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Posted: 5/17/2020 2:30:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tlandoe07: I wasn’t home to sign for the package so I have to wait for Monday. That said, the return address is pretty straight forward. If I had to guess I’d say this is probably just going to be a way of life now. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/460535/F1C230D4-1931-41AD-B1E3-6F1DA199508C_jpe-1419032.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/460535/BA450793-9EDC-48E0-9DC2-B77814AA6A5A_jpe-1419033.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tlandoe07: Originally Posted By IAm4: Well tomorrow was yesturday, was it legit? @tlandoe07 I wasn’t home to sign for the package so I have to wait for Monday. That said, the return address is pretty straight forward. If I had to guess I’d say this is probably just going to be a way of life now. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/460535/F1C230D4-1931-41AD-B1E3-6F1DA199508C_jpe-1419032.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/460535/BA450793-9EDC-48E0-9DC2-B77814AA6A5A_jpe-1419033.JPG Yeah, I’m not holding my breath for any transparency in the industry. Sad really. What an amazing opportunity for folks to stand out from the competition. |
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Posted: 5/17/2020 3:09:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blackghost: It's "like" the ITT housing but a little different - the ITT has radiuses on the corners but yours has defined corners and edges. These are both ITT parts kits  
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Posted: 5/17/2020 3:45:28 PM EDT
[#3]
I have a carson housing and lenses if we need pics
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Posted: 5/17/2020 6:29:34 PM EDT
[#4]
I’m glad you brought this issue up, it is definitely very helpful. It sucks that UNV got dragged through the mud on this. Tyler and Rich are some of the most honest people I’ve ever dealt with, and I have had my fair share of bad deals, including the Lamneth deal. Because of my previous dealings, I’m not going to take your side on this one, Tyler is straighter than a buffalo’s dick, I think the best thing you could do is talk to him personally.
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Posted: 5/17/2020 6:45:12 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By norbs79: I’m glad you brought this issue up, it is definitely very helpful. It sucks that UNV got dragged through the mud on this. Tyler and Rich are some of the most honest people I’ve ever dealt with, and I have had my fair share of bad deals, including the Lamneth deal. Because of my previous dealings, I’m not going to take your side on this one, Tyler is straighter than a buffaloes dick, I think the best thing you could do is talk to him personally. There really isn’t a side to take on this one. Sub-par import glass has permeated the market and they sell it at the same price as quality glass. Turns out a lot of guys do. In fact, I’ve received it from three other vendors in the past month, either without their knowing the difference, or deliberately mis-advertised. That’s really all there is to say about it. To their credit, UNV took action to clarify the differences and give their customers the option on which glass they buy, which I think was a very stand up thing for them to do. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 7:19:05 AM EDT
[#6]
AGM is going to be flooding the market as many retailers also did big buy-ins to hit favorable pricing levels with the vendor. I wonder how many picked up things like housings that are a little faster moving, as opposed to some of the pre-assembled AGM monoculars and binoculars that have to be sold at MAP pricing.
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Posted: 5/18/2020 9:43:17 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ChandlerKJ: This. I've said it before and I'll say it again; I have never encountered an industry quite like the NVG one. While I don't want to use the word 'deception', there is a common occurrence of withholding of information, details and so forth that creates the impression of a smoke and mirrors like environment. That is magnified by the fact that more often than not, we are spending large sums of money on technology that is bought sight unseen. Lead times, soldering pigtails, assembly, origination of components; all ambiguous. I just don't get it. The industry is unlike anything else and keeps producing this type of thing. Absolute 100% transparency and forthcoming disclosure of all details, specs and facts about what we are purchasing would have ENORMOUS benefits for those vendors and dealers that would like to sell NVG. I'll spend more for full transparency than anything else. Interesting. I've encountered something similar with a different vendor. Not counterfeit parts, but transparency issues. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 11:10:11 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grn_zx6r: These are both ITT parts kits https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/176560/20200517_150159-1420362.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/176560/20200517_150230-1420363.jpg Look at this part in question - It's different then the ones in your pictures and I haven't ever handled one with a lanyard mounting point like this before  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 12:34:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Mine is a 10+ year old NEPVS14-17, with a housing that looks like the one on the left, with the lanyard holes built into the "vertical fence" in the housing. I ASSumed mine is legacy ITT?
