Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/11/2005 1:36:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 3:38:22 PM EDT by bones21]
Just a thought that popped into my head....

They have damn near every variant any man could want, but why no MSG90 clone ?

I dare not mention a PSG1 clone, the price would get too ridiculous too quick.

I'd pay 2000+ for a nice MSG90 clone.... that is, if it had MSG90 accuracy of course.

Just have the stocks and fore ends US made, slap on the receiver reinforcing rails,
add a nice trigger job and slip in a 23.62" match grade barrel ( for arguement's sake, a 24" barrel ).

I think they would sell. If JLD could make them in small production runs then they wouldn't be
hurting if they didn't sell many.

Maybe make 50 or so at a time.

Just thinking outloud, what do you guys think ?

-bones

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:46:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 2:46:24 PM EDT by Darkest2000]
A true MSG90/PSG1 requires a lot of engineering and tuning. So that may be what's keeping them from doing it.

I'm sure they can make a model that "looks" like a MSG90, but will it shoot like a real MGS90? That is the question.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:56:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:
A true MSG90/PSG1 requires a lot of engineering and tuning. So that may be what's keeping them from doing it.



Meh.

They should be doing it, dammit.

I'd gladly dump money onto a reasonable G3-SG1, MSG-90 or PSG-1 clone.

Most of the parts are available, build the damned things and tune them!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:33:35 PM EDT
No offense Darkest... but if the US can make a Helluva sniper rifle out of a Remington 700 for under a grand I see no reason why JLD couldn't make a very very accurate MSG90 or G3-SG1 clone.

Sure, most sniper rifles in the world are handpicked, but that is mainly for their barrels.

If the current PTR can pull off around ~2 MOA with say an 18" barrel, then I see no reason why a MSG90 clone with a 24" barrel, reinforcing rails and maybe a trunion extension couldn't pull off sub MOA accuracy.

That extra 6 inches alone would make a world of difference. It's all about the barrels and someone taking a little extra time in the assembly process. Oh and the trigger job would help a lot too.

I think it could be done for a very reasonable price.... and a lot cheaper than anything HK ever produced.

JLD can will you make a G3SG1 or MSG90 clone in the near future ?

If they did who on these boards would buy one ?

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:25:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 4:25:24 PM EDT by Darkest2000]

Originally Posted By bones21:
No offense Darkest... but if the US can make a Helluva sniper rifle out of a Remington 700 for under a grand I see no reason why JLD couldn't make a very very accurate MSG90 or G3-SG1 clone.



You're comparing a bolt gun to a semi automatic.

I think a fairer comparison would be a SR25. I doubt you can get that for under 1k

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a G3SG1/MSG90/PSG1 clone, but even if they do pull it off, I doubt it'll be anywhere near the price we're hoping to pay. Who knows.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:08:12 PM EDT
Yeah, you're right... my comparison was skewed a bit

I guess I was trying to say that the US can build a gun that rivals or equals a German engineered gun for a cheaper price.

The SR25 is a better comparison, but I am just not very fond of AR15 type .308s, even though the Stoner is a very nice rifle.

I know the Bushmaster .308s run around 1800 bucks, and last count I had the Stoners were around 3000+

Well we also have to look at this notion.... people are buying PTRs and tricking them out with HK -MSG90 stocks and various furniture and they are spending a premium price for the name. Yeah HK is quality, but still over priced for plastic IMO.

So people pay ~1G for a PTR and by the time they add a nice scope, change out the furniture, etc.... they will have a pretty penny in a clone that JLD could probably make for less if they wanted to. Probably not on par with the SR25, but pretty damn close I'd think.

But you're right Darkest, I'm not sure people would be willing to pay the extra green for it. After all it is a clone. I guess that is the main problem. Clones just don't have the name they deserve yet (and with good reason). JLD is gaining ground in the name of the clones though... but it may be a little while before someone would pay over 2 grand for a nice MSG90 clone

I think JLD has proven themselves very worthy, but I guess they are still kinda working a niche market.

Who knows, they are coming out with new stuff all the time... and maybe they are reading this right now

Time will tell.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:08:02 PM EDT
Better yet, How bout a quality HK94 clone!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:20:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 6:22:03 PM EDT by bones21]

Originally Posted By VLODPG:
Better yet, How bout a quality HK94 clone!



