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Posted: 12/9/2013 2:35:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2013 10:25:04 AM EST by SWThomas]
I've been posting a lot lately but my brain is a sponge right now and you guys always provide the knowledge. I wanna talk about all the different things folks do when reloading for maximum precision accuracy. What I'm gonna do is list some things I've seen folks do and ask for your input on the topic. What I would like is some sort of proof/data that a certain step has made a measurable difference in accuracy. Right now I'm chasing the accuracy goal with my GAP-10 but I will be having a precision bolt gun built soon. Here goes...

- Turning case necks

- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers

- Using competition seating dies over standard dies

- Crimping and not crimping

- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands

- Uniforming primer pockets

- Deburring flash holes

- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs

- Gauging run-out/concentricity

Please provide input on any or all of these steps and if you've personally observed increases in accuracy by performing them. If you would like to add something I didn't list, feel free to do so.
Link Posted: 12/9/2013 3:09:08 PM EST
Grab a copy of The Benchrest Shooting Primer. Most every question will be answered.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/9/2013 3:15:40 PM EST
interested
Link Posted: 12/9/2013 4:17:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/9/2013 6:45:01 PM EST by Trollslayer]
What sights, rifle, barrel and (importantly) what chamber do you have. What events do you plan to compete in? What are your goals for those events? These are important to determine where you will reach your point of diminishing return.

- Turning case necks - mostly useless unless you have a custom, tight-necked chamber, in which case it's mandatory.

- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers - I have used both and don't see any particular difference. Pick one type and stick with it until all/most of the other bugs are worked out.

- Using competition seating dies over standard dies - Definitely worth having. If you can afford one, get it, if for no other reason than the ease of changing OAL.

- Crimping and not crimping - I have not found this necessary and don't do it on any of my precision reloads

- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands - I always load off the lands, typically 0.010". If the loads need to fit the magazine, I load short enough to fit.

- Uniforming primer pockets - Do it as soon as you can, when cleaning primer pockets is a good time.

- Deburring flash holes - Do it before the first loading.

- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs - push them back about 0.002".
Link Posted: 12/9/2013 4:40:11 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
What sights, rifle, barrel and (importantly) what chamber do you have. What events do you plan to compete in? What are your goals for those events? These are important to determine where you will reach your point of diminishing return.

- Turning case necks - mostly useless unless you have a custom, tight-necked chamber, in which case it's mandatory.

- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers - I have used both and don't see any particular difference. Pick one type and stick with it until all/most of the other bugs are worked out.

- Using competition seating dies over standard dies - Definitely worth having. If you can afford one, get it, if for no other reason than the ease of changing OAL.

- Crimping and not crimping - I have not found this necessary and don't do it on any of my precision reloads

- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands - I always load off the lands, typically 0.010". If the loads need to fit the magazine, I may load short enough to fit.

- Uniforming primer pockets - Do it as soon as you can, when cleaning primer pockets is a good time.

- Deburring flash holes - Do it before the first loading.

- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs - push them back about 0.002".
View Quote
To me this will be the biggest factor in determining how badly you'll reach 'paralysis by analysis' as I'd like to call it. As mentioned, pick up a book about bench rest shooting and prepare to be amazed/baffled by the amount of time and effort they put into gaining .1 MOA. You may find that what has been already mentioned above is enough to get the results you desire.


Link Posted: 12/10/2013 5:45:17 AM EST
OK I'm sold on the competition seating dies.

If I were to buy a Redding seating micrometer, would it fit in my Dillon seating die?

Also, what's the difference between the VLD micrometer and the Standard?
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 5:51:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By SWThomas:
I've been posting a lot lately but my brain is a sponge right now and you guys always provide the knowledge. I wanna talk about all the different things folks do when reloading for maximum precision accuracy. What I'm gonna do is list some things I've seen folks do and ask for your input on the topic. What I would like is some sort of proof/data that a certain step has made a measurable difference in accuracy. Right now I'm chasing the accuracy goal with my GAP-10 but I will be having a precision bolt gun built soon. Here goes...

- Turning case necks Waste of time

- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers Primers make a difference. Chronographs talk.

- Using competition seating dies over standard dies Use Forster or Wilson dies.

- Crimping and not crimping Single shot or magazine?

- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands Start at 15 thousands, experiment to your hearts content. (waste of time)

- Uniforming primer pockets Buy Lapua brass.

- Deburring flash holes Buy Lapua brass.

- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs Do as little as possible to get cases back into gun.

Please provide input on any or all of these steps and if you've personally observed increases in accuracy by performing them. If you would like to add something I didn't list, feel free to do so.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/10/2013 5:53:18 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SWThomas:
OK I'm sold on the competition seating dies.

