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Posted: 9/10/2009 7:11:18 AM EDT
[#1]
Are you surprised? A bad ass can for a bad ass soilder.
 I love my 12th, I wouldn't trade it for any tuning fork.
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Posted: 9/10/2009 7:37:32 AM EDT
[#2]
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Are you surprised? A bad ass can for a bad ass soilder. I love my 12th, I wouldn't trade it for any tuning fork.1500 yards falling down a rocky mountain? Yeah I'm surprised. That's a lot of abuse. I'm surprised his Leupold wasn't smashed and his rifle didn't lose it's zero. Angels were on his shoulder, but his rifle was good kit too. |
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Posted: 9/10/2009 8:50:19 PM EDT
[#3]
It's a great read and Luttrell and the others who didn't make it are owed big time for their service.
But don't trust too much in the details of the book. It's a mass market book, rather than one undertaken for purely documentary purposes, and notice the ghost writer's name in smaller print on the cover. Book deals of this type usually give great latitude to the publisher in deviating from the actual events in favor of a more dramatic treatment. They purchased his story and his participation in the process and marketing of the book, they did not hire him for his, at the time, unproven writing skills. With an event as dynamic and taxing as this clearly was, it's doubtful Luttrell could have remembered it in such detail. Nor should anyone expect him to. Not saying it's inaccurate let alone dishonest or fraudulent, just that military historians will not be treating this book as a primary source for documenting this event. They'll be interviewing Luttrell outside of a commercial venture. |
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Posted: 9/11/2009 2:36:27 AM EDT
[#4]
As someone who has been in much lesser conflict and written a story recounting events, I don't put any stock in that.
The burden of accuracy I felt was severe. I never even published my book for fear bastardizing it to the point of being interesting would simply not accurately reflect the history of my guys. There was no way I would piss on the memory of anyone with a flawed account, and I'm sure he felt it far more strongly than me though his story, recounting majorly one isolated few days of time, makes it easier to tell without chopping up while still captivating readers. I would expect him to remember the events. In high adrenaline situations the brain seems to work better, memories are more vivid, and time often seems to slow down assisting the memory recall. It talks about how even two days later he's writing on his leg to remember details- details which with a high degree of accuracy enabled the rescuing unit to trace the battle and find the missing soldiers. He's a recon man- and a sniper- a person trained to remember in great detail in stressful situations. There's no doubt the book is highly accurate. The ghost writer may be able to inject little details around the greater story itself, but the outline of the story has got to be Luttrell's and is probably very accurate. |
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Posted: 9/11/2009 8:23:44 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
As someone who has been in much lesser conflict and written a story recounting events, I don't put any stock in that. The burden of accuracy I felt was severe. I never even published my book for fear bastardizing it to the point of being interesting would simply not accurately reflect the history of my guys. There was no way I would piss on the memory of anyone with a flawed account, and I'm sure he felt it far more strongly than me though his story, recounting majorly one isolated few days of time, makes it easier to tell without chopping up while still captivating readers. I would expect him to remember the events. In high adrenaline situations the brain seems to work better, memories are more vivid, and time often seems to slow down assisting the memory recall. It talks about how even two days later he's writing on his leg to remember details- details which with a high degree of accuracy enabled the rescuing unit to trace the battle and find the missing soldiers. He's a recon man- and a sniper- a person trained to remember in great detail in stressful situations. There's no doubt the book is highly accurate. The ghost writer may be able to inject little details around the greater story itself, but the outline of the story has got to be Luttrell's and is probably very accurate. I hear you. The only difference I would suggest is that you wrote your own book and, thus, maintained control of those decisions. Luttrell sold the story rights and his participation, not the book itself, so he really never had legal ownership of the work to control such things. Even if he remembered events with crystal clarity, if the publisher felt any particular details were less than exciting, they would have been perfectly within their rights to deviate from them. Not saying it's a string of lies by any means, but the publisher owned the story before the book was written, it's theirs to tell, not necessarily his. Because Luttrell co-wrote the book as a work for hire rather than wrote his own book on spec, the veracity of the work simply cannot be trusted as historical fact. The only way to maintain that integrity would have been to write his own book, then sell it with editorial authority built into the deal. I run into this all the time in the screenwriting world, it's a core concern that permeates the whole process of adapting any work of non-fiction. A book or story or magazine article is purchased for adaptation and the studio hires a screenwriter to adapt. The person or people from that source material, whether it be the participants or author or both are made available to the screenwriter for research and the inevitable balance begins; honoring the facts vs maximizing commercial potential. These source material subjects that are unfamiliar with this process and conflict usually assume the studio is interested in "telling it like it happened" and become incensed, sometimes rightfully so, when the project goes in another direction. Many uncomfortable situations occur from that conflict, but inevitably the studio gets what it wants. |
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Posted: 9/12/2009 6:18:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Although I have yet to read his book the classified debrief is astounding and had an amazing amount of detail of what happened to Luttrell and his team. It has changed the my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy...
