at about 200 max. Unless I can drop it, I ain't gonna shoot. This is why I don't bowhunt, the odds of killing a deer with an arrow cleanly (for me anyway) are slim to none. It's most likely the arrow would end up in a leg. I'd throw a chinese star at a terrorist but i'd never shoot at a a four legged critter unless I was relatively sure I can cleanly kill it.

I agree that a SOCOM has no place at deer camp. It has no place in combat either. It's a plinker that makes lots of noise and flash.



I couldn't disagree more with just about everything you've said. How do you get to be so full of yourself? Whatever YOU hunt with or go to combat with is THE only choice. Everything else is a plinker. You are keyboard commandoing all the reasons why you shouldn't shoot a deer with a socom while there are people out there doing a fine job of it. Experience is never at the mercy of theorys. That's all you got is theory's. Good for you if you've shot deer with your model 70. I'm glad you can shoot deer "all day long" with your .30-30 at 200 yards. But the socom sucks? You have reached the height of being a hypocryt and you don't even see it. But for you it is status quo.

And by the way. Guys are getting confirmed combat kills with 5.56 out to further ranges than 400 yards. Sorry to confuse you with the facts.



Who is getting confirmed kills at 400 yds with 5.56? Never said what I hunt with is the only choice, Never said the SOCOM sucks but it is not a suitable combat rifle nor a suitable deer rifle.

Do you realize what bullet drop is with 5.56 at 400 yds? The SOCOM is a plinker. I am not full of myself but an average rifleman should be able to drop a deer at 200 yds with a .30-.30
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 6:26:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LgAnimalVet:

Originally Posted By patriot73:

I will almost promise you you will drop nothing at 500 yds with a SOCOM. Sorry, but taking that shot is unethical in my humble opinion.



Unethical for you, not for others. I'm sorry that your effective range seems to be inside 200yds with your model 70, but don't try and guilt trip others that can shoot better into second guessing a longer shot just because you seem to think it is unethical. The Socom seemed to drop the doe just fine at that range.




Your buddy missed a shot with '06 at 100 yds and you guys are better shooters? When you are in town we can turn the baseball caps backwards and hit the benches, we'll see who can shoot. You bring your SOCOM and I'll bring my Model 70. We'll see what happens.

This website is becoming to the point where if you say anything contrary to what the flavor of the month is, you are berated. Not trying to guilt trip you, but if you are comfortable with taking ahots at deer at 500 yds with a 16" .30 caliber weapon, feel free. It's your karma. I'm not sure you if you really realize how far that actually is.

Enjoy your rifle, that's what it's for, fun. Merry Christmas my friend.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:29:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By patriot73:

Originally Posted By LgAnimalVet:

Originally Posted By patriot73:

I will almost promise you you will drop nothing at 500 yds with a SOCOM. Sorry, but taking that shot is unethical in my humble opinion.



Unethical for you, not for others. I'm sorry that your effective range seems to be inside 200yds with your model 70, but don't try and guilt trip others that can shoot better into second guessing a longer shot just because you seem to think it is unethical. The Socom seemed to drop the doe just fine at that range.




Your buddy missed a shot with '06 at 100 yds and you guys are better shooters? When you are in town we can turn the baseball caps backwards and hit the benches, we'll see who can shoot. You bring your SOCOM and I'll bring my Model 70. We'll see what happens.

This website is becoming to the point where if you say anything contrary to what the flavor of the month is, you are berated. Not trying to guilt trip you, but if you are comfortable with taking ahots at deer at 500 yds with a 16" .30 caliber weapon, feel free. It's your karma. I'm not sure you if you really realize how far that actually is.

Enjoy your rifle, that's what it's for, fun. Merry Christmas my friend.



First off, no one ever said they shot any animal or shot at any animal at 500 yards with the socom. The original poster didn't even specify. He just said a "ways off". Second off, you can disagree but we're tired of your lame reasons for you claiming it is a plinker and not a hunting / combat arm. You are entitled to your opinion but it gets old when you shit on everybodies thread. It's the same thing as when you were trying to tell us all that an M14 is not a "sniper" rifle. It seems to be a common practice with you. They do have a word for it here. Starts with a T. Thirdly the drop of a 5.56 is pretty close to a .308 at 400 yards. May be even less, depending on which loading you're talking about. So I guess that makes the .308 a bad sniper round. Yeah. And fourthly our US American GI's are getting confirmed kills out to longer distances than 400 with 5.56. Fifthly, nobody claimed to be a better shooter than you. I'll fill you in on something. There is a God and you aint it.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:18:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 8:21:18 AM EDT by Red_Label]
I'm startin' to wonder if I stumbled into GD by mistake...


