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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/16/2002 9:42:48 PM EST
HANDGUNS MAKE POOR MANSTOPPERS (sorry for yelling but I feel much better now)

If you are expecting a self defense situation, bring a rifle, and one that shoots rifle bullets, not handgun bullets.

IMHO handguns should only be carried as a backup, or you're being backed up with a rifle, or you don't expect any problems.

Too many people fight and argue about the best manstopping round...9mm v .45 etc. In the realm of handgun velocities, it really doesn't matter much.

Police in the US carry handguns on their belts when dealing with the public because it's not PC to walk up to a traffic stop with an M4 strapped across your chest. (A few more stateside terrorist attacks might even change that, look at Israel's police)

"What about the shotgun?" you ask. Well, what you gain in energy, you also gain in recoil and lose in ammo capacity, penetration (in ballistic vests) and range (25-30yds max with 18" cyl bore 00 buck, 100 yds max with slug from the same gun) Shotguns penetrate construction materials more indoors than does the 5.56mm. The ONLY advantage to having a shotgun nowadays is the added less-lethal option of beanbag rounds.

"What about pistol caliber carbines?" you ask. While it will increase the hit potential at any range, you are still only firing a pistol round.

I love hadguns and have been shooting them since I was six. I love shotguns, same time shootin' them too... but if you are serious about protecting yourself with a firearm, bring a rifle (and a Glock for backup)

Thank you for you time. I welcome discussion from all points of view. Please no flaming though, I'm sensitive and have a fragile ego...my mom didn't hug me enough, or breast feed me long enough, or some other cheezy excuse.

Link Posted: 7/16/2002 9:53:50 PM EST
Uhhhh, I think somebody is a little tired. Take 8 hours of sleep and call us in the morning.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 9:59:32 PM EST
Sorry, is it just me, or do people harp about which handgun caliber is the better stopper?

Link Posted: 7/16/2002 10:29:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Scary:
Sorry, is it just me, or do people harp about which handgun caliber is the better stopper?






Hey, man, I'm with ya. I've heard that sometimes, some people discuss this.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 10:39:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2002 10:40:19 PM EST by Scary]
Thank you "IMHO"... now I can go to bed!

schapman43,
All I needed was a little understanding. You could have ended this a long time ago, but no. You're so insensitive.

(Wait a minute, who am I... my wife?)

good night
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 10:43:10 PM EST
Sure thing pal, I'll be sure to strap an M1A to my back every time I go out into public from now on.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 10:47:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Sure thing pal, I'll be sure to strap an M1A to my back every time I go out into public from now on.




I was thinking more like a M249 SAW.....


members.cox.net/wbarnett12/willie_m249.wmv
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:19:08 AM EST
You know with the 5.56 being framenting when it goes through walls, wouldnt it be a poor choice for shooting at someone behind cover? I think 7.62x39 would have been a better "assault" caliber. I think M-16 should have been in that caliber instead then maybe they wont have so much problem with too short of a barrel in a M4
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:31:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 2:31:37 AM EST by GodBlessTexas]

Originally Posted By Scary:
HANDGUNS MAKE POOR MANSTOPPERS (sorry for yelling but I feel much better now)



IT'S IMPRACTICAL TO CARRY A RILFE FOR SELF DEFENSE DAY TO DAY!

Sheesh... You realize most armed encounters where a handgun are used are at 21 feet or less?

If you never leave your house, then yeah, a rifle is great. If you plan on stepping out and interacting with the rest of the world, I'd rather have a pistol than nothing. And don't talk to me about the legalities of walking around with a loaded rifle in Texas, as I'm familiar with the statutes. It's just a disadvantage to be indentifiable as carrying by a predator from a tactical standpoint.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:31:26 AM EST
well DUH, but how do you attempt to conceal rifle for ccw? and how about 223 vs 7.62x39 or the 7.62x51 for good rifle rounds? lol
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:41:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:45:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 2:47:16 AM EST by PINGi3]
I don't know about you, but my concealed carry piece is a .416 Rigby!
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:58:49 AM EST
The purpose of a handgun is to give me the ability to fight my way back to my rifle.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:41:37 AM EST
"What about the shotgun?" you ask. Well, what you gain in energy, you also gain in recoil and lose in ammo capacity, penetration (in ballistic vests) and range (25-30yds max with 18" cyl bore 00 buck, 100 yds max with slug from the same gun) Shotguns penetrate construction materials more indoors than does the 5.56mm. The ONLY advantage to having a shotgun nowadays is the added less-lethal option of beanbag rounds.


If everyone is accounted for in my home, (which should be the case in any firearm situation) I want penetration, I want to blow walls down not put little holes through them.