Hahahaha

You've obviously never read any of my posts regarding SW and ORF...

Making a quality 94 clone seems to be impossible to do. Maybe the Germans really are better than us

Just kidding, but no shit.... it does seem to be the hardest endeavor for the clone companies to do. Why it's so hard is beyond me...

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:24:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bones21:

.. it does seem to be the hardest endeavor for the clone companies to do. Why it's so hard is beyond me...



Ok then. How about an SP89 clone?

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:32:09 AM EDT
JLD could be making.

MSG90, G3 heavy, and HK21 buffers.

HK21 butt pads

and decent US stock parts.

JR
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:19:45 PM EDT
Stamping dies and polymer/"plastic" molds aren't cheap to create if you're going for US made parts. Plus the labor in tuning the rifle to the "sniper" level. Since you need to make back the cost of your tooling, those costs go into the price of the gun. It would take the reasonable price (hell of a good deal, even) for the PTR and make it priced such that not enough units are going to sell to make back the investment.

You'd need the barrel, forearm, the receiver stiffening rails, MSG90 stock, polymer trigger group, modified receiver, forward assist, modified internals for the forward assist, and some other bits that I'm likely forgetting. Ain't no parts kits floating around either.

Price it right, and I'd buy it of course, but it won't happen. Beautiful gun though. The PTR-91A1 is probably a close to the MSG90 as they are going to get.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 12:15:22 PM EDT
I think people need to remember that JLD has taken
a HUGE economic chance in producing the PTR.

Remember ,a change in politicians could wipe out
their busines with one stroke of a pen.

It could easily become illegal to make their own product .

Producing new things for this class of firearm is even
riskier than the usual business risk.

They may just make small variations on their basic
rifles for a few years,and see how things go.

2008 is coming up fast ,perhaps a few years of
succesful sales combined with a conservative
President winning the 08 election may cause many
firearm manufacturers to go with new ideas and
take more risks.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:14:13 PM EDT
Findsman, Cobrasks.... you both are right on the money.

I'm just tossing around the idea and seeing what you guys think... so far you guys are making a good arguement.

I do think that JLD could be making some various "stock" options though... that is pretty low risk, medium profit potential.

Not to mention that the many different stocks make the PTR look hella sweet and they are functional as well.... adjustable cheek weld and buttstock length, plus more cushion on certain models, etc...

Yeah... until we can get a little more stable in the gun rights area I think making stocks and fore arms are a better option to make available for customers.

Link Posted: 8/16/2005 8:53:56 AM EDT
A better comparison for the MSG-90/PSG-1 clone might be the SA M1A Supermatch, and those go for $2500 and up. I think PTR could make money at that price level. The handmade clones go for $4 -$5K and the real deal goes for $10K+. They could probably get a lot of 50 presold in a month if they made the announcement.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 1:20:12 PM EDT
I'd rather they make an HK33/HK93 clone before an MSG-90 clone...
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 6:59:31 PM EDT
I'd like for *someone* to make an in spec 93 clone. That'd be nice.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:49:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jtb33:
I'd rather they make an HK33/HK93 clone before an MSG-90 clone...



+2
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:23:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptainKevinDarling:
I'd like for *someone* to make an in spec 93 clone. That'd be nice.



What do you mean by "in spec"?

Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:44:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:

Originally Posted By CaptainKevinDarling:
I'd like for *someone* to make an in spec 93 clone. That'd be nice.



What do you mean by "in spec"?




...because Vector makes one using Speshul Weapons receivers...
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:46:29 AM EDT
So, other than the SW name, what's wrong with the Vector rifle? I've heard nothing but good things about the Vector stuff, so my saying that they're not "in spec" seems to allude to problems with them.

Educate me, please.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 9:12:22 AM EDT
There have been a number of people saying their Vector .223 have had
problems getting an ARMS mount to lock on. Others have said their
buttstocks were excessively tight when trying to remove them.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 9:32:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:
So, other than the SW name, what's wrong with the Vector rifle? I've heard nothing but good things about the Vector stuff, so my saying that they're not "in spec" seems to allude to problems with them.

Educate me, please.



I had a bare Vector receiver earlier this year that I planned to do a 33K build on, as I did not want to chop up my real HK93. Comparing the two, I came across the following:

Inconsistent receiver shell thickness: While the 93 receiver varied by a hair between different points, the Vector had as much as a 25% variance in thickness between sections of the receiver wall.

