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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/25/2002 4:22:06 PM EST
I was bored today so thought I'd test out a few different hollow points that I had. I set up a 1 gallon milk jug of water infront of a cardboard box of sand.

1st I tried 4 40cal Golden Sabers. All 4 mushroomed properly.

2nd I tried 4 40cal Gold Dot. 3 mushroomed properly and 1 didn't mushroom at all. It didn't even change shape.

3rd I tried 6 357mag Federal Hydrashocks. 1 mushroomed properly, 1 completely fragmented, and 4 didn't do anything really. The tips kinda curled inward a little but that was it. They almost look like I tossed them at the target by hand..lol

4th I tried 4 9mm Black Talons. All 4 mushroomed properly. I have to say they look killer. I bet they would just shred you up pretty bad if you were shot by them.

Thats all the different types I had at the moment. I'll try some more later when I get some different kinds.

But I thought Federal Hydrashocks were supposed to be one of the best. I just wasn't impressed with them at all. Actually I'm really dissappointed in them.

Has anyone else tried doing this with different type ammo??

Link Posted: 7/25/2002 4:35:40 PM EST
Precisely why there are 20 Golden Sabers in my bedside handgun safe...
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 4:54:37 PM EST
There is a gunshow coming up August 10th and 11th that I'm going to. I'll buy a box of each different hollowpiont in 45 acp. That way it'll be better results using the same caliber.

I thought I'd collect a few different types of hollowpoints that were mushroomed just for the fun of it. Its kinda neat to see how they look after they are fired. I just wanted to see for myself after seeing them done this way in different gun magazines.

Plus I'm gonna build me a better setup to shoot them into. I'm gonna draw out a few ideas and see which one would be better to use. If anyone else has any ideas on how to set it up just let me know.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 4:55:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:00:51 PM EST
Try shooting yourself in the gut. The results will be more accurate.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:06:13 PM EST
A friend of mine tested a bunch of different loads (he was charged with finding a load/weapon for the local PD) in several different calibers using several different guns. His experiment was completely out of my realm of finance, but he came up with some really interesting results.

He tested the bullets using ballistic gelatin with clothes layered over the gelatin. The round that perfomred the best in .45 Auto and .357 Magnum (the two cartridges I use for defense) was the 230 grain Hydrashok and the 158 grain Hydrashok respectively.

The tests were a lot more complex than just ballistics testing because they involved stuff like felt recoil (using a cross-section of the cops in the town), accuracy in real world use, and ease of operation. The PD ended going with the Glock 22 even though the .40 didn't test anywhere near as well as some of the other cartridges. The Glock gave them the best overall results and was cheap (a HUGE factor for PDs).

Your test, while interesting, really isn't the most scientific.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:16:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:19:19 PM EST
There are many variables that account for how a bullet performs. First off though, milk jugs filled with water and sand doesn't give a really good account of how the bullets will perform in a self-defense situation. The 10% ballistic gelatin is the closest thing there is to simulate real flesh and should be used for all real tests.

I am not a tremendous fan of the Hydra-Shok bullet either. I think it is just over-rated. Sometimes the bullet expands really well and other times it does not. The Hydra-Shok design seems to vary in performance from caliber to caliber and bullet weight to bullet weight. This inconsistency has led me to choose different rounds for self defense.

In .40 S&W, my favorite round is the 180 gr Winchester Ranger Talon...which is very similar to the old Black Talon. This is a bit harder to find because Winchester only markets it to law enforcement. But some gun stores sell it to the public and it can often be found at guns shows as well. This ammo is not illegal for civilians to possess. My second favorite round is the Black Hills 180 gr which uses a Speer Gold Dot bullet. The Speer product itself is alright, but I find the Black Hills loads to be a bit more accurate for some reason or other. Remington Golden Saber and the Winchester Silvertips are also pretty good in this caliber.

For a look at some tests of various types of self defense ammo, go take a look at www.ammolab.com. This is a good page as it shows how bullets will perform after penetrating clothing, how much penetration they offer, how well they expand and etc. Most people don't have the money, knowledge and equipment to conduct their own ballistic tests and viewing these pages is very helpful to those individuals. Look for a round that penetrates at least 12", expands well even after penetrating clothing, and try to avoid anything that doesn't consistently expand well. Also, anything that penetrates more than 18" may not be a good thing, as that is starting to get into over-penetration range. There is another good site also, called firearmstactical.com if I remember correctly. Should give you some good, accurate info.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:26:48 PM EST
There is a new player in the field now. A full metal jacket bullet designed for controlled expansion. The tip of the jacket is hollow and the jacket is perforated so that when it impacts, the round accordions out while retaining all its mass.

In one test, a .45 acp round was fully expanded after passing through 1-1.5 inches of ballistic gelatin. Before burrowing into something else.