Since I don't have SWAT gear, I ain't exposing myself to a intruder because of some law that says I have to feel my life was in immediate danger, I'll give proper warning and if no response from the intruder, the walls start crumbling down around him, fugem, I'll let the jury decide.


Life is (((MOOR GOODER))) where there are no FKN Amerikansky Demosucks to confound jurisprudence, and that's a fact.

Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:54:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
The purpose of a handgun is to give me the ability to fight my way back to my rifle.



Sorry, that's tatjana's line...
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 4:26:10 AM EST
Ponyboy is MOST correct. However that is a quote from Jeff Cooper. Give credit when due.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 4:51:57 PM EST
You seam to leave out pistol cal. like the 44mg.50 DE,454 cat. Some would call these man stoppers.


But a pistol is most allways a secondary back-up (no argument there).

Bob
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 2:15:15 AM EST

And don't talk to me about the legalities of walking around with a loaded rifle in Texas, as I'm familiar with the statutes.

Sure, you can walk around with one if you want. Expect police attention.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 2:39:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2002 2:40:03 AM EST by GodBlessTexas]

Originally Posted By GungHo:

And don't talk to me about the legalities of walking around with a loaded rifle in Texas, as I'm familiar with the statutes.

Sure, you can walk around with one if you want. Expect police attention.



The New Black Panther Party walked around a republican convention at the George R. Brown convention center downtown with loaded firearms, and they certainly were "threatening." They got lots of police attention, especially of the "one shot, one kill" variety, yet no one was arrested.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 2:51:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:35:20 AM EST
Scary seems to neglect the fact that most self defense situations seem to happen at the 7-10 yard range rather than the 100 yard distance. No need for a round that will generate huge amounts of stopping power at 100 yards- turn and run if the perp is that far away! Also- nothing will freeze a perp quicker than the sound of a 12 guage pump action being worked- Just my .02 If your choice is handgun- which is truly a whole lot easier to carry concealed than a Barrett- 357 mag, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, or 45 cal seem to be excellent choices.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:41:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By GungHo:

And don't talk to me about the legalities of walking around with a loaded rifle in Texas, as I'm familiar with the statutes.

Sure, you can walk around with one if you want. Expect police attention.


dang police
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 4:58:13 AM EST
While there is no question that, in the area of stopping power, a rifle will always have the advantage, they are not very practical for everyday carry. (actually, in OH, a handgun isn't either, but that's adifferent rant entirely...) If I had to defend myself from a potential attacker, I would not feel at all under-armed with my .357. A couple of hydroshoks will 'convince' anyone that I was a poor choice as a target. If the engagement is going to happen at rifle ranges, I'm just going to use it to get me some space to withdrawl behind cover to await the responce from the local authorities. Most of them have at least a couple cars equiped with rifles these days.

Indoors I'll take my shotgun anyday. You know the engagement ranges are going to be short, which is where the shotgun is devestating, given the right ammo.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 5:53:27 AM EST
Scary...I think every single member of this board understands that handgun rounds are inferior to rifle rounds in a self-defense situation. In fact, I have not ONCE heard anyone state otherwise.

THE REASON PEOPLE DISCUSS IT is because you are more likely to be using a pistol in self-defense than a rifle because of the fact of concealed-carry issues. We don't walk around with our AR's slung over our shoulder all day, but many carry pistols tucked under their shirts for self-defense or carry as a part of their LE duties.

Therefore, it would be NATURAL to discuss what would be best to discuss the best manstopping calibers/bullets/brands for those pistols. If you are going to carry a pistol...what should you carry?

I am not flaming you, but it sounds to me like you just took your first self-defense firearms class and got some good information that you wanted to share with us. Just think a bit about it first...I don't think anyone here disagrees with your comments on rifles vs. handguns.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:06:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Scary:
HANDGUNS MAKE POOR MANSTOPPERS (sorry for yelling but I feel much better now)

If you are expecting a self defense situation, bring a rifle, and one that shoots rifle bullets, not handgun bullets.

IMHO handguns should only be carried as a backup, or you're being backed up with a rifle, or you don't expect any problems.

Too many people fight and argue about the best manstopping round...9mm v .45 etc. In the realm of handgun velocities, it really doesn't matter much.

Police in the US carry handguns on their belts when dealing with the public because it's not PC to walk up to a traffic stop with an M4 strapped across your chest. (A few more stateside terrorist attacks might even change that, look at Israel's police)

"What about the shotgun?" you ask. Well, what you gain in energy, you also gain in recoil and lose in ammo capacity, penetration (in ballistic vests) and range (25-30yds max with 18" cyl bore 00 buck, 100 yds max with slug from the same gun) Shotguns penetrate construction materials more indoors than does the 5.56mm. The ONLY advantage to having a shotgun nowadays is the added less-lethal option of beanbag rounds.