If I were to buy a Redding seating micrometer, would it fit in my Dillon seating die?

Also, what's the difference between the VLD micrometer and the Standard?
View Quote


VLD is for those really long bullets like the Berger 90g in .223. I have the Redding comp in .308 and really like it. I don't know about the Dillon question as I don't have a Dillon but as far as I

know it should fit.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 6:21:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By SWThomas:
I've been posting a lot lately but my brain is a sponge right now and you guys always provide the knowledge. I wanna talk about all the different things folks do when reloading for maximum precision accuracy. What I'm gonna do is list some things I've seen folks do and ask for your input on the topic. What I would like is some sort of proof/data that a certain step has made a measurable difference in accuracy. Right now I'm chasing the accuracy goal with my GAP-10 but I will be having a precision bolt gun built soon. Here goes...

- Turning case necks

- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers

- Using competition seating dies over standard dies

- Crimping and not crimping

- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands

- Uniforming primer pockets

- Deburring flash holes

- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs

Please provide input on any or all of these steps and if you've personally observed increases in accuracy by performing them. If you would like to add something I didn't list, feel free to do so.
View Quote


By now you probably get the drift... that there are no easy answers to these questions because the context really matters.
Your GAP-10 is a very popular rig and the Bartlein bbl with the right reamer is certainly capable of accuracy work (notice I didn't use precision since a great group off the target isn't likely to make you happy in your context).
Your best bet is to start out reading to save yourself time and money. An isolated individual is going to have to have a lot of resources and a long life to accomplish these goals. Better to learn from your peers and build on their base.

The distance match games that include highpower, silhouette, F-Class, benchrest, etc. all run a little different schools of thought but have the goal of precision with more than a cold bore shot.
The Riflemen's Journal Blog by German Salazar is a good site to start reading about precision loading for distances past 300 yards. Also, there are a few books you should digest like the ones Zediker sells, the books by Ratigan and Boyer on benchrest, the ballistics and shooting books by Litz, the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, etc. etc.
Not everything from the M14 transfers to the GAP-10 loading, but that knowledge base helps you watch for issues and differences. When you start your bolt gun, you will find many more new differences. In any case, here is a little nightstand reading and good luck with your GAP-10 and bolt gun build.
http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html

Link Posted: 12/10/2013 9:17:37 AM EST
A while back I think Biggdawg took the time and made some match rounds and the results werent that much different than regular case prep for an AR. Considering the enormous amount of time it takes to do this.

This is precission reloading in a nutshell.

Left hand column he has a 4 pt series with vids, titled AR-308 Precision Loading you can click thru

I thought it was well done.

Link Posted: 12/10/2013 10:25:59 AM EST
I'm definitely going to buy some of these books and get to reading.

What do you guys think about gauging run out for a gasser like I'm shooting?
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 10:51:06 AM EST
GET THE ZEDIKER BOOK. It's outstanding, and the way he writes is actually pretty entertaining. I've read it a few times.

Also Google German Salazar's articles, he has a ton of reloading info and knows what he's talking about.

I've been handloading .308 for 1K for a few years now, here are my opinions:




- Turning case necks - I do it, and have measured a decrease in runout for my loaded rounds. It takes some time and is a serious pain in the ass; but I have measured a small decrease in group size attributed to it.

- Using bench rest primers VS standard primers - I use CCI standard primers, they do just fine. Apparently benchrest shooters use whichever primer provides LOWER muzzle velocity, as it will provide lower SDs, they prefer wolf believe it or not.

- Using competition seating dies over standard dies - German has an article where he tested the top few dies and Redding micrometer dies have performed the best. The micrometer is mandatory if you want to fine tune seating depth (and you do)

- Crimping and not crimping - no.

- Loading to be just off the lands or kissing the lands - Mostly depends on the bullet ogive; VLD style (secant) ogives generally work best jammed, normal rounded (tangent) ogives usually want to jump. Just a rule of thumb.

- Uniforming primer pockets - I do for the 1st and every few firings, it provides a level surface for the primer anvil to set. Never tested it but it is supposed to improve accuracy. Takes 10 seconds with a power tool.

- Deburring flash holes - Do it! Increases case capacity slightly and provides better SD

- Bumping shoulders VS resizing to factory specs - I use a shoulder bump neck sizing die, might re-evaluate this when I rebarrel.

- Gauging run-out/concentricity - I use a Sinclair tool, it's good for testing how well your process is working.

Please provide input on any or all of these steps and if you've personally observed increases in accuracy by performing them. If you would like to add something I didn't list, feel free to do so.
View Quote


I would add, if you have the scratch get a Giraud, they save a ton of time.

