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Posted: 6/13/2009 10:45:18 AM EST
I just sorted through a couple thousand mixed brass to pull out the Berdan, Remington and LC cases and found something new to me... Some of the LC head stamps have the NATO cross and looked just as I expected, some don't have the cross and the L & C are spaced father apart. Not a fabulous pic here, but it shows what I'm talking about. What I see as "normal" LC brass is on the bottom and the "other" is on the top.

Same brass or do I need to sort these again?

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 11:32:35 AM EST
The NATO mark is only on M855/856 ammo. There is still a lot of M193 brass which WAS NEVER NATO.


But what about XM193? That was made BY FEDERAL in their civy plants in MN from reclaimed brass. It wasn't "contract overrun" or "out of specification", period. From the time ammo comes off the line, it is US Government property, subject to the rules of disposition and cannot be sold on the civillian market. The only way it can get on the civy market is if it is sold to a foreign government who then dispose of it on the surplus market. Any non-conformal ammunition is broken down and components salvaged.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 2:32:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 2:36:04 PM EST by ReefRaider]
I don't know what you plan on loading this for. But I can say after processing over 30K of LC 5.56 brass. That the LC brass is as consistent case to case as it is year to year despite the head stamps.

As for the whole XM193 and the M193 thing. I would like to know your source of info. As I have been told very different things about the XM193. From some very reliable sources such as Pat Rogers.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 2:53:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 2:53:47 PM EST by nightwolf357]
Obviously the LC with the year made and the sign is the NATO sign is obvious.

I do have a question though I have 2 different year LC without the NATO markings but instead they have L R stamped on them. Does the L R stand for long range?? and if so then what use was it origionally made for as well. In the mix of brass that I bought there were 2 LC that had the word MATCH on them so I figure that was precision match ammo. but the LR I have no idea.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:22:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 3:23:29 PM EST by zack-s]
Yep LR is long range. LC NM national match from M118 ammo. LC MATCH is from M852. I think.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 5:56:52 PM EST
OK, seems reasonable. It was the spacing between the L & C that got me to doubting. Thanks everyone.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 6:35:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 6:38:27 PM EST by ma96782]
STANDARDIZATION MARKINGS and MEANINGS
In August 1959, the NATO Department of Military Standardization published the NATO identification marking. The NATO identification mark is a cross within a circle. All types of ammunition standardized by NATO and adhering to the terms of the Standardization Agreement (STANAG) bears this mark, indicating that the cartridge in question is interoperable with others so marked. However, it cannot be stressed enough that this marking alone does not guarantee interchangeability. That is to say, a random selection of 7.62mm NATO cartridges from different manufacturers bearing the cross-within-circle marking will likely display equally random ballistic performance. Only the inclusion of an additional marking on the cartridge packaging in the form of a maltese cross or four leafed clover indicates that the ammunition is expected to provide identical ballistic performance. If the clover symbol is framed, this is an indication that the accessories contained within the packaging such as clips or links also correspond to designs approved by the STANAG.

Based on the existence of these two distinct markings, it is evident that there are at least two types of NATO 7.62mm military ammunition. The first, bearing only the cross-in-circle marking, will function in all 7.62mm rifles and machineguns fielded by NATO armies, but may or may not provide the expected ballistic performance. The second, bearing both markings, will not only function in all arms, but will provide the ballistic performance prescribed in the STANAG (a 147 +/- 3 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,750 +/- 50 feet per second). The picture is muddied further for the US consumer of surplus 7.62mm NATO ammunition by the fact that many nations produced three types of military 7.62x51mm cartridges:

Those with cross-in-circle markings on the cartridges and cloverleaf markings on the packaging;
Those with only cross-in-circle markings on the cartridges
Those with NATO standardization markings
Consequently it is all but impossible for a buyer on the surplus market to know which standard, if any, the 7.62x51mm ammunition he or she has purchased adheres to.


Taken from: http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-June01.html

And as for .223 Rem/5.56 mm..........

.....NATO specification rounds (those marked with the NATO "cross in circle" mark) may have thicker cases and are thus able to withstand stretching better when fired in loose chambered military weapons (done for reliability purposes).



For re-loaders.........it all doesn't really matter what a headstamp says other then knowing that it is from a certain mfn. Most consider brass by headstamp, year.....and lot # if they have a record of it. Then, some will also weigh each case.

How much effort you want to put into it........is your decision.

Aloha, Mark


Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:15:44 AM EST
but not all the LC brass(years) have the same head thicknes. for general shooting it dosen't matter that much, but if you want to make some match ammo i would sort by year.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:54:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:55:59 PM EST by redleg13a]
Some M193 (NOT XM193, mind you) did have the NATO cross on the headstamp. I have some with headstamps of LC 91, 92 and 93 and all have the NATO cross on it. We shot a lot of it in the Guard. It was packaged in steel ammo cans, in 20 round boxes, 820 rounds per can. No clue about the lot numbers as I tossed the boxes many moons ago when I put the ammo on strippers.

That being said, I have also found some 5.56 brass at Fort Leonard Wood that does not have the NATO cross. It is LC 06-08 I think.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:57:36 PM EST
What is the difference between the LC LR and the LC Match??
Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:56:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Some M193 (NOT XM193, mind you) did have the NATO cross on the headstamp. I have some with headstamps of LC 91, 92 and 93 and all have the NATO cross on it. We shot a lot of it in the Guard. It was packaged in steel ammo cans, in 20 round boxes, 820 rounds per can. No clue about the lot numbers as I tossed the boxes many moons ago when I put the ammo on strippers.


Yep. I have a buddy in Iraq who is a contractor. He saw some real M193 loaded in the Nato Cross brass.

Link Posted: 6/15/2009 5:56:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/15/2009 6:05:19 AM EST by ma96782]
What is the difference between the LC LR and the LC Match??


M118LR is updated (new /different commercial bullet maybe even a powder change) M118. The "intended use" is still there.

http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/762mm_ammo.html

http://www.amsd.ch/products/ammunitions/tm%2043-0001-27.pdf

Aloha, Mark


Link Posted: 6/15/2009 2:16:37 PM EST
Ahhhhhhh Thank you Mark for the links.
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