"What about pistol caliber carbines?" you ask. While it will increase the hit potential at any range, you are still only firing a pistol round.

I love hadguns and have been shooting them since I was six. I love shotguns, same time shootin' them too... but if you are serious about protecting yourself with a firearm, bring a rifle (and a Glock for backup)

Thank you for you time. I welcome discussion from all points of view. Please no flaming though, I'm sensitive and have a fragile ego...my mom didn't hug me enough, or breast feed me long enough, or some other cheezy excuse.






I guess I find this part of the question to be the one most most-overlooked.

If I am expecting to encounter a self-defense situation where I might need a gun, I JUST DON'T GO THERE!

If you have the TIME to decide if you MIGHT need a rifle or you MIGHT need a pistol, you are much closer to murder than self-defense if you expect to use it.

Get a big bore pistol that you shoot well with and hopefully you won't need to use it =)



Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:27:32 AM EST
Scary,

Why don't you send a letter off to Hustler magazine and ask Larry Flint how he feels about the stopping power of the the 44 mag.

As for the Nato pistols that you are referring to, they were never designed to be a killing pistol. The round was designed to wound only. A wounded soldier causes manpower to be used on caring for the wounded, not fighting on the front lines.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:30:08 AM EST
Ok lets fight:

I guess you are right so today I went over to Birdman Weapons Systems. Anyway I finally bought a few CCW "rifles" and stuff to carry while "fighting with drunks on the side of the road". Here goes:

First I got this Barrett M82B1-P .50 BMG pistol: 15 lb., 10 rds of .50BMG, 3 MOA at 30 yards (get close). Nice shooter though. Light recoil. Got a special inside the pants holster (well women now ask me: "Is that a gun or are you just happy to see me?")

Next in case the SHTF I got this micronuclear ammo and the pistol to fire it. Great stuff. Take out a whole colony of gophers at 200 yards.

Finally I got this nice folding stock shorty with a custom grip and an M203 and some huge sight in case I need to shoot at something more than 300 yards away. Nice concealable package... if you stuff out your trenchcoat with pillow to look like Santa Claus. Good times...

SIG out,

The SIGer
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 6:32:07 AM EST
Hey guys. I finally found a holster for my carry piece, damn but, I feel much better being able to pack my M2HB on my side.

Give me a break, a handgun is the best carry piece for self-defense when you consider that most situations in which you need to defend your life happens within 21 ft. or less and even most of those are closer. Only a idiot would carry around a long gun for the purpose of self defense. And yes, there always has and always will be an arguement over which cailber is best for the purpose of self-defense but, you know that more people are killed by a .22 LR every year than anyother round. I personally don't like to carry any calibers other than 10mm or .45 ACP for self-defense but, the reason has nothing to do with stopping power, it has to do with what I am the most familiar with, am confortable shooting, have confidence in and practice with the most. What one carries for the purpose of defending one's own life is pretty much a personal choice and not having to do with some unrealistic view of what will stop someone. The true thing that determines wether an aggressor is stopped, is the ability of the person to actually hit what they are aimming at. Remember unless you actually hit your target I don't care what caliber you are using, with the exception of artillary pieces, you are not going to stop that person. So it actually boils down to the person's marksmanship and not the stopping power of the round.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 10:28:03 AM EST
Im diggin' on the pocket 50BMG! You gotta consider the price for a Kydex inside the pants holster? $500 to $1000 plus the counter weight you'll need on the otherside of your belt to even you out - I guess it could be an ammo pouch! The boys at NAVSPECWARCOM would buy a bunch!
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 10:39:33 AM EST
cz52 pistol with handloaded .223 sabots. 3100fps in a handgun with .223 bullet. Close enough to a rifle for you?

tbs
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:00:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Why don't you send a letter off to Hustler magazine and ask Larry Flint how he feels about the stopping power of the the 44 mag.


After that incident, his perpetual leer got a lot more creepy.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 9:40:38 AM EST
I dont know how big y'alls beds are, but i have a hard time sleeping with an M4 under my pillow. Handguns fit there better. My M4 lives behind my head leaning on the wall. It's also easier to move a handgun around inside of a vehicle.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 10:20:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By buffman:
Scary seems to neglect the fact that most self defense situations seem to happen at the 7-10 yard range rather than the 100 yard distance. No need for a round that will generate huge amounts of stopping power at 100 yards- turn and run if the perp is that far away! Also- nothing will freeze a perp quicker than the sound of a 12 guage pump action being worked- Just my .02 If your choice is handgun- which is truly a whole lot easier to carry concealed than a Barrett- 357 mag, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, or 45 cal seem to be excellent choices. hippie.gif



Scary thinks that the 7-10 yard range is EXACTLY where he would want massive amounts of stopping power!
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 10:26:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Scary,

Why don't you send a letter off to Hustler magazine and ask Larry Flint how he feels about the stopping power of the the 44 mag.