On a related note, the front lens was a little different from the other -14's I'd used so I checked with Ed Wilcox and he found out it was an obscure navy contract part number that was an acceptable alternative. Couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it didn't seem quite as good as the normal contract part number. One of these days I'm gonna replace it. Guess I'd better be careful these days. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 12:49:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Diz: Mine is a 10+ year old NEPVS14-17, with a housing that looks like the one on the left, with the lanyard holes built into the "vertical fence" in the housing. I ASSumed mine is legacy ITT? On a related note, the front lens was a little different from the other -14's I'd used so I checked with Ed Wilcox and he found out it was an obscure navy contract part number that was an acceptable alternative. Couldn't quite put my finger on it, but it didn't seem quite as good as the normal contract part number. One of these days I'm gonna replace it. Guess I'd better be careful these days. The battery housing on the left is a Carson. Carson makes really good glass, their battery packs are okay. Nothing wrong with them, but they add some girth to the overall unit that isn't present in ITT and L3 battery housings. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 3:10:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By norbs79: I’m glad you brought this issue up, it is definitely very helpful. It sucks that UNV got dragged through the mud on this. Tyler and Rich are some of the most honest people I’ve ever dealt with, and I have had my fair share of bad deals, including the Lamneth deal. Because of my previous dealings, I’m not going to take your side on this one, Tyler is straighter than a buffaloes dick, I think the best thing you could do is talk to him personally. While I am glad you took a side...Not so long ago you called out TNVC that we were liars on another subject on our Industry forum. You took exception when I called you out on it. We don't lie to anyone, PERIOD. NO I didn't threaten to sue you either for libel or defamation. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 3:12:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chosos: AGM is going to be flooding the market as many retailers also did big buy-ins to hit favorable pricing levels with the vendor. I wonder how many picked up things like housings that are a little faster moving, as opposed to some of the pre-assembled AGM monoculars and binoculars that have to be sold at MAP pricing. That is their business model...ATN, Armasight, (buy out from FLIR, then fired) now AGM. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 3:33:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: While I am glad you took a side...Not so long ago you called out TNVC that we were liars on another subject on our Industry forum. You took exception when I called you out on it. We don't lie to anyone, PERIOD. NO I didn't threaten to sue you either for libel or defamation.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 4:30:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: While I am glad you took a side...Not so long ago you called out TNVC that we were liars on another subject on our Industry forum. You took exception when I called you out on it. We don't lie to anyone, PERIOD. NO I didn't threaten to sue you either for libel or defamation. I never once called you a liar, and I’ve never once assumed you were a liar. You came up with that all on your own. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 4:58:51 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my opinion, You threatening to sue just now will do more damage to your reputation than anything else said in this thread. Trying to sue your customers is usually bad for business. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes. These are not commercial optics from Optronics Engineering in Israel. These come from the same vendor in Singapore that has been producing optics that have been supplied to DoD in PVS-14 eyepieces for over a decade. Where does Qioptiq glass come from? Singapore. When I am in the office next week I will post the test sample report data to support it. There are some users on this site that should stop jumping to conclusions and publishing written false statements that could damage UNV's reputation. Just an FYI - we will do whatever we have to do to maintain our pristine reputation and that includes legal action against libel. I have worked very hard to build it. That is not a threat, it is just unfortunately what we have to do when people or companies defame our name whether by accident or for personal gain. Please just try and remember that there are people behind each handle and what you say and publish online can have real consequences. In my opinion, You threatening to sue just now will do more damage to your reputation than anything else said in this thread. Trying to sue your customers is usually bad for business. I know I'm less likely to deal w a company that sues people who disagree with them. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 5:08:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By norbs79: I never once called you a liar, and I’ve never once assumed you were a liar. You came up with that all on your own. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By norbs79: Originally Posted By TNVC: While I am glad you took a side...Not so long ago you called out TNVC that we were liars on another subject on our Industry forum. You took exception when I called you out on it. We don't lie to anyone, PERIOD. NO I didn't threaten to sue you either for libel or defamation. I never once called you a liar, and I’ve never once assumed you were a liar. You came up with that all on your own. Hmmm...You're are always so positive of yourself, I'll give you credit for that and who your favorite Vendors are. Maybe I should bring this back live to our Industry forums.  https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Our-findings-of-what-Photonis-tubes-do-and-don-t-do-with-real-testing/209-291318/?page=2 |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 6:45:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: Hmmm...You're are always so positive of yourself, I'll give you credit for that and who your favorite Vendors are. Maybe I should bring this back live to our Industry forums. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Our-findings-of-what-Photonis-tubes-do-and-don-t-do-with-real-testing/209-291318/?page=2 Show me where I called you a liar and I will humbly apologize. |
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Posted: 5/18/2020 7:04:17 PM EDT
[#18]
Ah so I do have a Carson, good to know. Something else I just noticed, on the ACME brand housing on the right, the power knob sits up quite a bit higher. Not sure if that is anything but it is a difference.
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Posted: 5/18/2020 7:41:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Man the list of companies I won’t buy from gets longer and longer everyday. I’ve never seen another industry like the NVG industry..