For what little my opinion is worth, 1) .308 cal is definitely DEADLY at 500 yards regardless of length of barrel, and 2) unless you're shooting skills with short barrels are in the league of Elmer Keith, then very few people should ethically be using their SOCOM to hunt big game with at anything past 300 yards. Battle is a different story, but I'm definitely in the camp that you use the right tool for the job at hand. One of the main reasons that I passed over the SOCOM and Scout rifles for the Standard is that I wanted a rifle more suited to long-distance shots. The full 22" barrel is the obvious choice for that. So I traded manueverability in short-range CQB situations for the ability to get a flatter trajectory and a harder hit downrange. There is no doubt that the extra 4-6" in barrel length is not a HUGE difference, but it does make A difference nonetheless. So if I was going to hunt with my M1A (and I do plan to do that), then I'd pass on any shot with a carbine past 200-300 yards. And for me at this time, 400-500 yards would be my absolute max for the 22" barrel. Some here probably have more business shooting their SOCOM at 500 yards than others their full-size at 300. But for the average shooter (of which I am), longer is better. I'm someone that personally sees no need at all for the SOCOM. The carbine AR is superior as a CQB weapon against humans in nearly every way. And if you absolutely NEED .308 for very close ranges, then I personally feel that the HK91 or a carbine FAL would be a much better choice. But then again, guns are like art, beauty, and all the rest of creation... different strokes for different folks. If you shoot at deer at 500 yards with a SOCOM and you drop them dead every time with the first shot, who am I to question you or criticize? If on the other hand, you shoot at them at that distance and then have to chase them down or lose them because you only wounded them, then my opinion is you're a dufus who hasn't the common sense to be hunting or shooting in the first place. (The preceeding was hypothetical and not directed at any post in this thread.)

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:00:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 10:06:26 AM EDT by 24ksports]
I was curious statement re a Socom will not hit anything at 500 yards. I would not want anyone armed with a SOCOM shooting at me at 500 yards distance. The SOCOM was developed as a specific use CQB rifle with long range capabilities. All I know is my 18" PTR will bang the crap out of a 500 yard gong. IMO I think the SOCOM makes alot of sense for use as a hunting carbine in LA and appreciate the post letting us know it worked on deer. From my experience a deer or any animal is very hard to bring down once they get up and moving. You have to take the shots when you can to avoid allowing them to escape and die.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:27:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Label:
I'm startin' to wonder if I stumbled into GD by mistake...


For what little my opinion is worth, 1) .308 cal is definitely DEADLY at 500 yards regardless of length of barrel, and 2) unless you're shooting skills with short barrels are in the league of Elmer Keith, then very few people should ethically be using their SOCOM to hunt big game with at anything past 300 yards. Battle is a different story, but I'm definitely in the camp that you use the right tool for the job at hand. One of the main reasons that I passed over the SOCOM and Scout rifles for the Standard is that I wanted a rifle more suited to long-distance shots. The full 22" barrel is the obvious choice for that. So I traded manueverability in short-range CQB situations for the ability to get a flatter trajectory and a harder hit downrange. There is no doubt that the extra 4-6" in barrel length is not a HUGE difference, but it does make A difference nonetheless. So if I was going to hunt with my M1A (and I do plan to do that), then I'd pass on any shot with a carbine past 200-300 yards. And for me at this time, 400-500 yards would be my absolute max for the 22" barrel. Some here probably have more business shooting their SOCOM at 500 yards than others their full-size at 300. But for the average shooter (of which I am), longer is better. I'm someone that personally sees no need at all for the SOCOM. The carbine AR is superior as a CQB weapon against humans in nearly every way. And if you absolutely NEED .308 for very close ranges, then I personally feel that the HK91 or a carbine FAL would be a much better choice. But then again, guns are like art, beauty, and all the rest of creation... different strokes for different folks. If you shoot at deer at 500 yards with a SOCOM and you drop them dead every time with the first shot, who am I to question you or criticize? If on the other hand, you shoot at them at that distance and then have to chase them down or lose them because you only wounded them, then my opinion is you're a dufus who hasn't the common sense to be hunting or shooting in the first place. (The preceeding was hypothetical and not directed at any post in this thread.)




