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Posted: 8/24/2004 11:55:44 AM EST
I responded in the negative, but he insisted. I argued the restrictions imposed via the '89 executive order & 922(r), but he said they only apply to importation configuration, not modifications made to an imported arm after the fact.

Am I correct?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 1:47:48 PM EST
The stock can be physically changed into a two position stock. Is it legal? No. You would be making a non-importable firearm.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 1:56:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 12:00:33 AM EST by SchlaffTablett]
As 922 applies to shotguns, you could either have a pistolgrip, extended magazine, or folding stock. When it goes away, you should be able to have all three again. I'm about 99% sure the '89 ban has nothing to do with shotguns.

--Edited cuz I'm retarded and didn't think about the question.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 2:13:15 PM EST
Exactly as I asserted.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 2:56:40 PM EST
Local dealer said the M1014 fixed telestock could be made adjustable if when the '94 ban expires...

fixed it for ya.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:56:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By jtw2:
Local dealer said the M1014 fixed telestock could be made adjustable if when the '94 ban expires...

fixed it for ya.



Fair enough. Still, I still think he's wrong about the mod being legal.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:41:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 9:41:56 PM EST by Scollins]
Weren't there some folding stock M3s imported after 1989 but before 1994? Wouldn't that suggest that a tele-stock on an M1014 wouldn't be a "banned" configuration under 922 restrictions? I'm not at all sure about when the folders were imported......

Also, where does it list what guns are affected by the '89 Executive Order? I'm just curious....
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:15:46 AM EST
if this is the case, wouldn't Benelli sell the collapsible stock after the ban is lifted? Since there are M4's made with the pistol grip stock.
Don't get your hopes up over this one. I believe the '89 ban covers this unless you are able to put enough American made parts into the rifle. I forget the exact number, but since we're talking about a Benelli, the aftermarket is fairly thin and I doubt you'd be able to source enough USA made parts.
-Steve
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:44:45 AM EST
I'm pretty sure it isn't covered in the '89 ban, and yes, if it is Kosher, Benilli should start selling them with real soon. I know they are already selling the mag extensions some places.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:05:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 1:14:17 PM EST by dport]
You are incorrect.
I wanted to do the same thing; however, it is illegal.
As you can see, this topic has been covered frequently on this board.
Link 1Link 2Link 3
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:17:03 PM EST
Yeah, this topic has been well covered and hasn't changed much since the same conversation was had 2 weeks ago.

If I had a dollar for every FFL that threw ignorant, asinine comments out like that... They are empowered by the federal gov't as agents of the state and yet they so often don't know what the hell they are talking about.

It is illegal to install a working telestock or modify the exiting telestock on an M1014/M4, not only because of the AWB, but also because of 18 USC 922(r), which makes it a felony to create or modify an imported firearm into non-importable form. This includes the Benelli M1014/M4. While the AWB may in fact go away, at least for awhile, 922r has no expiration date.

922r was enacted in Nov '90 (it was NOT part of the '89 Bush Ban though it is an epilogue to it) to close the very loophole you are talking about, which is to do whatever you want to the imported gun after it has been imported. Can't do that anymore. 922r stipulates that the imported firearm must remain in a configuration that is itself importable, meaning the faux telestock on the M1014 must stay that way.

The only ways around the 922r issue are these:

1) Replace enough of the Benelli parts with U.S.-made parts so that the Benelli has enough to be considered domestically manufactured and not imported. You will need to replace enough parts so that the sum total is 10 or less imported parts from the recognized list of firearm parts pertaining to that gun. If you look at the master list and cross off parts that simply do not exist on the Benelli (barrel extension, etc.), it is virtually the same as if you added that part to the gun as US made. Get the list down to 10 or less imported parts and you are golden. But good luck doing so.

2) Create an NFA shotgun out of it by submitting an ATF Form 1, an application to create a Short Barreled Shotgun. 922r does not apply to NFA firearms and if you were to legally create an SBS, then after the AWB expires (the AWB still applies to semi-automatic NFA firearms), you can do anything you like to it short of converting it to full-auto.

Benelli would sell these if they could. After all, vendors have been selling telestocks for ARs even with the AWB in effect, leaving up to the end-user to abide by the law because there are legit and legal uses for AR telestocks on pre-ban guns. No, Benelli knows there is no legal way to use these telestocks, so they keep them close and don't sell them as parts or on guns to anyone that isn't a gov't or LE organization.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:21:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 4:23:30 PM EST by Scollins]

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
It is illegal to install a working telestock or modify the exiting telestock on an M1014/M4, not only because of the AWB, but also because of 18 USC 922(r), which makes it a felony to create or modify an imported firearm into non-importable form. This includes the Benelli M1014/M4. While the AWB may in fact go away, at least for awhile, 922r has no expiration date.



I've read 922(r) (I think!) and nowhere in there do I see where it says a tele-stock on an imported shotgun is a no-no. Can someone PLEASE post where the tele-stock is mentioned as being a banned item on an imported shotgun. For the life of me, I can't find it anywhere........