I also measure all my charges on a digital scale, and use a forester co-ax press for everything. Get more brass than you think you will need and weigh and sort your cases, toss the shitty ones.


Link Posted: 12/10/2013 10:54:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SWThomas:
I'm definitely going to buy some of these books and get to reading.

What do you guys think about gauging run out for a gasser like I'm shooting?
View Quote


Sir, I'm going to try to answer your question anecdotally.

Some years ago when a friend and myself were competing with M1As in a Navy East Coast Match, my friend had a pocket sized "run-out" tool that he had made with a Gems dial indicator (he's a tool and die maker in real life). Since we were using issue M852 he sorted his ammo by run out and saved the rounds with the least run out the slow fire prone stage of the match. I on the other hand was not convinced such things made any significant difference. Since both of us have always been of about equal skill it seemed reasonable to conclude his significantly higher scores in the MR prone were largely due to the less and more consistent run out of the rounds he used for that stage of the match.

Suffice it to say I take considerable care particularly for long range stages of a match to use cartridges with minimal run out, but fwiw I take great care to load them all that way. HTH, 7zero1.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 11:16:40 AM EST
After about a year in the long distance arena we have rounds that are far better than we we first began. I agree with most of the comments above but I would ADD record keeping to the list of must do`s. Buy a Kestrel and a Magneedo Speed and USE them.
It also helps to have an IR temp gun and a stop watch so that you can replicate test conditions while doing load work ups. Our last batch of "confirmed" match rounds had a "zero" sd. I`d better hush now.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 12:36:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ACEB36TC:
After about a year in the long distance arena we have rounds that are far better than we we first began. I agree with most of the comments above but I would ADD record keeping to the list of must do`s. Buy a Kestrel and a Magneedo Speed and USE them.
It also helps to have an IR temp gun and a stop watch so that you can replicate test conditions while doing load work ups. Our last batch of "confirmed" match rounds had a "zero" sd. I`d better hush now.
View Quote


Sir, tell me more! 7zero1 out.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 12:54:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ACEB36TC:
It also helps to have an IR temp gun and a stop watch so that you can replicate test conditions while doing load work ups. Our last batch of "confirmed" match rounds had a "zero" sd. I`d better hush now.
View Quote


Ya, I'd like to hear more about this too.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 2:54:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SWThomas:
I'm definitely going to buy some of these books and get to reading.

What do you guys think about gauging run out for a gasser like I'm shooting?
View Quote


Unless you're a far-sub-MOA shooter with a far-sub-MOA gun, it won't buy you anything appreciable, especially if you're using good dies in the first place.
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 3:28:00 PM EST
Just got through this book and am reloading 223 for highpower matches. Great book:



http://www.zediker.com/books/handloading/hlmain.html
Link Posted: 12/10/2013 3:31:35 PM EST
OK OK OK!!!!!! I`ll tell you guys what we do. lol

When we are working up loads ( my son is the shooter) we ALWAYS record chamber/barrel temp with the IR device so that we can recreate , as close as possible, the conditions of the prior shot when running the chronograph for example. This is where the stop watch comes in. It`s pretty easy to graph ( predict) the effect of different chamber /barrel temps on poi.

Some of his competitions have timed stations where he has to fire , say, eight shots in 90 seconds. We have data showing the poi differential at different ranges vs. barrel / chamber temps. There are many many relationships that are temp dependent. We still have lots and lots to explore but what we have learned has shown that we are on the right track.

Powder temp is something we are working on now. Baking sun in the summer with no shade with rounds sitting out vs. being covered is an issue. I do NOT know everything but we are getting there quickly. My background helps a lot. His education ( MBA) helps a lot. I don`t type well enough to do a book on the subject here.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 2:57:51 AM EST
projectile choice will have far bigger impact than any other fiddling you could possibly do. deburring primer pockets, turning necks, runout/concentricity, etc. is diminishing returns. unless you are already pushing .2moa it's a waste of time.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 3:56:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2013 4:00:15 AM EST by Danger6]
The most important part of accurate reloading is selection of a high quality bullet. Then development of an accurate load component combination.

Concentricity - RCBS Case Master

I use the RCBS Case Master to monitor case neck and bullet concentricity. For long range or high power long line this is appropriate. Typically you want to keep the run out 4/1000 or less.