As for the Nato pistols that you are referring to, they were never designed to be a killing pistol. The round was designed to wound only. A wounded soldier causes manpower to be used on caring for the wounded, not fighting on the front lines.



I wouldn't want to get shot with anything... that's not my point. My point is the 44 mag is not the magic bullet that several believe that it is. You can miss just as fast with a 44mag as you can a .22. One shot stop is pipe dream with any projectile not placed into the central nervous system of the target.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 10:38:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate:

Originally Posted By Scary:
HANDGUNS MAKE POOR MANSTOPPERS (sorry for yelling but I feel much better now)

If you are expecting a self defense situation, bring a rifle, and one that shoots rifle bullets, not handgun bullets.





I guess I find this part of the question to be the one most most-overlooked.

If I am expecting to encounter a self-defense situation where I might need a gun, I JUST DON'T GO THERE!




Some people MUST go there! It's to those brave individuals that I'm referring to, Not to the everyday computer geek on his way to pick up a new driving game at the electronics store.

You highlighted the key to my entire point. Besides, my trenchcoat gets really hot in the summer and my Barrett drags my pants down when I run during my workouts.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 11:37:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2002 11:39:35 AM EST by SuperChicken]
Doggonit hit the nail on the head! I never leave the house without my M82BP-1 tucked into my belt. But for some reason...a pistol just doesnt make me feel safe anymore, which is why i have the M82B1K-PDW .50 BMG Entry Weapon under the back seat of my 4runner.


And on top of that, i have the GAU-8 Avenger 30mm cannon mounted on the roof of my 4runner, just to be safe.


i think that sums up my views on which caliber is best for defense....nothing smaller than .50BMG.



etided - durrr
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 11:43:23 AM EST
That avenger better be semi-auto, or you're in trouble buddy!!!
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 11:51:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Scary:
That avenger better be semi-auto, or you're in trouble buddy!!!



Notice that it has no bayonet lug? It's post-ban... don't worry.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 11:55:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Spearweasel:

Originally Posted By Scary:
That avenger better be semi-auto, or you're in trouble buddy!!!



Notice that it has no bayonet lug? It's post-ban... don't worry.



It should have seven bayonet lugs...and a battery backup!! That way you can stay in the fight when you run out of ammo!hainsawkill.gif
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 12:01:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Scary,

Why don't you send a letter off to Hustler magazine and ask Larry Flint how he feels about the stopping power of the the 44 mag.

As for the Nato pistols that you are referring to, they were never designed to be a killing pistol. The round was designed to wound only. A wounded soldier causes manpower to be used on caring for the wounded, not fighting on the front lines.



Oh I see. Now the 9mm and 45ACP is designed to wound also? I thought it was just the 5.56.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 12:09:57 PM EST
hmmm...the greatest percentage of LEO shootings happen at 8 ft or less, with a large percentage occuring at distances of 2-5 feet. Quite a few of those result in the perp going tits up. Seems to me that the handgun works just fine. As for me, Glock .40 cal works just fine. Oh yeah, as far as range, the only place where gun fights happen at distances of 35yards or greater is a place we like to call 'the movies.' Even combat vets will tell you that most firefights are at close distances.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 12:16:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By leo6223:
hmmm...the greatest percentage of LEO shootings happen at 8 ft or less, with a large percentage occuring at distances of 2-5 feet. Quite a few of those result in the perp going tits up. Seems to me that the handgun works just fine. As for me, Glock .40 cal works just fine. Oh yeah, as far as range, the only place where gun fights happen at distances of 35yards or greater is a place we like to call 'the movies.' Even combat vets will tell you that most firefights are at close distances.



That's why I had a bayonet lug put on my Glock 27!!!!!

Do you have an idea of the ratio of police shootings/killings with handguns? I suspect it is very heavy on the wounding side.

Over 65% of handgun rounds fired by police officers miss their intended targets! From 2-5 feet!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 5:11:52 AM EST
Scary,
You are definately right about the missed rounds. That comes from years of bad training. We in the LEO community are finally starting to realize that for what we do (combat shooting) point shooting is the way to go. I'm not saying to totally go away from aimed fired, but the truth is that most gunfights are over in 5 seconds or less (that includes the draw from the holster). So with the advent of LEO training on point shooting hopefully are round count inside bad guys will go up.
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