So every time you shot a Deer it dropped right away? For me some ran some didn't. We do our best to put the bullet right the first time but c'mon. No one is perfect. We hunt in thick stuff and shoot at running deer. If you waited for em to stand still everytime, I think we'd be waiting a long time. Although, it's nice when it happens.

I like ar's very much, but a .30 has better barrier punch in combat situations. 1 reason for the socom over an ar.

What irks me is someone so ignorant to say that a .30-30 is a deer gun but a socom isn't. Thats not real smart. You notice he didn't challenge anyone with his .30-30 in a shooting match. He challenged with his model 70. Well, duh. I hope it's pretty accurate. I would take model 70 over a socom for long distance shooting match, but we're not really talking about that. The thread is about shooting deer. At a distance. What distance that is, we don't know. He didn't state it. But it worked.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:00:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Label:
I'm startin' to wonder if I stumbled into GD by mistake...


For what little my opinion is worth, 1) .308 cal is definitely DEADLY at 500 yards regardless of length of barrel, and 2) unless you're shooting skills with short barrels are in the league of Elmer Keith, then very few people should ethically be using their SOCOM to hunt big game with at anything past 300 yards. Battle is a different story, but I'm definitely in the camp that you use the right tool for the job at hand. One of the main reasons that I passed over the SOCOM and Scout rifles for the Standard is that I wanted a rifle more suited to long-distance shots. The full 22" barrel is the obvious choice for that. So I traded manueverability in short-range CQB situations for the ability to get a flatter trajectory and a harder hit downrange. There is no doubt that the extra 4-6" in barrel length is not a HUGE difference, but it does make A difference nonetheless. So if I was going to hunt with my M1A (and I do plan to do that), then I'd pass on any shot with a carbine past 200-300 yards. And for me at this time, 400-500 yards would be my absolute max for the 22" barrel. Some here probably have more business shooting their SOCOM at 500 yards than others their full-size at 300. But for the average shooter (of which I am), longer is better. I'm someone that personally sees no need at all for the SOCOM. The carbine AR is superior as a CQB weapon against humans in nearly every way. And if you absolutely NEED .308 for very close ranges, then I personally feel that the HK91 or a carbine FAL would be a much better choice. But then again, guns are like art, beauty, and all the rest of creation... different strokes for different folks. If you shoot at deer at 500 yards with a SOCOM and you drop them dead every time with the first shot, who am I to question you or criticize? If on the other hand, you shoot at them at that distance and then have to chase them down or lose them because you only wounded them, then my opinion is you're a dufus who hasn't the common sense to be hunting or shooting in the first place. (The preceeding was hypothetical and not directed at any post in this thread.)





Exactly.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:13:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:
I'm startin' to wonder if I stumbled into GD by mistake...


For what little my opinion is worth, 1) .308 cal is definitely DEADLY at 500 yards regardless of length of barrel, and 2) unless you're shooting skills with short barrels are in the league of Elmer Keith, then very few people should ethically be using their SOCOM to hunt big game with at anything past 300 yards. Battle is a different story, but I'm definitely in the camp that you use the right tool for the job at hand. One of the main reasons that I passed over the SOCOM and Scout rifles for the Standard is that I wanted a rifle more suited to long-distance shots. The full 22" barrel is the obvious choice for that. So I traded manueverability in short-range CQB situations for the ability to get a flatter trajectory and a harder hit downrange. There is no doubt that the extra 4-6" in barrel length is not a HUGE difference, but it does make A difference nonetheless. So if I was going to hunt with my M1A (and I do plan to do that), then I'd pass on any shot with a carbine past 200-300 yards. And for me at this time, 400-500 yards would be my absolute max for the 22" barrel. Some here probably have more business shooting their SOCOM at 500 yards than others their full-size at 300. But for the average shooter (of which I am), longer is better. I'm someone that personally sees no need at all for the SOCOM. The carbine AR is superior as a CQB weapon against humans in nearly every way. And if you absolutely NEED .308 for very close ranges, then I personally feel that the HK91 or a carbine FAL would be a much better choice. But then again, guns are like art, beauty, and all the rest of creation... different strokes for different folks. If you shoot at deer at 500 yards with a SOCOM and you drop them dead every time with the first shot, who am I to question you or criticize? If on the other hand, you shoot at them at that distance and then have to chase them down or lose them because you only wounded them, then my opinion is you're a dufus who hasn't the common sense to be hunting or shooting in the first place. (The preceeding was hypothetical and not directed at any post in this thread.)




