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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/6/2002 12:01:01 PM EST
Hey all, everyone talks mostly about the 308 for long range(sniper)work.
Just wondering what calibers would be considered acceptable if one does not own a 308 or has the desire to?
What would be the advantage to a 308 over other calibers?
I have a 22-250 and 6.5x55 Swede that are both scoped and very accurate.
I know ammo is not very available for the Swede, but I reload anyway and think it could work since the Swedes thought it alright.
What say ye all?



Lee


Link Posted: 7/6/2002 12:13:39 PM EST
I have heard many times that for....long range shooting that at least a .30 caliber round should be used. You need a little more bullet mass to really stike the longer ranges..and still be deadly. Truth is for shorter ranges, say 250 or 300 and under, you could use a lighter round, but I would want the versatility of a larger round. .308 Win is not the only option though, there several other .30cal rounds that would be acceptable. The springfield '03 was used in a sniper role and took the 30-30 (though I think there are much better cartridges today). I don't see any reason why the .300WM or .300WSM couldn't be used, just to name a few.

But hopefully Tatjana will reply to this, she's the real expert, I'm telling you what I learned.

Mike


Link Posted: 7/6/2002 12:40:36 PM EST
Long range, 500+yrds, any .30 mag.

Under 500, 30-06, 308, 7mm mag, 280, 270, 6mm.

Under 300, 25-06, 243, 220 swift, 22-250, 223.
These are the most readily available rounds that have a bullet available with a good B/C.
I have shot all of these thru a Thompson contender/Encore. If you reload, there are many custom rounds out there.
A good 300wm and a .308 or .223 will take care of any "problems" out to 1000 yrds.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 5:05:03 AM EST
Depends on why one has no desire to own a .308 or similar. If the recoil is a problem, then you are really out of luck for practical uses: one can't negate physics, at least in this universe.

I agree with the earlier recommendations. If you are only punching paper, then a good .223 will do, if it isn't too windy. Others will be affected, too, but not as much.

For "practical" use, the .223 is good out to 300 or 400 yards because that's about as far out as it will have enough velocity to shatter, the key to it's deadliness. Beyond that, you need the heavy impact from momentum, meaning a larger, such as .30 cal bullet. A .22 lr can hit a target, but won't stop it at that range without a lucky shot to a CNS point. For "real" use, you need the large caliber at longer ranges. The above comment is the way I go, too: .300 wm and .223. Pick the tool for the job.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 7:01:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By EKrutz64:

Under 500, 30-06, 308, 7mm mag, 280, 270, 6mm.




I own a Remington 6mm. Didn't know it was good that far out.

Maybe I'll have to take her out of her case tomorrow.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 8:41:43 AM EST
Now THIS is how you are supposed to talk ballistics:


Quoted from Rjroberts:
.223 is good out to 300 or 400 yards because that's about as far out as it will have enough velocity to shatter, the key to it's deadliness.



Notice the scientific use of the word "deadliness".

Larryg or Tatjana can step in here...

Sorry, Rjroberts! I just thought your post was really funny!
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 8:53:59 AM EST
Note the use of the word "practical."
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 8:54:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By rjroberts:
For "practical" use, the .223 is good out to 300 or 400 yards because that's about as far out as it will have enough velocity to shatter, the key to it's deadliness.



You are correct that the key to the 5.56's effectiveness is it's ability to fragment, but you are mistaken on it's useful range.

Out of a 20" barrel, the M193 is pretty much useless (fragmentation-wise) by the time it reaches 200m. The M855 out of the same barrel loses it's ability to fragment by 150m or so. As barrel length decreases, so does effective range. For example, out of a 14.5" barrel, the M855 is only effective out to 50m or so.

At any ranges beyond that, you'll pretty much be getting a .22 caliber wound, which is definitely not what's desireable out of the 5.56. That's why I would use my HK91 for anything at 200m and beyond. The 7.62NATO doesn't fragment like a 5.56, but I'd rather have a .30 cal hole than a .22 cal hole.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 2:56:33 PM EST
'Bender, the 6.5x55 Swede is considered a fine 600 to 1,000 yard rifle. Since you already reload, you should be successful with either the Sierra 140 or 142 grain Match King bullets.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:06:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By rjroberts:
For "practical" use, the .223 is good out to 300 or 400 yards because that's about as far out as it will have enough velocity to shatter, the key to it's deadliness.



You are correct that the key to the 5.56's effectiveness is it's ability to fragment, but you are mistaken on it's useful range.