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Posted: 5/18/2020 9:59:45 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Honda4828: Man the list of companies I won’t buy from gets longer and longer everyday. I’ve never seen another industry like the NVG industry.. You can say that again. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 11:03:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By norbs79: Show me where I called you a liar and I will humbly apologize. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By norbs79: Originally Posted By TNVC: Hmmm...You're are always so positive of yourself, I'll give you credit for that and who your favorite Vendors are. Maybe I should bring this back live to our Industry forums. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Our-findings-of-what-Photonis-tubes-do-and-don-t-do-with-real-testing/209-291318/?page=2 Show me where I called you a liar and I will humbly apologize. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category.  |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 11:37:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sheepdog697: You can say that again. +1,000,000 I've lost count how many guys I've communicated with who are looking to save a little $ through a variety of different places for new devices that come with no spec sheets and/or incorrectly advertised minimums. Stuff like "Mil Spec Omni VII" but when you scroll down the minimum SNR is 22. You'll never know what you actually got because you didn't get a sheet. Also heard of guys receiving spec sheets that aren't the actual sheets provided from the manufacturer  . But don't worry because specs don't matter. I'm afraid there are a lot of dudes getting straight up hosed and that sucks big time. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 11:42:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By will-1: +1,000,000 I've lost count how many guys I've communicated with who are looking to save a little $ through a variety of different places for new devices that come with no spec sheets and/or incorrectly advertised minimums. Stuff like "Mil Spec Omni VII" but when you scroll down the minimum SNR is 22. You'll never know what you actually got because you didn't get a sheet. Also heard of guys receiving spec sheets that aren't the actual sheets provided from the manufacturer . But don't worry because specs don't matter. I'm afraid there are a lot of dudes getting straight up hosed and that sucks big time. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By will-1: Originally Posted By sheepdog697: You can say that again. +1,000,000 I've lost count how many guys I've communicated with who are looking to save a little $ through a variety of different places for new devices that come with no spec sheets and/or incorrectly advertised minimums. Stuff like "Mil Spec Omni VII" but when you scroll down the minimum SNR is 22. You'll never know what you actually got because you didn't get a sheet. Also heard of guys receiving spec sheets that aren't the actual sheets provided from the manufacturer . But don't worry because specs don't matter. I'm afraid there are a lot of dudes getting straight up hosed and that sucks big time. Many of the video's I've been putting out are due in large part to the predatory underhanded practices I have seen by many/most of our competitors in this industry. I want folks to be educated so they can ask the right questions and get their monies worth. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 11:55:05 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category. I don't think AGM's offerings would really fit well with the TNVC product lineup, or the caliber of customer you typically bring in. I figure if anything, that the less expensive AGM offerings might wind up at the NGI site, where it would fit that more budget conscious crowd. I really was not expecting any major retailer to pass off AGM housings and optics as Carson (or better) and it seems like supply and demand are creating some tough issues right now where some vendors are shipping out product that does not fully match or meet the same perceived quality as what is depicted on product pages. It sounds like this is happening with multiple vendors and it is great to see the vendors update pages to reflect any changes and to better inform the customers. I am glad to see this type of thread in the tech forum, because it absolutely is a tech thread and it is always good when the consumer has a better idea of what they are purchasing and why some of the optics cost more than others. For some of those users, they might be willing to save a few bucks by going with less expensive components. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:17:07 PM EDT
[#25]
Yeah I agree with the NGI statement, as long as it was up front on what the glass was.
Me personally I am cheap, I have lots of play money but thats why I am cheap. I could see myself buying cheaper lenses, but it would need to be more than a 10 or 20% difference. I rock sig romeos, holosuns and primary arms red dots, they are 75 to 90 % ( depending on who says it ) of an aimpoint for half the cost and have not had one die yet If I could buy a set of binos with cheaper lenses and save a few hundred bucks or more I would, but I would need to know upfront. OH I did, the agm50. it does what I need and want, and I have 2300 bucks in them. Just dont lie to me and try to sell me crap and call it quality. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:25:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chosos: I don't think AGM's offerings would really fit well with the TNVC product lineup, or the caliber of customer you typically bring in. I figure if anything, that the less expensive AGM offerings might wind up at the NGI site, where it would fit that more budget conscious crowd. I really was not expecting any major retailer to pass off AGM housings and optics as Carson (or better) and it seems like supply and demand are creating some tough issues right now where some vendors are shipping out product that does not fully match or meet the same perceived quality as what is depicted on product pages. It sounds like this is happening with multiple vendors and it is great to see the vendors update pages to reflect any changes and to better inform the customers. I am glad to see this type of thread in the tech forum, because it absolutely is a tech thread and it is always good when the consumer has a better idea of what they are purchasing and why some of the optics cost more than others. For some of those users, they might be willing to save a few bucks by going with less expensive components. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chosos: Originally Posted By TNVC: Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category. I don't think AGM's offerings would really fit well with the TNVC product lineup, or the caliber of customer you typically bring in. I figure if anything, that the less expensive AGM offerings might wind up at the NGI site, where it would fit that more budget conscious crowd. I really was not expecting any major retailer to pass off AGM housings and optics as Carson (or better) and it seems like supply and demand are creating some tough issues right now where some vendors are shipping out product that does not fully match or meet the same perceived quality as what is depicted on product pages. It sounds like this is happening with multiple vendors and it is great to see the vendors update pages to reflect any changes and to better inform the customers. I am glad to see this type of thread in the tech forum, because it absolutely is a tech thread and it is always good when the consumer has a better idea of what they are purchasing and why some of the optics cost more than others. For some of those users, they might be willing to save a few bucks by going with less expensive components. This thread has been very informational for me; someone who has never bought NV but going to make his first purchase. TNVC seems to be one of the only ones who is full blown as open as they can be. But I dont fault the issue that seems to have occured. Maybe the vendors supplier misled them and now they know they need to be more open with their own descriptions. It seems like more detail like place and country of origin would clear up a lot of assumptions that occur. Also a vendor saying they will sue someone has never sat well. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:26:57 PM EDT
[#27]
There isn’t another industry that I’m aware of that the general consumer is as uninformed as with night vision. Many people take advantage of that. Some don’t. It’s like the Wild West.