I have no doubt that his memory of what happened is clear and concise. ~Dg84 |
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Posted: 9/12/2009 7:47:58 PM EDT
[#7]
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Although I have yet to read his book the classified debrief is astounding and had an amazing amount of detail of what happened to Luttrell and his team. It has changed the my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy... I have no doubt that his memory of what happened is clear and concise. ~Dg84 Details for those of us with only a secret-level clearance! Details! Details!! |
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Posted: 9/12/2009 8:44:30 PM EDT
[#8]
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Although I have yet to read his book the classified debrief is astounding and had an amazing amount of detail of what happened to Luttrell and his team. It has changed the my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy... I have no doubt that his memory of what happened is clear and concise. ~Dg84 Details for those of us with only a secret-level clearance! Details! Details!! Hit up your local intel shop... They'll hook you up. |
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Posted: 9/13/2009 4:56:46 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
As someone who has been in much lesser conflict and written a story recounting events, I don't put any stock in that. The burden of accuracy I felt was severe. I never even published my book for fear bastardizing it to the point of being interesting would simply not accurately reflect the history of my guys. There was no way I would piss on the memory of anyone with a flawed account, and I'm sure he felt it far more strongly than me though his story, recounting majorly one isolated few days of time, makes it easier to tell without chopping up while still captivating readers. I would expect him to remember the events. In high adrenaline situations the brain seems to work better, memories are more vivid, and time often seems to slow down assisting the memory recall. It talks about how even two days later he's writing on his leg to remember details- details which with a high degree of accuracy enabled the rescuing unit to trace the battle and find the missing soldiers. He's a recon man- and a sniper- a person trained to remember in great detail in stressful situations. There's no doubt the book is highly accurate. The ghost writer may be able to inject little details around the greater story itself, but the outline of the story has got to be Luttrell's and is probably very accurate. I hear you. The only difference I would suggest is that you wrote your own book and, thus, maintained control of those decisions. Luttrell sold the story rights and his participation, not the book itself, so he really never had legal ownership of the work to control such things. Even if he remembered events with crystal clarity, if the publisher felt any particular details were less than exciting, they would have been perfectly within their rights to deviate from them. Not saying it's a string of lies by any means, but the publisher owned the story before the book was written, it's theirs to tell, not necessarily his. Because Luttrell co-wrote the book as a work for hire rather than wrote his own book on spec, the veracity of the work simply cannot be trusted as historical fact. The only way to maintain that integrity would have been to write his own book, then sell it with editorial authority built into the deal. I run into this all the time in the screenwriting world, it's a core concern that permeates the whole process of adapting any work of non-fiction. A book or story or magazine article is purchased for adaptation and the studio hires a screenwriter to adapt. The person or people from that source material, whether it be the participants or author or both are made available to the screenwriter for research and the inevitable balance begins; honoring the facts vs maximizing commercial potential. These