To do that consistently, you need good quality brass, and a high quality die set. I use RCBS Competition dies and Redding FL Neck Bushing dies, and BR seater dies. Hence in monitoring run out, I cover two other key aspects of accurate reloading

The Case Master will also do other things including check for incipient case head separation.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 4:01:19 AM EST
Real proof would be you testing all of these and understanding what works and what doesn't. Don't believe what other people say, ho find out what works for you.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 5:06:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bani:
projectile choice will have far bigger impact than any other fiddling you could possibly do. deburring primer pockets, turning necks, runout/concentricity, etc. is diminishing returns. unless you are already pushing .2moa it's a waste of time.
View Quote



I would be very surprised if anybody can reliably achieve .2moa groups without doing all that had been mentioned plus more. If I am wrong please tell me because I am in the middle of reloading and would rather not have to do all the prep work to achieve .5moa capable ammo, let alone .2moa ammo.

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 5:17:09 AM EST
The secret to great accuracy is a good barrel.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 6:49:07 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RugRat:
The secret to great accuracy is a good barrel.
View Quote


a good chamber, bolt, and a perfect crown.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 8:06:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RugRat:
The secret to great accuracy is a good barrel.
View Quote


I got that covered. I have a Bartlein on the GAP-10 and am getting a Bartlein turned for my bolt gun.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 8:13:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kc8flb:



I would be very surprised if anybody can reliably achieve .2moa groups without doing all that had been mentioned plus more. If I am wrong please tell me because I am in the middle of reloading and would rather not have to do all the prep work to achieve .5moa capable ammo, let alone .2moa ammo.

Thanks
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kc8flb:
Originally Posted By bani:
projectile choice will have far bigger impact than any other fiddling you could possibly do. deburring primer pockets, turning necks, runout/concentricity, etc. is diminishing returns. unless you are already pushing .2moa it's a waste of time.



I would be very surprised if anybody can reliably achieve .2moa groups without doing all that had been mentioned plus more. If I am wrong please tell me because I am in the middle of reloading and would rather not have to do all the prep work to achieve .5moa capable ammo, let alone .2moa ammo.

Thanks


Just for the perspective, you won't win too many benchrest matches with ".2" groups. Now if you are shooting in the .02s then you might have something. The most important aspect of the precision game is $$$$$. EVERY edge(technique) is tried. Somebody will come up with THEE technique and IF you want to win you will follow the winner. THEE BEST BBLs, bullets, optics, presses etc. AND the ability to shoot, not just pull triggers.
Link Posted: 12/11/2013 5:47:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2013 5:48:39 PM EST by bani]
the best modifications you can make to improve accuracy is behind the trigger. wont matter how accurate your ammo is if you can't read conditions or haven't gathered enough dope data.

how well are you consistently shooting with factory ammo currently?
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 5:51:55 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bani:
the best modifications you can make to improve accuracy is behind the trigger. wont matter how accurate your ammo is if you can't read conditions or haven't gathered enough dope data.

how well are you consistently shooting with factory ammo currently?
View Quote


Sir, +1 to that! I've always thought of it as the triangle of shooting, ie: rifle, ammo, shooter. If all three don't perform well the shots WILL go awry. JMHO, 7zero1.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 6:11:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bani:
the best modifications you can make to improve accuracy is behind the trigger. wont matter how accurate your ammo is if you can't read conditions or haven't gathered enough dope data.

how well are you consistently shooting with factory ammo currently?
View Quote


Very good. I'm a 15 year Marine with a 10th Award Rifle Expert badge. I know a little bit about marksmanship.
Link Posted: 12/12/2013 6:38:44 PM EST
I will give my opinions on how I find accuracy in my process. I have loaded over 7000 rounds of precision rifle over the past 2 years. I shoot a lot of precision rifle matches and am qualified as a pro in the Precision Rifle Series.

First, while that GAP-10 is a fine AR and likely the most accurate AR-10 available, don't expect miracles in the accuracy department. That gun will likely not shoot consistently inside a half inch. Mine certainly won't.

For that gun, I recommend a simple process:

Buy good brass. Lapua is the best, by far.
Use either a Russian (Wolf/Tula), or a CCI primer. No reason to use the BR primers for that gun.
Use Varget, or 8208XBR, or H49895 depending on the bullet you choose to shoot.
Use a bullet that is appropriate for the ranges that you want to shoot. The Hornady 178 A-max is a good bullet that is affordable. Probably stay away for 155s for a gas gun. You probably can't push them fast enough to gan any advantage from them.
Use Forster full length sizing dies.
Chamfor the inside of the necks.
Use the OCW method for load development.

Don't turn necks. Is is time consuming and while it will reduce runout, that bolt slamming the round into the chamber will offset any gains you might have picked up.
Don't crimp. You don't need a crimp. It will hurt accuracy in all but a few very limited situations.
You will likely be limited to magazine length before you run into the lands (depending on bullet choice).

The GAP-10 is a very good gun, but spend your time shooting it rather than chasing the loading dragon.

The bolt gun that you have coming is a different story.


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