If you are buying night vision you probably have worked in a professional capacity and have preconceived notions of what’s right and wrong based on that experience. It’s pretty shocking to see some of the business tactics and unprofessionalism that go on in the NV world. It wouldn’t fly in many other settings. That’s a general statement and not pointed at this particular issue or any particular person. Just the industry as a whole. There are good guys out there. But all too often people are drawn to the cheapest option. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:27:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Depending on the price I’d still buy these for loaner units.
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:29:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By texassooner: Depending on the price I’d still buy these for loaner units. The price is the same as mil-spec glass... |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:30:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: Originally Posted By norbs79: Originally Posted By TNVC: Hmmm...You're are always so positive of yourself, I'll give you credit for that and who your favorite Vendors are. Maybe I should bring this back live to our Industry forums. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Our-findings-of-what-Photonis-tubes-do-and-don-t-do-with-real-testing/209-291318/?page=2 Show me where I called you a liar and I will humbly apologize. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category. I don't have a dog in the fight, but out of curiosity I clicked the archived link you shared. Here is the entire post you pasted in the link you shared. To leave out the rest of the sentence is disingenuous IMHO. I see nothing wrong with what norbs79 said. Quoted: @Lowdown3 Have you done any OOB testing with echo tubes? I would love to see some results. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore than I can take the Photonis sales reps word when I don’t know either one of them from Adam. I’m not trying to shit on anybody I’d just love to see some proof. I would be more than willing to build a OOB IR illuminator and donate it if somebody would be willing to do some honest testing and provide honest results. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:42:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC_Sam: Many of the video's I've been putting out are due in large part to the predatory underhanded practices I have seen by many/most of our competitors in this industry. I want folks to be educated so they can ask the right questions and get their monies worth. I've watched all your vids - good stuff! Kudos. I hate to see someone spend that kind of money when just for a little more they can buy something with almost certainly better overall specs, data sheets so they know what they're buying (and for resale), and warranties with better backing. Or quality used units with data sheets for about the same lower price. Receiving "custom" data sheets is the highest level of buttfuckery. Makes you wonder about edited sheets. @TNVC_Sam - I can show a cropped section of the sheet with the readings but no min/max, is that right? |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 12:52:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Custom, or non factory data sheets are about as valid as this
Pretty much the same as a "custom" data sheet |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 1:46:25 PM EDT
[#33]
What I'd really like to see, from perhaps OP and company, is an approximation of le difference here. Now that this issue has been exposed, the question is what is the difference in performance from these new vendors. For example, with this new glass, how does this effect PID at say 50-100m in field conditions. And I guess the 64 dollar question is what kind of tubes are you getting here, from the various vendors who are also selling this stuff. If you could quantify a difference in performance, of say 20% or whatever, then we could decide if we can use it. The second question would then be at what reduced price point should this stuff be sold, if in fact it performs less than our current std. Or by-pass vendors who refuse to discount. But to stay with tech, the issue becomes the usability of these new components. Is it good enough for night hunting, especially with active IR illum. Is it good enough for competition, mil sim, etc. Is it good enough for civvy self defense and in what scenarios.
Say what you want, but the only vendor that has addressed this is TNVC. They started a separate division expressly dedicated to those who might not require top level performance, but then gave you a second tier of pricing as well. Other vendors by ignorance or design, are selling you 2d tier goods at 1st tier pricing. And then come on here like Yosemite Sam with both guns blazing, ya varmints. And, as an added bonus, Augee is one of very few guys who has bothered to go outside, under field conditions, and attempt to show you these differences. Of course he gets mother-fucked for having an agenda. Damn TNVC just pimping their own shit, yo. But anyways, would be nice to see some performance differences illustrated here. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 1:54:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By texassooner: Depending on the price I’d still buy these for loaner units. Isnt the issue here is that these are of lesser quality yet its not only not stated but also priced at high quality equivalent pricing? |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:01:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Sharing information is what keeps vendors honest. The more the customer knows, the better they can make informed purchases. It's disappointing that several (likely many more) have purchased optics with sub-standard glass. Could most customers be able to tell the difference? Maybe not. Can most people tell the difference between a Vortex Razor and a Kahles glass? Maybe not.