source material subjects that are unfamiliar with this process and conflict usually assume the studio is interested in "telling it like it happened" and become incensed, sometimes rightfully so, when the project goes in another direction. Many uncomfortable situations occur from that conflict, but inevitably the studio gets what it wants. You make a good point, of course another good point is that Luttrell had to get special permission from the Navy to write it, so I'm sure he had that secondary motivation even to make sure he had some written proof of control over what showed in the final draft. Maybe it comes down to whether I believe in heros or not, and I do. |
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Posted: 9/20/2009 12:52:18 AM EDT
[#10]
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I just finished reading the lone survivor by Navy SEAL Marcus Luttrell. The book recounts a harrowing tail of a poorly planned reconnaissance mission that went bad. The SEALS ended up outnumbered approximately 200 taliban to their 4 very skilled SEALs who put up an unbelievable fight against insurmountable odds. What's interesting for the suppressor forum is yet another account of legendary performance by a skilled sniper and the Ops 12th model equipped SPR. There is another story of a Army SF soldier who in a similar situation (probably more advantageous in the dark and concealed) but similarly outnumbered, fighting slightly detached from his 2 or 3-man element, who killed around 60 Taliban single handedly and lived to walk away I think uninjured. Marcus Luttrell amazingly tells the story of around 5 death defying falls of according to his story ~300 yards each, in which the rifle apparently along with him went tumbling down a rocky mountain and yet still after I think 3-4 falls he scored a first round hit on a Taliban scout at 150yards according to him center mass of his head, killing him with one round. The Ops can and it's relatively outstanding low sound signature basically saved him from detection and certain death as searching parties scoured the hill for him- the last surviving SEAL. The story of course speaks of the incredible fighting spirit of his SEALs, but also the rugged construction of the Ops can which must have been undamaged as even slight miss-alignment would have never allowed that particular shot to be taken. Two of their soldiers were armed with MK12's and two with M4's. I wonder if they could have taken the enemy with 4 MK12's? I think the value of an accurate suppressed rifle in the hands of a trained sniper, is hard to deny. the can on the mk12 is its best feature IMO These events aren't really that isolated as they might seem. A friend of mine told me a story of how he prevented a few taliban from flanking his element with his MK12/Ops12th weapon system in a hot and heavy gun battle where all his men went through their basic combat loads as well. I heard his particular rifle on the range stateside and it sounded fantastic. It makes me wish they let Luttrell keep his rifle- hell let all these guys keep their rifles for what they did for our country. Apparently hollywood is making a movie based on the true story recounted in Luttrell's book. |
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Posted: 9/20/2009 7:35:52 AM EDT
[#11]
The account of the SF soldier with suppressor is true.( From the OP) He moved forward and oblique of the rest of his team. Using a PEQ-2 and the suppresor he continued the fight through the night. Everytime and enemy would crest the berm to shot at his team he would place a single round through them. When the sun broke and they got there they credited him with all the dead that were shot by a single round in the same place under the arm crossing the crest cavity. The enemy never new the direction of fire. This also happened in AFG. Sadly I believe he was killed in Iraq(I hope not but am pretty sure that it happened.) It does show the flexibility that a suppressor gives you. Sometimes you want noise. Sometimes you dont.