So every time you shot a Deer it dropped right away? For me some ran some didn't. We do our best to put the bullet right the first time but c'mon. No one is perfect. We hunt in thick stuff and shoot at running deer. If you waited for em to stand still everytime, I think we'd be waiting a long time. Although, it's nice when it happens.

I like ar's very much, but a .30 has better barrier punch in combat situations. 1 reason for the socom over an ar.

What irks me is someone so ignorant to say that a .30-30 is a deer gun but a socom isn't. Thats not real smart. You notice he didn't challenge anyone with his .30-30 in a shooting match. He challenged with his model 70. Well, duh. I hope it's pretty accurate. I would take model 70 over a socom for long distance shooting match, but we're not really talking about that. The thread is about shooting deer. At a distance. What distance that is, we don't know. He didn't state it. But it worked.



I wouldn't challenge anyone to a shooting match with a .30-.30 lever gun because I understand the limitations of my rifles. You are going to be hard pressed to find people with real world shooting experience that are going to find a practical use for the SOCOM. I am sorry if this makes you mad, but I stand by this statement that the rifle is a plinker. Please, if you own one, by all means, enjoy it. But don't try and convince others of it's usefellness, that's Springfield Armory's job, and I , in my himble opinion perceive the modern SA, Inc as more of a marketing company than a gun manufacturer. Again, I own an M1A built on a Springfield Armory receriver. Through a scope I may take a shot at a Deer at 4-500 yds if conditions were absolutely perfect and I could place the shot.

Even when the M14 was developed, and the cartridge, critical combat engagement was considered within 300 yds. You just don't shoot at anything farther than that from you as you will most likely end up giving away where you are and getting killed. That's what air support is for. I don't want a battle with anyone, but what good is telling each other BS? I have been shooting M14 type rifles for a long time and Model 70's. I have been hunting since I was a kid. 20 years ago if you showed up with something like a SOCOM to deer camp, you'd be ridiculed. You need to do some ballistic research, "punch" is not what determines how lethal a combat round is. The 5.56mm round is much more lethal, accurate and effective than 7.62 at close ranges. This is fact. The idea that .30 is more lethal is a myth. Laugh if you will, but you need to do some research. The 5.56 round drops too much and loses it's ability to fragment and yaw the further it goes. A clean kill at 4-500 yds with 5.56 is a huge stretch. I don't think I'm God my friend, but I do know what I'm talking about. An AR is indeed a superior CQB weapon the the SOCOM. You'd go blind in a darl hallway with a SOCOM before you'd ever get a follow up shot.

The M14 is a stellar battle rifle and has served in many functions, I love it. Have a Merry Christmas my friend, I extend the olive branch....after all it is Christmas. Maybe you are just mad at me cuz' the Bears handed the Packers their asses on a platter couple weeks back? LOL. Merry Christmas my brother to the north
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 12:07:07 PM EDT
Well thank you for the goodwill. I appreciate it. I don't follow the packers, I think it's hilarious. Some people are like rabid dogs when it comes to pro football. I just know they're not good. Hey, the bears need to win once in awhile too.

Look, I've done my research. I will agree that a 5.56 is a very lethal round for cqb. But if you use the right bullet, the .308 is very, very good. The recommendation for lethal stoppers in .308 by very knowledgeable people are the 155 amax and noslers 150 grain ballistic tip. Loaded by Federal and some others. It has a bigger wound profile and is better in almost any way than any of the 5.56 loadings. A .308 will go through cover better at CQB distances like glass, wallboard, wood, etc. Period. End of story. We can disagree about it but I've done my research. I'm not sure where you're doing yours.

Thirdly, I agree that 400 yards or further is stretching it for fragmentation of a 5.56 round. I understand this. Yet the fact remains that there are more snipers in the GWOT using 5.56 than probably ever before. And they are getting confirmed kills out to those ranges or better. Also, M98CODERED, a member here has gotten confirmed Deer kills with his .223 at 400 yards using the 68 grain BTHP. You can deny it. Or hide your head in the sand but the trajectory is not unlike a .308. And you know of course they use that for a sniping round to distances out to 1,000 yards or more. The highpower shooters use .223 with heavy bullets to 1,000. Somehow in your studies, you've missed these facts. I realize it probably has more wind drift due to lighter bullet, but nevertheless, it's being done.

As far as the socom goes. So what if you get ridiculed by others in the deer camp. What proves it is if it'll kill a deer. If you're saying that a .30-30 can somehow magically kill a deer better than a socom, which seems to be your stance, that's just plain silly.