Out of a 20" barrel, the M193 is pretty much useless (fragmentation-wise) by the time it reaches 200m. The M855 out of the same barrel loses it's ability to fragment by 150m or so. As barrel length decreases, so does effective range. For example, out of a 14.5" barrel, the M855 is only effective out to 50m or so.

At any ranges beyond that, you'll pretty much be getting a .22 caliber wound, which is definitely not what's desireable out of the 5.56. That's why I would use my HK91 for anything at 200m and beyond. The 7.62NATO doesn't fragment like a 5.56, but I'd rather have a .30 cal hole than a .22 cal hole.



I think it might be bit longer than that, but I'd not dispute your point. Actually, the point is the same, up to some intermediate range, the round is useful (as long as it fragments), and after that it's a .22. Beyond that, I'd want to use the .300mag. Actually, given my true laziness, my guideline is my scope. The ELCAN, sighted to instructions, is flat within a few inches out to 300 yards. Beyond that (the torso in between the two ranging marks), I want something else. Got to get a better scope for my bolt gun, though. It's a Win 70 Classic Sharpshooter.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:15:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By rjroberts:
I think it might be bit longer than that, but I'd not dispute your point.... snip...



No trust me... he knows..... or at least his chronograph does.


AR15 Ammo FAQ

As for me. Remington 700VS-LH in .308 has been a great gun for me out to 800meters. I don't know about its wounding potential at that range (i'd probably prefer a .300WM if someone made a lefty bolt gun in it) but I am confident of my ability to get center of mass hits at 800 yards with that rifle.

I think the predominant reason for .308 is the same as the predominant reason for .223.... it's the military caliber and therefor a popular caliber for everyone else and surplus ammo is cheap. In terms of actual ballistics I'm sure there are equally good/better cartridges out there or that can be hand loaded. Most important rule: Hit your target, with anything, which is better than missing. So use what you know you can shoot well with.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:20:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Spade:
I own a Remington 6mm. Didn't know it was good that far out.

Maybe I'll have to take her out of her case tomorrow.



From what I have read on some of the long range shooting sites the 6BR which is a much smaller case than the 6MM Rem is dominating 1000 yard bench rest and doing very well in F class shoots.

The 6MM cartridges have quite a bit to offer.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 4:15:02 PM EST
The popularity of .308 in the military due to availability and existing supply is a myth. The ammo supplied to snipers is a different load than what the average rifleman or machine gunner is issued. While the 147 grain FMJ shoots just as fine in a sniper's rifle, they are supplied superior match ammo in the 165-173 grain range. All their adjustments are based on the heavier bullet, and ammunition issued is from the same lot for the sake of accuracy and consistency. No need to re-zero every time you open a box in the field.

Because the sniping system is optimized for a different load and supplied through different channels, there isn't any obvious benefit to sticking with .308. Supplying 300 mag or any other cartridge would be just as easy.

The choice to use .308 was probably the result of politics, regardless of the existing supply lines.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 6:25:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/8/2002 6:33:23 PM EST by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By DakotaKid:
The springfield '03 was used in a sniper role and took the 30-30

No sir, that would be .30-'06, which I think is the best all around long distance round, especially given all the variations you can get it in.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 7:07:02 PM EST
6.5x284 is gaining a following along with the 300WSM for 1k. 338 Lapau for out to 1700 or so then the 408 Chey-Tac and the 50 BMG for just this side of ICBM work.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 7:20:23 PM EST
The 6.5X55 Swede and the 6.5X284 "fag-mag"are great ballistically because of that looong 6.5 boolit. I'm amazed at the accuracy of my old Swede mauser with surplus ammo.

The .308 is great for all around shooting. One of the nice things is that it's had the crap developed out of it (which is a very good thing)so everyone knows what it can do.

I have PSS's in .223 and .308 and they'll do just about anything I'd want 'em to. For me as I don't reload (yet) the availability of ammo is a huge plus. I know I can go into just about any sporting goods store that carries guns and find somewhat decent (hopefully)ammo for either one. Factory offerings from Black-Hills are particularly outstanding.

Moondog, Uncle Sam does actually issue the 300win. (am I right Sinister?)

Later,
R
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 7:25:42 PM EST
30-06 is better than 308

and 300 win mag is even better than that!
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 7:31:24 PM EST
So how about the .338 Ultra Mag? I have been considering a rifle in that caliber. Do I need it? No. I just want it.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 9:06:40 AM EST
I know the seals, marines, and recently the army has been using both .308 and 300 mag, and 300 mag has the advantage of higher velocity and a flatter trajectory. I think the "higher ups" have had a moment of clarity.