In my day job (non-firearms-related engineer), I have the opportunity to tour many supplier facilities. There are many suppliers that prefer to not provide much details on their product. Some of them provide the minimal information and would rather keep the customer in the dark. The suppliers that willingly provide information, ISIR, and data are typically the ones that get approved on their first submission of 1st article inspection. These good suppliers are the ones that focus to educate their customers before and after the sale. I see this as a ‘hidden’ value to a supplier’s product. I see that hidden value with only one NV supplier... The post from 5/5/2020 9:59:42 PM EDT shows there is a difference between the two suppliers. I know which one I’d prefer to have with my $3000+ purchase. All this being said, I think threads like these are very valuable. Customer feedback/ analysis drives market forces which is an essential aspect to a free market. By informing other customers, it holds the suppliers accountable. Thanks again OP, for presenting this. I’m glad UNV made it right for you. Looks like the world is slightly more transparent because of all this. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:03:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Honda4828: I don't have a dog in the fight, but out of curiosity I clicked the archived link you shared. Here is the entire post you pasted in the link you shared. To leave out the rest of the sentence is disingenuous IMHO. I see nothing wrong with what norbs79 said. Originally Posted By norbs79: @Lowdown3 Have you done any OOB testing with echo tubes? I would love to see some results. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore than I can take the Photonis sales reps word when I don’t know either one of them from Adam. I’m not trying to shit on anybody I’d just love to see some proof. I would be more than willing to build a OOB IR illuminator and donate it if somebody would be willing to do some honest testing and provide honest results. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Honda4828: Originally Posted By TNVC: Originally Posted By norbs79: Originally Posted By TNVC: Hmmm...You're are always so positive of yourself, I'll give you credit for that and who your favorite Vendors are. Maybe I should bring this back live to our Industry forums. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Our-findings-of-what-Photonis-tubes-do-and-don-t-do-with-real-testing/209-291318/?page=2 Show me where I called you a liar and I will humbly apologize. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category. I don't have a dog in the fight, but out of curiosity I clicked the archived link you shared. Here is the entire post you pasted in the link you shared. To leave out the rest of the sentence is disingenuous IMHO. I see nothing wrong with what norbs79 said. Originally Posted By norbs79: @Lowdown3 Have you done any OOB testing with echo tubes? I would love to see some results. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore than I can take the Photonis sales reps word when I don’t know either one of them from Adam. I’m not trying to shit on anybody I’d just love to see some proof. I would be more than willing to build a OOB IR illuminator and donate it if somebody would be willing to do some honest testing and provide honest results. Wasn't trying to be disingenuous at all, thus why I posted the link for ALL to see to begin with!  . Nor will I ever fucking lie about anything when it comes down to testing gear but we get hammered when it goes against the troll and shill grains!  Augee has done OOB testing, look for it in the archives, but you cannot take my word for it anymore... In the end I was quite correct WHY I could not see the units in OOB because to see OOB with the Photonis tubes, you have throw a LOT of power for those tubes to be effective, something I never knew at the onset since this is a heavy marketing claim from Photonis and their dealers (who almost never even go out in the field to test the manufactures claims) without the fine print talking details how they really operate OOB. Class 1 OOB power does not cut the mustard. Even Photonis agrees with this and no I am not posting private emails from them period, but NO ONE talks about this aspect but I was not believed any longer when I posted my results period from another a select few around here. Gimmie a break and chalk it up to yet another bullshit claim and somehow fudged the numbers.