I'm sorry I seem mad but you tend to push the right buttons. I can't stand it when people put down others choices in firearms unless they have a real good reason. Which I've seen none of coming from you or any of the other anit socomers.

Like I said though, thanks for the good will.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:07:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:
Well thank you for the goodwill. I appreciate it. I don't follow the packers, I think it's hilarious. Some people are like rabid dogs when it comes to pro football. I just know they're not good. Hey, the bears need to win once in awhile too.

Look, I've done my research. I will agree that a 5.56 is a very lethal round for cqb. But if you use the right bullet, the .308 is very, very good. The recommendation for lethal stoppers in .308 by very knowledgeable people are the 155 amax and noslers 150 grain ballistic tip. Loaded by Federal and some others. It has a bigger wound profile and is better in almost any way than any of the 5.56 loadings. A .308 will go through cover better at CQB distances like glass, wallboard, wood, etc. Period. End of story. We can disagree about it but I've done my research. I'm not sure where you're doing yours.

Thirdly, I agree that 400 yards or further is stretching it for fragmentation of a 5.56 round. I understand this. Yet the fact remains that there are more snipers in the GWOT using 5.56 than probably ever before. And they are getting confirmed kills out to those ranges or better. Also, M98CODERED, a member here has gotten confirmed Deer kills with his .223 at 400 yards using the 68 grain BTHP. You can deny it. Or hide your head in the sand but the trajectory is not unlike a .308. And you know of course they use that for a sniping round to distances out to 1,000 yards or more. The highpower shooters use .223 with heavy bullets to 1,000. Somehow in your studies, you've missed these facts. I realize it probably has more wind drift due to lighter bullet, but nevertheless, it's being done.

As far as the socom goes. So what if you get ridiculed by others in the deer camp. What proves it is if it'll kill a deer. If you're saying that a .30-30 can somehow magically kill a deer better than a socom, which seems to be your stance, that's just plain silly.

I'm sorry I seem mad but you tend to push the right buttons. I can't stand it when people put down others choices in firearms unless they have a real good reason. Which I've seen none of coming from you or any of the other anit socomers.

Like I said though, thanks for the good will.



Well there ya go, we agree on something! Bears and Packers Fans are whackos!!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:21:22 PM EDT
[stoking the fire back up] So if the SOCOM doesn't belong in a deer camp, does my Scout? 'Cause I think my Scout is a kick ass deer rifle. I use my recently purchased Scout clone for in the woods whitetail hunting, 200 yards and less.

I think it's a great all around gun, capable of dropping whitetails or bad guys behind concealment.

So could losing 2" of barrel really neuter such a great gun?

The only reason I didn't go with the Scout is because of the muzzle brake / inability to screw on a suppressor issue.

.308 and 30-06 have basically the same ballistics until you get to 26" barrels.

I suspect a lot of people are purchasing the SOCOM because of the cool name and ad, but I don't think that the gun is a bad purchase for an all around rifle. [/stoking the fire back up]
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:54:41 PM EDT
Maybe people should just stick to a Remington 700 in .30-06 with a 3x9 Leupold for deer...

I don't hunt but if I did I certainly would not use my socom. Even if it was legal in PA.

Now my Garand, OTOH...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:56:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 6:57:44 PM EDT by gatorshooter1]
Intresting opinions!, However If I may comment, The original post stated that he was trying to retrieve a already hit animal ( justifing the longer shot to down the animal). He had His rifle available and put multiple rounds on intended target at a longer than HIS normal hunting distance using a large dotted optic. Seems to me he did an excellent job of judging the distance, putting the dot where it needed to be and was able to bag the animal. not to have it run off wounded and die suffering. I consider myself more of a rifle shooter than most of my "hunting" buddies. If I were there I'd pat him on the back and say he did a fine job with his rifle. Had I been standing in his shoes with a bead sighted muzzle loader I'd tried my best to put the animal down also.

I agree that the socom/large red dot setup would not be my prefered choice for 200+ initial shot on game and may gather a few odd looks at the deer camp from people who don't like thinking outside of their box. but the 308 is a capable round in the short barrel, out to any ethical hunting ranges on thin skinned deer. (fair chase and all that considered)
we all have seen a lot of effective short barreled bolt action 308 and 7mm08 "mountain rifles built just for hunting. The optic choice is what i consider to be the limiting factor (not the rifle) and what made those shots harder to achieve and impressive.

let us also not forget our heritage. Having a flat and fast trajetory is nice-- makes longer shots easier to achieve. However, If a "Rifleman" knows his weapon well He can be very effective at the longer ranges. Just step a few years back in history and see what the 45-70 and the like was capable of. The socom/scout/ fullsize/AR15 debate may rage on but it is like horse races everyone just likes something different. all are very good rifles and do the things they were intended for --well. I wish I had one or more of each!

