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Posted: 3/6/2002 10:45:28 PM EDT
New to ar15 collecting, can a 14.5 inch upper be used on a pre-ban lower? or is that below the legal limit on barrel length. I know I've read about guns under a certain barrel length having to be registered as pistols, short barrelled rifles, etc. like the 11.5" upper at Bushmasters site.

Any help?

Thanks :)
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 11:02:42 PM EDT
Unless registered as short barrel rifle or pistol, your barrel needs to be 16 inches minimun. You can also achieve this by permanently installing a flash suppressor if preban or muzzle brake to bring overall length of barrel to at least 16 inches.
Link Posted: 3/6/2002 11:12:18 PM EDT
16" Minimum on all rifles.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 5:04:38 AM EDT
Yes, you can have a 14.5" barrel on a preban. BUT, there must be a 1.5" flash suppressor or muzzle brake. to bring it to the 16" legal limit.

Same on the 11.5", except those need a 5.5" flash suppressor or brake.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 5:29:25 AM EDT
bushmaster can blind pin/weld a vortex or phantom flash suppressor to the 14.5 barrel, bringing it up to the legal 16"
That's what I have and it's wonderfull.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 12:39:49 PM EDT
Right, 14.5 plus the 1.5 flash hider. But take this for instance:

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/pre-ban/bura2b14.5.asp

is that 14.5 total? or 14.5 barrel only, plus the flash hider.
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 1:31:20 PM EDT
No, look at the bottom of the page, it says that the barrel may only be used on a pistol or machine gun for legality. Unless the flash hider is permanently attached this would be illegal. 16" minimum length no exceptions.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:06:35 AM EDT
Someone help me out here..... where do you measure the barrel from to determine the overall length?

I'm considering the 14.5" barrel with the permanent phantom FS option. Does anyone have any pics of this setup? Doesn't it meet the 16" min. length?
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:47:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:53:27 AM EDT
Is a 14.5" barrel with a birdcage fs 16" ? At the funshow yesterday they had 16" and 14.5" colt uppers with birdcage fs right next to each other and the 14.5" upper with fs looked much shorter.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 10:18:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WTL:
I'm considering the 14.5" barrel with the permanent phantom FS option. Does anyone have any pics of this setup? Doesn't it meet the 16" min. length?




Yes. It will meet the 16" minimum length requirement.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 10:46:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Is a 14.5" barrel with a birdcage fs 16" ?


No, it's shorter than 16". That's why most people with M4 barrels permanently attach a Phantom or Vortex on prebans, or a longer KKF style muzzle brake on postbans.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 1:46:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2002 1:47:15 PM EDT by M4Madness]

Originally Posted By WTL:
I'm considering the 14.5" barrel with the permanent phantom FS option. Does anyone have any pics of this setup? Doesn't it meet the 16" min. length?



Here is a photo of my 14.5" barrel with permanently-attached Phantom. It brings the barrel length past the 16" legal limit. This can be accomplished on post-ban barrels as well, only using a muzzlebrake instead of the flash suppressor.

Link Posted: 3/18/2002 2:07:35 PM EDT
NICE!

M4Madness, can you mount a bayonet on that Phantom? (Useless, I know. I just want to know if it's possible.)
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 2:20:49 PM EDT
M4Madness,

you did not specify...., but !! if that were a pre-ban Colt, wyth a 4x Colt scope what wud it be worth ?

$1,800 to $2,000.................?


Link Posted: 3/18/2002 2:42:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4me2:
NICE!

M4Madness, can you mount a bayonet on that Phantom? (Useless, I know. I just want to know if it's possible.)



Yep..... if you have the 14.5" barrel with the perm. attatched suppressor. If you use a 16" M4 barrel then no... the barrel is too long.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 6:59:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By WTL:
I'm considering the 14.5" barrel with the permanent phantom FS option. Does anyone have any pics of this setup? Doesn't it meet the 16" min. length?



Here is a photo of my 14.5" barrel with permanently-attached Phantom. It brings the barrel length past the 16" legal limit. This can be accomplished on post-ban barrels as well, only using a muzzlebrake instead of the flash suppressor.

http://imagep.webphotos.iwon.com//1000030321/1000030321_313200244421PM9.133548E-02.jpg



That is one sweet AR, I love it! Thanks for the pic.

Now, which companies sell the 14.5" barrel with permanent phantom besides Bushmaster?
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 7:10:16 PM EDT
YES.......!!

BEAUTIFUL......!!

LOVELY.........!!

even SEXY.........!!