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:11:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Diz: What I'd really like to see, from perhaps OP and company, is an approximation of le difference here. Now that this issue has been exposed, the question is what is the difference in performance from these new vendors. For example, with this new glass, how does this effect PID at say 50-100m in field conditions. And I guess the 64 dollar question is what kind of tubes are you getting here, from the various vendors who are also selling this stuff. If you could quantify a difference in performance, of say 20% or whatever, then we could decide if we can use it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Diz: What I'd really like to see, from perhaps OP and company, is an approximation of le difference here. Now that this issue has been exposed, the question is what is the difference in performance from these new vendors. For example, with this new glass, how does this effect PID at say 50-100m in field conditions. And I guess the 64 dollar question is what kind of tubes are you getting here, from the various vendors who are also selling this stuff. If you could quantify a difference in performance, of say 20% or whatever, then we could decide if we can use it. Quantifying with an approximate percentage difference in performance would be difficult. I address this earlier in the thread by showing the edge distortion through the exact same goggle and tubes as compared to mil spec glass. The flaring that is present would occur regardless of the tubes you use, as would the edge distortion. As far as effects on resolution and light gathering, I'm not sure. The second question would then be at what reduced price point should this stuff be sold, if in fact it performs less than our current std. Or by-pass vendors who refuse to discount. But to stay with tech, the issue becomes the usability of these new components. Is it good enough for night hunting, especially with active IR illum. Is it good enough for competition, mil sim, etc. Is it good enough for civvy self defense and in what scenarios. I happen to have that information, but was asked to keep it confidential, so I will. Without going into specifics, the dealer cost of this stuff is substantially less than mil spec glass. By substantially, I mean anyone who found out how much the price difference was would be furious. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:22:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Diz: What I'd really like to see, from perhaps OP and company, is an approximation of le difference here. Now that this issue has been exposed, the question is what is the difference in performance from these new vendors. For example, with this new glass, how does this effect PID at say 50-100m in field conditions. And I guess the 64 dollar question is what kind of tubes are you getting here, from the various vendors who are also selling this stuff. If you could quantify a difference in performance, of say 20% or whatever, then we could decide if we can use it. The second question would then be at what reduced price point should this stuff be sold, if in fact it performs less than our current std. Or by-pass vendors who refuse to discount. But to stay with tech, the issue becomes the usability of these new components. Is it good enough for night hunting, especially with active IR illum. Is it good enough for competition, mil sim, etc. Is it good enough for civvy self defense and in what scenarios. Say what you want, but the only vendor that has addressed this is TNVC. They started a separate division expressly dedicated to those who might not require top level performance, but then gave you a second tier of pricing as well. Other vendors by ignorance or design, are selling you 2d tier goods at 1st tier pricing. And then come on here like Yosemite Sam with both guns blazing, ya varmints. And, as an added bonus, Augee is one of very few guys who has bothered to go outside, under field conditions, and attempt to show you these differences. Of course he gets mother-fucked for having an agenda. Damn TNVC just pimping their own shit, yo. But anyways, would be nice to see some performance differences illustrated here. Sounds like a rap record!  Seriously though (some very inside info here I am glad to share)...It was my decision to start a separate division for more affordable "commercial" NV gear and at that time there was a LOT of internal disagreements within my key staff members who wanted TNVC to sell it all under one roof and thought it was a waste time and resources to rev up NightGoggles. I knew we always had to keep TNVC to the upper top tier gear as our hardcore customers over many years have always come to us for this reason. With that said, there is still some core values NightGoggles lives by with their NV builds and we WON'T offer non Mil Spec glass in any of their PVS-14 and goggle builds, and yea as I've mentioned we've tested so much of the "other" glass out there. Some have mentioned it may be a good idea to offer some of this cheaper glass as long as NGI is up front about what the consumer is getting which I wholeheartedly agree about the transparency to sell what is on ones web site is what you get. In NGI's case, and for TNVC of course, the glass IS a KEY component for modern Gen 3 tubes and NGI's Echo line. Why would we sell a 64LP tube only to degrade that tubes performance by saving approx. $50-100 per EP to maximize profit and brag we have it in stock? Sorry we don't operate that way and I will take the MF'ing beating we take from a few on our wait times and use it as a marketing tool! At least our customers from both TNVC and NGI know what their getting. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:25:28 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: Wasn't trying to be disingenuous at all, thus why I posted the link for ALL to see to begin with! . Nor will I ever fucking lie about anything when it comes down to testing gear but we get hammered when it goes against the troll and shill grains! Augee has done OOB testing, look for it in the archives, but you cannot take my word for it anymore... In the end I was quite correct WHY I could not see the units in OOB because to see OOB with the Photonis tubes, you have throw a LOT of power for those tubes to be effective, something I never knew at the onset since this is a heavy marketing claim from Photonis and their dealers without the fine print talking details how they really operate OOB. Class 1 OOB power does not cut the mustard. Even Photonis agrees with this and no I am not posting private emails from them period, but NO ONE talks about this aspect but I was not believed any longer when I posted my results period from another a select few around here. Gimmie a break and chalk it up to yet another bullshit claim and somehow fudged the numbers. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TNVC: Originally Posted By Honda4828: Originally Posted By TNVC: Originally Posted By norbs79: Originally Posted By TNVC: Hmmm...You're are always so positive of yourself, I'll give you credit for that and who your favorite Vendors are. Maybe I should bring this back live to our Industry forums. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Our-findings-of-what-Photonis-tubes-do-and-don-t-do-with-real-testing/209-291318/?page=2 Show me where I called you a liar and I will humbly apologize. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category. I don't have a dog in the fight, but out of curiosity I clicked the archived link you shared. Here is the entire post you pasted in the link you shared. To leave out the rest of the sentence is disingenuous IMHO. I see nothing wrong with what norbs79 said. Originally Posted By norbs79: @Lowdown3 Have you done any OOB testing with echo tubes? I would love to see some results. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore than I can take the Photonis sales reps word when I don’t know either one of them from Adam. I’m not trying to shit on anybody I’d just love to see some proof. I would be more than willing to build a OOB IR illuminator and donate it if somebody would be willing to do some honest testing and provide honest results. Wasn't trying to be disingenuous at all, thus why I posted the link for ALL to see to begin with! . Nor will I ever fucking lie about anything when it comes down to testing gear but we get hammered when it goes against the troll and shill grains! Augee has done OOB testing, look for it in the archives, but you cannot take my word for it anymore... In the end I was quite correct WHY I could not see the units in OOB because to see OOB with the Photonis tubes, you have throw a LOT of power for those tubes to be effective, something I never knew at the onset since this is a heavy marketing claim from Photonis and their dealers without the fine print talking details how they really operate OOB. Class 1 OOB power does not cut the mustard. Even Photonis agrees with this and no I am not posting private emails from them period, but NO ONE talks about this aspect but I was not believed any longer when I posted my results period from another a select few around here. Gimmie a break and chalk it up to yet another bullshit claim and somehow fudged the numbers. Posting a quote with half the sentence missing was not a good look IHMO, as I believe the last part of the sentence tells a much different story. I believe you are still misreading what norbs79 wrote. I read it as he couldn't take Vics word as the gospel ANYMORE than he could take the Photonis sales reps word at the time, without seeing some proof. To me that means he couldn't believe one over the other without further proof or documentation, not that Vic was a Liar. Maybe @norbs79 can expound on this. Not everyone will blindly believe what someone says just because they said it. That does not mean the person who doesn't believe thinks that person is a liar, they would just like to see some proof. Again I see nothing wrong with what he said. Thanks to the OP for bringing the glass issue to light. It's a jungle out there in the NODS world. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:36:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Honda4828: Posting a quote with half the sentence missing was not a good look IHMO, as I believe the last part of the sentence tells a much different story. I believe you are still misreading what norbs79 wrote. I read it as he couldn't take Vics word as the gospel ANYMORE than he could take the Photonis sales reps word at the time, without seeing some proof. To me that means he couldn't believe one over the other without further proof or documentation, not that Vic was a Liar. Maybe @norbs79 can expound on this. Not everyone will blindly believe what someone says just because they said it. That does not mean the person who doesn't believe thinks that person is a liar, they would just like to see some proof. Again I see nothing wrong with what he said. Thanks to the OP for bringing the glass issue to light. It's a jungle out there in the NODS world. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Honda4828: Originally Posted By TNVC: Originally Posted By Honda4828: Originally Posted By TNVC: Originally Posted By norbs79: Originally Posted By TNVC: Hmmm...You're are always so positive of yourself, I'll give you credit for that and who your favorite Vendors are. Maybe I should bring this back live to our Industry forums. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Our-findings-of-what-Photonis-tubes-do-and-don-t-do-with-real-testing/209-291318/?page=2 Show me where I called you a liar and I will humbly apologize. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore... I don't need a stinkin' apology but you like to take sides around here. I started this NV forum many years so people can talk NV and the tech and have lost count the number of times we have gottened bashed about our products and our good name, countless times. But as I mentioned I don't plan on sueing you or anyone else for accusations on this Tech forum, we're just not that way and folks have a right to their opinion, just like you do as well as expect to get called out. Heck I was just alerted from my staff (back on topic somewhat) on another group blog posting that someone stated they were talking to the owner of AGM where he told them TNVC is using non Milspec Israeli housings and glass! LoL, must be Alan and the crew are not happy we're not buying from his wife! Yep we are presented with many such substitutes to test over the years and we look at most everything and TRUE Milspec is what our builds will always consist of, not Israeli, not Chinese etc. Last I checked Carson gear is doing quite well in the Milspec category. I don't have a dog in the fight, but out of curiosity I clicked the archived link you shared. Here is the entire post you pasted in the link you shared. To leave out the rest of the sentence is disingenuous IMHO. I see nothing wrong with what norbs79 said. Originally Posted By norbs79: @Lowdown3 Have you done any OOB testing with echo tubes? I would love to see some results. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore than I can take the Photonis sales reps word when I don’t know either one of them from Adam. I’m not trying to shit on anybody I’d just love to see some proof. I would be more than willing to build a OOB IR illuminator and donate it if somebody would be willing to do some honest testing and provide honest results. Wasn't trying to be disingenuous at all, thus why I posted the link for ALL to see to begin with! . Nor will I ever fucking lie about anything when it comes down to testing gear but we get hammered when it goes against the troll and shill grains! Augee has done OOB testing, look for it in the archives, but you cannot take my word for it anymore... In the end I was quite correct WHY I could not see the units in OOB because to see OOB with the Photonis tubes, you have throw a LOT of power for those tubes to be effective, something I never knew at the onset since this is a heavy marketing claim from Photonis and their dealers without the fine print talking details how they really operate OOB. Class 1 OOB power does not cut the mustard. Even Photonis agrees with this and no I am not posting private emails from them period, but NO ONE talks about this aspect but I was not believed any longer when I posted my results period from another a select few around here. Gimmie a break and chalk it up to yet another bullshit claim and somehow fudged the numbers. Posting a quote with half the sentence missing was not a good look IHMO, as I believe the last part of the sentence tells a much different story. I believe you are still misreading what norbs79 wrote. I read it as he couldn't take Vics word as the gospel ANYMORE than he could take the Photonis sales reps word at the time, without seeing some proof. To me that means he couldn't believe one over the other without further proof or documentation, not that Vic was a Liar. Maybe @norbs79 can expound on this. Not everyone will blindly believe what someone says just because they said it. That does not mean the person who doesn't believe thinks that person is a liar, they would just like to see some proof. Again I see nothing wrong with what he said. Thanks to the OP for bringing the glass issue to light. It's a jungle out there in the NODS world. Nobody EVER has to take my word as fucking gospel but the context written it was surely more than that, but really don't care nowadays. As stated started this damn forum awhile back so a few have the luxury of talking constant shit, but when they get called out, we're somehow wrong and get hammered to refute. Point is I got MF'd to death from a few because nobody challenged the BS fine details OOB claims to begin with, NO ONE! Augee followed up next and showed PICS what the OOB tubes were doing, then crickets. But I digress, sure damn glad this glass subject is coming up because it has plagued the industry for a LONG time. Sure glad TNVC didn't first report this substandard glass issue because DIZ's rap song quote I outlined above would have rung true! |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 2:41:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Trust but verify.