When the .308 was first developed, it was very similar to the existing .30-06 in velocity, because of the use of newer powders. However, the modern .30-06 easily has a 100+fps advantage over the .308.

My one question, and maybe it can be answered by .300 owners: I knew .300 mag used to have throat erosion problems beginning in the 1000-1200 round range, because of the additional hot gases from the extra powder load. Has better metallurgy and cooler burning powders solved this problem?

I used to read of extreme long range performers like .30-378 having a barrel life expectancy in the 500 shot range. Reminds me of race car engines: lasts long enough for time trials and race day, then it's rebuild time!
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 9:14:30 AM EST
Haven't had any problems like that in mine. But the barrel in this thing is over an inch in diameter, probably doing a better job of absorbing and dissipating heat. Also, stainless. I don't know enough about metallurgy to say anything about alloys, etc.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 10:45:12 AM EST
When you say "shatter", I'm assuming you mean fragment.

I don't know of a .223 round that fragments, I know of a couple of 5.56 rounds that do!

If your looking for a long range rifle, I doubt the one your looking for will accept 5.56 NATO.

Once again, if your just punching paper, who cares about wound ballistics.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 11:51:15 AM EST
My 175 grain .308 rounds leave the muzzle at 2,654 fps and will reach a 1,000 yard target still traveling in excess of 1,200 fps, well into the supersonic zone. This makes them extremely stable and accurate. The 175 grain bullets have a superb B.C. and buck the wind quite nicely. They will hit the target at 1,000 yards with approximately the same muzzle energy as a .357 magnum at point blank range. The .30 magnums certainly have their place and offer some advantages. However, it seems to me that given the inherent advantages of the .308, such as short action, incredible accuracy, cheap surplus, massive assortment of components for reloaders and minimal recoil, it is tough to beat.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 11:55:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By EKrutz64:
Long range, 500+yrds, any .30 mag.

Under 500, 30-06, 308, 7mm mag, 280, 270, 6mm.

Under 300, 25-06, 243, 220 swift, 22-250, 223.
These are the most readily available rounds that have a bullet available with a good B/C.
I have shot all of these thru a Thompson contender/Encore. If you reload, there are many custom rounds out there.
A good 300wm and a .308 or .223 will take care of any "problems" out to 1000 yrds.



If your 308 stick is only good out to 500 yards than your not doing your part or you need a new stick. The leathality of the 308 cartridge is good out to 1000 yards,easily. Give the 175gr MKs a try.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 12:56:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Fox:
My 175 grain .308 rounds leave the muzzle at 2,654 fps and will reach a 1,000 yard target still traveling in excess of 1,200 fps, well into the supersonic zone. This makes them extremely stable and accurate. The 175 grain bullets have a superb B.C. and buck the wind quite nicely. They will hit the target at 1,000 yards with approximately the same muzzle energy as a .357 magnum at point blank range. The .30 magnums certainly have their place and offer some advantages. However, it seems to me that given the inherent advantages of the .308, such as short action, incredible accuracy, cheap surplus, massive assortment of components for reloaders and minimal recoil, it is tough to beat.



Here's your answer.

Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:19:08 PM EST
Schapman43, I do not say that the 308 is not good out to 1000, but it is not the best tool for the job. I have shot a 45/70 to 500yrds, it will get there, but its not the one I would grab.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 4:54:14 PM EST
I wansnt trying to insult you and it doesnt sound like you were insulted by my reply, which is a good thing :). I just dont see the need to use something that is bigger, heavier, and has more recoil when the 308 will do the job. I will be picking up a Sendero in 300 win mag at the end of the month, so I'm not against the big stuff. I just like the 308.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 5:03:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 5:03:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By nailbender:
Hey all, everyone talks mostly about the 308 for long range(sniper)work.
Just wondering what calibers would be considered acceptable if one does not own a 308 or has the desire to?
What would be the advantage to a 308 over other calibers?
I have a 22-250 and 6.5x55 Swede that are both scoped and very accurate.
I know ammo is not very available for the Swede, but I reload anyway and think it could work since the Swedes thought it alright.
What say ye all?



Lee





One advantage the 308 has over the 22-250 is energy. At 500 yards the 308 has 3 TIMES the energy of the 22-250. (308 has 1230ft-lbs vs the 22-250 has 480, reference is Federal Cartridges loaded with 55 and 165 Gr Sierra Game Kings)

FWIW 1230 Ft lbs is enough energy to lift a half ton weight a foot off the deck
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