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Posted: 9/20/2009 10:14:03 AM EDT
[#12]
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It has changed my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy... ~Dg84 How so, looking for what would be considered important in the bag? |
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Posted: 9/20/2009 7:57:03 PM EDT
[#13]
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It has changed my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy... ~Dg84 How so, looking for what would be considered important in the bag? I dumped out the shit I thought was important and put ammo and water in it. |
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Posted: 9/21/2009 3:07:39 AM EDT
[#14]
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It has changed my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy... ~Dg84 How so, looking for what would be considered important in the bag? I dumped out the shit I thought was important and put ammo and water in it. Actually that's a fantastic idea. The water in the middle east may as well be gasoline. As soon as you drink it you're going to get the shits so bad you won't benefit from drinking it. You'll probably dehydrate worse. I watched the locals dump a dead horse in the river one day because it was easier than burying it. We've found human bodies floating down the river too. This of course is where the drinking water comes from. The horse was a trip though, four guys swam it out into the middle of the river, at first I thought it had heat exhaustion and they were going to try to cool it down. Oil, sewage, trash and bodies. Good drinking water no doubt. |
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Posted: 9/21/2009 3:38:45 AM EDT
[#15]
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It has changed my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy... ~Dg84 How so, looking for what would be considered important in the bag? I dumped out the shit I thought was important and put ammo and water in it. Actually that's a fantastic idea. The water in the middle east may as well be gasoline. As soon as you drink it you're going to get the shits so bad you won't benefit from drinking it. You'll probably dehydrate worse. I watched the locals dump a dead horse in the river one day because it was easier than burying it. We've found human bodies floating down the river too. This of course is where the drinking water comes from. The horse was a trip though, four guys swam it out into the middle of the river, at first I thought it had heat exhaustion and they were going to try to cool it down. Oil, sewage, trash and bodies. Good drinking water no doubt. Thanks man... just what I wanted to hear. 
We drink water thats bottled from around here. ETA: I'm sure it's fine, but not something I want to think about. |
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Posted: 9/21/2009 8:05:21 AM EDT
[#16]
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It has changed my approach to packing an evasion bag when I deploy... ~Dg84 How so, looking for what would be considered important in the bag? I dumped out the shit I thought was important and put ammo and water in it. Actually that's a fantastic idea. The water in the middle east may as well be gasoline. As soon as you drink it you're going to get the shits so bad you won't benefit from drinking it. You'll probably dehydrate worse. I watched the locals dump a dead horse in the river one day because it was easier than burying it. We've found human bodies floating down the river too. This of course is where the drinking water comes from. The horse was a trip though, four guys swam it out into the middle of the river, at first I thought it had heat exhaustion and they were going to try to cool it down. Oil, sewage, trash and bodies. Good drinking water no doubt. Thanks man... just what I wanted to hear.
We drink water thats bottled from around here. ETA: I'm sure it's fine, but not something I want to think about. Don't worry the standards for bottled water filtration are high. The thing to worry about with bottled water is getting cancer from the chemicals the plastic bottles release into the water. The subjection to that for us is high. The bottles sit in the sun in shipping yards palatalized for sometimes years and then longer when they get to us. That's why the water tastes like crap. It has lots of plastic chemicals floating in it. Our water you could pour in a glass and its rainbow colored on top in sunlight on account of that stuff. The Navy boys have it worse though, I've heard on some of the older ships the JP8 and water leak together and all their water is laced with JP8. So I'd rather not drink so much plastic but I can't say I think we're the only people this has happened to. Just whatever you do don't open your mouth in the shower- what you can catch from the local water I'm sure is immediately worse than the plastic or the JP8 could be. haha |
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Posted: 9/21/2009 8:59:06 AM EDT
[#17]
You will get sick of endless water. Maybe the gatorade and MRE milkshakes drowned out the flavor of all those carcinogens hitting our tongues. I got H Pylori somewhere between the first and second tour because the water our food was washed and cooked in was local and not filtered. Hell we had a whole platoon get quarantined for a bit because they where projectile vomiting and crapping at the same time. Then again there are other ways to get sick over there and lots of other pressing issues.
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Posted: 9/21/2009 9:16:26 AM EDT
[#18]
I got cholera. Almost died. haha
This is my second tour so I'd gotten all the regular stuff, but cholera was new to me. The good water taste covering product is crystal light lemonade sugar free drink mix- comes in a tall skinny packet and one is good for a liter of water. That's my personal favorite. Tang makes some stuff with vitamins in it that doesn't taste quite as good. Gatoraid is too sugary to be healthy in all your water. It dehydrates too. |
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