Or is it based on the OPINION of the AG that it is not "sporting" thus not allowed?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:33:38 PM EST
Yeah guys, but aren't the 1014's made in the US???
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:49:08 PM EST
Here is what I read in 922 (r):
"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to -"

It then goes on to say it doesn't apply to Mil and LE. So I got to 925(d)(3) as noted above, and it says this:

925 (d): The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition - "
(3): is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled;


I then go to section 5845(a) of the IRS code of 1986 (Title 26):
Sec. 5845. - Definitions
For the purpose of this chapter -
(a) Firearm
The term ''firearm'' means
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);


So, I still see no indication of the type of stock that is allowed on a shotgun under 922(r) or any of the subsequent sections mentioned. I did find a section where the ATF created the classification of an "Assault Rifle" in 1989. That section does list tele-stocks, but only mentions rifles specifically and not shotguns. As shotguns and rifles are handled as separate items, the conditions imposed on one are not automatically imposed on the other unless specifically noted. As shotguns were not specifically noted, then it arguable that adding a tele-stock to a Benelli is OK.

Naturally, if the AG rules the M4 with working tele-stock is not particulary "sporting" then it doesn't matter. I think the crux of the matter is that prior to the M4, I don't think any shotgun ever had a tele-stock.

So, who wants to be the test case........

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:02:21 PM EST
The M1014's are, in fact, fabbed & assembled in Italy. You'd think they'd have to be made here as part of a contract to supply our troops, but that's not the case w/ this SG. I kept trying to explain to the guy that it's simply not legal to mod the weapon due to the import restrictions not related to the recent '94 ban, & that the specific configurations weren't just in reference to its form upon import. His reply that he's been in the business for 20+ years, blah, blah, blah, just turned me off at that point, so I stopped trying to convince him & let it go. I figure if they actually do this mod for someone, the BATF will eventually get wind of it & there'll be some serious hell to pay.

I'd hope that they'll educate themselves about this because the shop is actually a good place w/ great pricing. I'd hate to see them lose their license because of simple ignorance. I plan to go there again in a couple weeks, so I'm hoping to clarify the matter w/ them.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:11:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Scollins:

I've read 922(r) (I think!) and nowhere in there do I see where it says a tele-stock on an imported shotgun is a no-no. Can someone PLEASE post where the tele-stock is mentioned as being a banned item on an imported shotgun. For the life of me, I can't find it anywhere........

Or is it based on the OPINION of the AG that it is not "sporting" thus not allowed?



You won't find that anywhere. Telestocks on imported firearms are not banned by law. But The Gun Cotrol Act of 1968 gave ATF the authority to determine what is "sporting" and ATF has determined that telestocks on Benelli M1014/M4s are not suitable for sporting purposes using whatever criteria they currently have. Sure, it's very subjective and inconsistent, but that is how it works. Whatever criteria were used to approve that importation are the criteria that must remain with the gun. ATF Import Branch won't allow the M1014 LE into the country with a telestock, therefore imported M1014s cannot have telestocks thereafter.

And FYI, nothing Benelli sells is manufactured here, everything comes from Italy, with the interesting exception of the M1 Super 90 Entry model. NFA firearms by definition are not sporting and cannot be imported for civilian sales, so Benelli Italy takes a standard 18"-barreled M1 and mounts the rear sights just behind the 14" mark. Benelli USA then imports tham as regular Title I shotguns and once they are in-country, they submit the ATF forms to register them as NFA firearms, then cut the barrels down to 14" and sell them as the Entry model. Very clever way around this very issue.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:16:09 PM EST
Thanks for the great info re: importation of the Benelli shotguns!
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:18:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Homeinvader:

You won't find that anywhere. Telestocks on imported firearms are not banned by law. But The Gun Cotrol Act of 1968 gave ATF the authority to determine what is "sporting" and ATF has determined that telestocks on Benelli M1014/M4s are not suitable for sporting purposes using whatever criteria they currently have. Sure, it's very subjective and inconsistent, but that is how it works. Whatever criteria were used to approve that importation are the criteria that must remain with the gun. ATF Import Branch won't allow the M1014 LE into the country with a telestock, therefore imported M1014s cannot have telestocks thereafter.




So the only chance of having a tele-stock on an M1014 is if the AG or ATF allows the importation based on its "sporting" suitability. But someone could manufacture an almost identical shotgun in the USA, and it would be ok. Seems like a real crock of shit to me.

But then again, I think there are more onerous laws on the books than the AWB......... 1934 and 1968 come to mind.......

I would love to have an M4 with a pistol grip and full mag capacity. I can do without the tele-stock, but it would be rather handy for storage. I won't be trading my M1S90 anytime soon for an M4, as I don't imagine the prices will be all that good, AWB or no AWB......
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:49:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Scollins:
I would love to have an M4 with a pistol grip and full mag capacity.



When the AW ban sunsets, you can have just that. The mag extension will be legal. It just cannot have a working telestock. I'll probably buy the standard pistol grip stock and install my mag extension, and just trash the faux telestock.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:51:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Scollins:
Weren't there some folding stock M3s imported after 1989 but before 1994? Wouldn't that suggest that a tele-stock on an M1014 wouldn't be a "banned" configuration under 922 restrictions? I'm not at all sure about when the folders were imported......



My 1994 copy of Gun Digest lists the folding stock M3 still being imported in early 1994. That's what has confused me greatly.
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