Insanely tight magwell: Could not get any mags, steel or aluminum to make it more than halfway into the magwell. These same mags would go into and out of my 93 smoothly.

Too tight rear section: Could not get a stock to go on, plastic, metal or collapsible. I have also heard of the inside of the receiver being so tight after actually getting a stock on that the bolt carrier will slow down in this area from binding.

Sloppy claw mount points: They *look* good, but they will not take a claw mount. This is with a bare, no finish receiver, I can't imagine how bad these problems would have been if the rifle was built.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 9:49:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 11:19:47 AM EDT by ian187]

Originally Posted By CaptainKevinDarling:

Originally Posted By kythri:
So, other than the SW name, what's wrong with the Vector rifle? I've heard nothing but good things about the Vector stuff, so my saying that they're not "in spec" seems to allude to problems with them.

Educate me, please.



I had a bare Vector receiver earlier this year that I planned to do a 33K build on, as I did not want to chop up my real HK93. Comparing the two, I came across the following:

Inconsistent receiver shell thickness: While the 93 receiver varied by a hair between different points, the Vector had as much as a 25% variance in thickness between sections of the receiver wall.

Insanely tight magwell: Could not get any mags, steel or aluminum to make it more than halfway into the magwell. These same mags would go into and out of my 93 smoothly.

Too tight rear section: Could not get a stock to go on, plastic, metal or collapsible. I have also heard of the inside of the receiver being so tight after actually getting a stock on that the bolt carrier will slow down in this area from binding.

Sloppy claw mount points: They *look* good, but they will not take a claw mount. This is with a bare, no finish receiver, I can't imagine how bad these problems would have been if the rifle was built.



I won't dispute you had problems but I can say I have not had the same experiences as you. My 33 kit went right into their receiver and looks and works great. I have not tried an ARMS mount but my receiver measures the same as my friends HK93.

I have, however, had few problems with Vector built guns but they never had a problem making them right. A simple phone call would likely get you another receiver, or gun, as the case may be.

ETA: For speeling.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 9:58:05 AM EDT
That being the case, it would mean there are gross quality control issues between receivers.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:18:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptainKevinDarling:
That being the case, it would mean there are gross quality control issues between receivers.



Define "gross," I've had a considerable amount of Vector guns pass through my hands and have only seen a few, as mentioned, that needed work. Also, as mentioned, Vector stands behind their work completely.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, and I probably will, but it seams to me that you had one bad experience and now you have an axe to grind. I did a quick search and found two pages of responses by you telling anyone who would listen about your ONE bad receiver. Here is a Link where no one was paying attention to you so you rephrased your earlier post to get a little exposure.

Again, I can confidently say that I have seen, touched, held, and shot more Vector products than most of the people on this board and the only thing "gross" is your exaggeration. While it is true that some lemons do get by, as with any manufacturer, Vector does a damn good job (which can not be said about most of the clone manufacturers out there) which is why you hear far more people with possitive than negative comments about them.

And I also think it is worth mentioning that DSA and Vector had the only large supply of HK33 kits. It may be possible but I doubt JLD will ever make an 93 receivers because of this.

Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:28:35 AM EDT
There are many people who've had Vectors with the same exact problems I've listed. You say I have an axe to grind. It's not like I start threads about the V93, I just respond to them.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:32:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2005 11:35:24 AM EDT by bones21]
I think the arguement is not directed towards Vector, because they do very nice work with what they have.

I think the problem stems from inconsistent quality control from SW... this is not news, nor should it be surprising to anyone here.

The fact is that Vector takes time to correct as many of the receiver problems as they can, thus making a very nice and economical alternative to HK.

Also, JLD is not in the business of making 93 receivers or clones, so please take this arguement/discussion elsewhere.

JLD makes PTRs, 91 clones.. and that is what this thread is about, JLD and delayed blowback sniper variations from HK.

So try to stay on track and not bring up all the shit that we all know about SW, ok

So far we have 30 votes for an MSG90 clone, JLD... 20 more and you could do a limited edition run of 50

ETA: This is not a thread about Vector or 93s.... so if anyone wants to argue this beaten to death topic, start another thread please. Not that I disagree with you kevin & company, but this is about JLD; read the thread title. Thanks.
Top Top