Merry Christmas.GatorShooter.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:21:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gatorshooter1:
Merry Christmas.
GatorShooter.




Now you've gone and offended someone out there I'm sure with your tidings of comfort and joy.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:47:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 7:49:48 AM EDT by Joker18]
LOL, tidings of comfort and joy. I think the debate over the Socom will eventually die out. I'm positive there were people who expressed the opinion of "What's the point" when the M1A Scout/Squad rifle was introduced. I like mine (Socom). It is handy in a climbing tree stand (its how we hunt here in nor'eastern NC) and next time I shoot it I'm taking my chronograph and chrono'ing some of my fav hunting bullets. Ballistics are a function of velocity and range (and bullet coefficients). It's simply a matter of physics. About the 5.56mm. Winchester makes a Premium 64 grain Power Point Plus bullet in .223 that is a great stock bullet that's factory rated CX2 (for medium thin skinned game). I shot a buck with my Bushy at ~ 25-30 yards when I grunted and stopped him from chasing 3 does. He dropped and never twitched. The bullet went in the neck (my POA) travelled diagonally down the neck and I found it just under the skin behind the front leg. The lead core separated from the jacket but had flattened out and was right in front of the jacket. The jacket mushroomed perfectly. The lead core and the jacket together weighed 48 grains on my powder scale which translates to 75% weight retention. Not bad for a .22. I realize that this is the M1A thread, but I felt it was relevant in light of the informative post from Patriot73.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 8:29:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gatorshooter1:


I agree that the socom/large red dot setup would not be my prefered choice for 200+ initial shot on game and may gather a few odd looks at the deer camp from people who don't like thinking outside of their box.

... let us also not forget our heritage. Having a flat and fast trajetory is nice-- makes longer shots easier to achieve. However, If a "Rifleman" knows his weapon well He can be very effective at the longer ranges.



I agree.

IYHO, would a low mounted 2.5x28mm Scout rifle scope be a good choice?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:37:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
Maybe people should just stick to a Remington 700 in .30-06 with a 3x9 Leupold for deer...

I don't hunt but if I did I certainly would not use my socom. Even if it was legal in PA.

Now my Garand, OTOH...



I sure hope you just forgot the "rolling eyes" animation, otherwise I might get cyber-lynched for hunting deer with my 10mm 1911.

Why isn't hunting with a SOCOM legal in PA? High cap mags? Too short barrel?

I think maybe some people are not considering the various different types of landscapes capable of harboring deer. A lot of people down here hunt in woods where most shots are under 75 yards.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:03:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By recoiljunky:
Originally Posted By Thekatar:
I sure hope you just forgot the "rolling eyes" animation, otherwise I might get cyber-lynched for hunting deer with my 10mm 1911.
[snip]
I think maybe some people are not considering the various different types of landscapes capable of harboring deer. A lot of people down here hunt in woods where most shots are under 75 yards.



I'm sure he did just forget to put the rolleyes on there. While I am one of those whose expressed "what's the point?" in terms of the functionality of the SOCOM/Scout models, I do also believe in the "to each his or her own" philosophy. If it floats your boat and is not a bad thing for society, then knock yourself out. Even in regards to hunting. If you can take deer down at upto 200 yards or so with your SOCOM (or lever-gun .30-30 for that matter), then more power to ya. I'm not too wild about the average joe taking game beyond that range unless they are really GOOD. Because I just like one-shot kills. Sometimes, other factors affect one-shot kills and that will happen from time to time. I can deal with that. But if there are those out there who need follow-up shots the majority of the time to kill game, then they're doing something wrong and they need to re-examine their skills/tactics and do what it takes to fix that. This is one reason that I won't hunt with my AR. I'm not sure of my ability to get the job done clean and quick with .223 on big game. It's .30 cal for me on big game.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 12:12:55 PM EDT
It is illegal to hunt deer with a semi-auto in PA.

Pretty much everybody that I know uses a similar set up to what I described. I always get to see guys at the range with their deer rifles shooting at a taped-up paper plate at 25 yards with a 9 power scope.

Like I said, I don't hunt so I shoot with irons at 100 yards...
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