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Posted: 5/19/2020 3:06:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Well, that's the 64 dollar question here. If you put lower qual glass with a gen 2+ tube what does that look like. Lots of threads on here with guys looking for low cost options. If you want to build something like it's 1985 again, is that good enough for some? Remember Claskey's old tutorial on NV and target ID for law enforcement? This is still a classic in regards to what you can see with various Gens, and also what you need to see, in certain situations. The conclusion that good Gen III quality is the minimum std for someone trying to ID an unknown intruder in the dark. And having the time/space to deal with it. I think this still stands.
So fast forward back to today, where you have these various vendors selling substandard parts. Where would they fall in the spectrum of performance, as demonstrated in that exercise? IDing a guy in a basement or factory setting; finding a guy hiding under the wheels of a truck at a loading dock, or out in a field, on a moonless night. You could really see the difference good Gen III makes in those situations. Would these parts work as well? Judging from the pics I've seen, I'd say bu shi de, or nyet, as the case may be. Then why should you pay the same for them? Props again to the OP for bringing this out, getting threatened with a law suit, and standing his ground. Also honorable mention to when the Vendors were checking in with "it wasn't me's"; that was fucking funny. OK who shit the bed? TNVC: wasn't us boss; JRH: negative Ghostrider, stay in the pattern. So that leaves us with, uh, "the vendor who shall not be named". Classic. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 3:18:20 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Diz: Props again to the OP for bringing this out, getting threatened with a law suit, and standing his ground. 100% agree. Does anybody know if this has gotten traction in any of the FB groups, etc.? |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 3:34:31 PM EDT
[#44]
If I would not loose a bunch of money doing it I was tempted to buy a "lessor" unit and put my Carson lenses on it to see the difference then sell it. But at the risk of loosing several hundred bucks I wont do it.
And I think that is the issue here, as was said, we need more testing to quantify the difference, and this not being a cheap item its not easy. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 3:44:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FoxValleyTacDriver: In my opinion, You threatening to sue just now will do more damage to your reputation than anything else said in this thread. Trying to sue your customers is usually bad for business. Lol this times ten I just spent 20 k between thermal and nv this past week with someone else because of HIS OWN statements and attitude. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 3:47:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dace: Isnt the issue here is that these are of lesser quality yet its not only not stated but also priced at high quality equivalent pricing? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dace: Originally Posted By texassooner: Depending on the price I’d still buy these for loaner units. Isnt the issue here is that these are of lesser quality yet its not only not stated but also priced at high quality equivalent pricing? I don’t see people buying them for the same price going forward. But maybe I’m wrong. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 3:48:29 PM EDT
[#47]
And another issue is when someone bothers to do it, you get mother-fucked, threatened with lawsuits, and in general treated mean.
You have vendors trying to get the word out, but then they are accused of just pimping their wares. You have "independents" doing it, but then they get "big leagued" by other vendors (of the I do millions in sales and know way more than you variety). Then you have all these purse-slapping fights on the sides. It's a clown circus. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 4:00:14 PM EDT
[#48]
I'm gonna see what a soldering iron does to these tonight...
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Posted: 5/19/2020 4:10:55 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Diz: And another issue is when someone bothers to do it, you get mother-fucked, threatened with lawsuits, and in general treated mean. You have vendors trying to get the word out, but then they are accused of just pimping their wares. You have "independents" doing it, but then they get "big leagued" by other vendors (of the I do millions in sales and know way more than you variety). Then you have all these purse-slapping fights on the sides. It's a clown circus. Going to quote this as it needs to be emphasized. |
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Posted: 5/19/2020 4:39:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tlandoe07: I'm gonna see what a soldering iron does to these tonight... UMMM are we testing to confirm plastic vs glass..... |
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