BUT !! whats it worth ?? i know a fellow who has one, a pre-ban Colt wyth Colt scope, he says it come from the factory as is........... how about it ? did they come from Colt wyth 4x scope ?????



Link Posted: 3/18/2002 7:12:22 PM EDT
Have you guys stopped to think that for a mere 200 dollars you can do a form 1 conversion and make your AR a legal short barrelled rifle?

That's a pretty sweet bargain, these days. If I had any interest in shorties, I wouldn't hesitate to do it, but I prefer my rifles long, quiet, and accurate, with high muzzle velocity.

Shorties tend to be noisy, generate a lot of muzzle flash, and sacrifice long range accuracy, muzzle velocity, and range for the sake of handling. I'm not looking for that as of yet.

Heck, I might do it anyway so I can buy whatever upper I like. (Knowing that a registered post-ban SBR still has to comply with the AW restrictions.)

The only catch is, I think that as things stand now, only a title II manufacturer can legally perform a form 1 conversion, including SBR's. I'm about 80 percent sure of that. And he will probably charge a fee for filing the paperwork.


CJ
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 7:15:11 PM EDT
OK, now I have some questions: I'm probably just dense (see signature line below), but why would you choose a 14.5" barrel with a long flash supressor instead of a 16" with a birdcage? I would like to have a 14.5" on mine to make it more nimble in CQ conditions, but the long FS defeats the purpose and you give up velocity to boot!

Also, what are the pros/cons of the Vortex vs. the Phantom FS? As I understand it, the Vortex is more effective and recommended for use with NV gear. Are there disadvantages to it?

Thanks in advance for contributing to my edumacation.
Link Posted: 3/18/2002 9:58:31 PM EDT
Ok, can a PRE-BAN be converted to a short barreled rifle(for $200 like mentioned above)? I mean registered as one legally? Or only post.
Link Posted: 3/19/2002 5:14:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlammO:
OK, now I have some questions: I'm probably just dense (see signature line below), but why would you choose a 14.5" barrel with a long flash supressor instead of a 16" with a birdcage? I would like to have a 14.5" on mine to make it more nimble in CQ conditions, but the long FS defeats the purpose and you give up velocity to boot!



For me, it's about the look of the gun. The 16" with FS has that Pinocchio look. Also, It is my understanding that the bayonet will work on this type setup whereas it won't on the 16". Correct me if I'm mistaken on that. It's not that I'm gonna be using the bayonet but why have the lug if I can't mount the bayonet from time to time (just for the fun of it).

If I'm not gonna take advantage of they bayo lug and FS, then I could've saved some money and bought a post-ban. That's just my thoughts on the issue.

Anybody know who (besides Bushy...nothing against them) makes the 14.5 with permanent phantom/vortex FS???

Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 12:55:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2002 12:58:00 PM EDT by M4Madness]
Okay, guys, I'm back after a couple of days absence. My pre-ban M4A3 clone is a Bushmaster upper receiver assembly on a pre-ban Colt Sporter lower receiver. I haven't gotten around to picking up a bayonet yet, but have seen posts by members who have put them on over Phantoms with no problem. A bayonet will not work correctly on a 16" barrel. It is designed for 14.5" and 20" barrels. I went with the 14.5" barrel in order to get as compact a weapon as possible (plus the bayonet issue further leaned me that way). I'm not sure who sells barrels/uppers with permanently-attached Phantoms. I guess that you could buy whatever brand you want and send it off to have one attached, like at Kurt's Kustom or elsewhere. I am unsure as to the value of the pre-ban Colt that was referred to by Cactus Jack, but I figure it would be up there, as my Colt/Bushmaster M4A3 chimes in at about $1600 invested.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 1:07:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xk319:
Ok, can a PRE-BAN be converted to a short barreled rifle(for $200 like mentioned above)? I mean registered as one legally? Or only post.




Yes, ANY rifle can be registered as an SBR if you pay the tax and fill out the forms and are approved and jump through whatever hoops are required by the form instructions and by local laws.

However, note that the ATF has ruled that registering a post-ban rifle as an SBR does NOT allow you to add on the "evil features" that would make it an "asault rifle" as defined in the 1994 assault weapons ban.

That ruling reverses an earlier one that they had made which stated you COULD do that, since it turns the rifle in to an NFA firearm instead of a rifle. I guess some political pressure may have been applied to them to force a change of policy.

My personal view is that if either ruling has a better basis in law, it would be the earlier one.

CJ


CJ
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