The round was designed to avoid the common problem with JHP's wherein the hollow point tends to get filled up with clothing preventing the hydrostatic action that is required to expand the bullet. Looks pretty cool.

Ammoman has them BTW.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:29:34 PM EST
I'm sure federal is anxiously awaiting your analysis. As is the hundreds of LE agencies who already use hydrashoks!
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:24:24 PM EST
Hey guys believe me, I know this is nowhere as scientific as the labs that have plenty of money and the best equipment. But I was just trying something out since I had nothing better to do today.

For those of you Hydrashock fans out there that love a bullet that only performs under perfectly controlled scientific conditions, thats fine. I hope you have good results with those bullets.

But if Golden Saber and Gold Dot both expand properly going through a milkjug full of water, don't you think a Hydrashock bullet should too??

Would you really want a bullet that only performs like it should under controlled conditions or would you rather have one that performs under any condition??

Oh and markm I can only do so much. If you'd like to offer any help at all, I'd be tickled to death to fire a few rounds in your worthless fat ass anytime to test out bullet expansion..LOL
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:35:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By NightHawk
For those of you Hydrashock fans out there that love a bullet that only performs under perfectly controlled scientific conditions, thats fine. I hope you have good results with those bullets.




Some of us have actually seen what hydra shoks can do to a human being. During the last 11 years we have had 7 officer involved shootings using Federal Hydra shok 230 Grn. .45 ACP. 5 were 1 shot kills, 1 was a 2 shot kill and 1 was a 1 shot stop. I know that a human being isn't a milk jug full of water but it's as scientific as we can get. Good luck shooting milk jugs and peoples legs or whatever you decide to test next time.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:39:15 PM EST
OK, here I go , one more time . Neighbor is FBI Special Agent .Was at autopsy where they cut out 6 40 cal Hydroshoks from the perp .ALL MUSHROOMED AS DESIGNED ,EVEN AFTER PASSING THRU BONE. These rounds were fired into a bank robber with 12 ga shotgun trying to kill Arizona DPS Officers . He lost . Neighbor also says HRT Team 45 cal Springfields use nothing but Golden Saber BONDED 230 gr hollowpoints. The weapons have to shoot 2" groups @ 50 yards with this ammo , so you know the Remington is accurate stuff ... That's is what is in my P-220 !
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:16:41 PM EST
I'm not saying that the Federal Hydrashocks wont stop or kill a man. I'm just wondering why it didn't expand in water like the other hollowpoints did??

Hell you can kill a man with a steel ballbearing and a slingshot. Its all about shot placement.

Suck a bee or Sukebe (however you pronounce it..lol) I'm willing to bet those were chest shots those officers killed those perps with. Just cause they were Hydrashocks don't mean they wouldn't have been killed just as easily with a full metal jacketed bullet.

To be honest I wouldn't want to be shot with a roundnose lead 22 cal bullet. I'm just saying that for some reason or other the Hydrashock's didn't perform as well as the other hollowpoints did in the exact same test.

True I wasn't using ballistic gelatine but the other hollowpoints performed just fine.

Isn't anyone curious as to why it didn't do like the others under the same conditions??
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:09:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By NightHawk:

Suck a bee or Sukebe (however you pronounce it..lol) I'm willing to bet those were chest shots those officers killed those perps with. Just cause they were Hydrashocks don't mean they wouldn't have been killed just as easily with a full metal jacketed bullet.



What are you trying to say, a Golden Saber or Black Talon or whatever your research told you is best when shot to the leg for example is better or more likely to kill someone than a hydra shok to the leg? After all if you shoot someone in the chest it really doesn't matter what you use according to your logic. So what is the point to your "research". Are you looking for the best round with which to shoot someone in any area of the body other than the chest? If you have to stop an attacker wouldn't it make sense to shoot for the torso(chest)? So if what you say is true why bother researching and buying any hollow point ammunition? Save your money and just buy cheap FMJ's. That's brilliant. If that little bit of info ever gets out it will mean the end of hollow point ammunition. Nobody will want it. I really think your on to something.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:27:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By NightHawk:

Suck a bee or Sukebe (however you pronounce it..lol) I'm willing to bet those were chest shots those officers killed those perps with. Just cause they were Hydrashocks don't mean they wouldn't have been killed just as easily with a full metal jacketed bullet.



What are you trying to say, a Golden Saber or Black Talon or whatever your research told you is best when shot to the leg for example is better or more likely to kill someone than a hydra shok to the leg? After all if you shoot someone in the chest it really doesn't matter what you use according to your logic. So what is the point to your "research". Are you looking for the best round with which to shoot someone in any area of the body other than the chest? If you have to stop an attacker wouldn't it make sense to shoot for the torso(chest)? So if what you say is true why bother researching and buying any hollow point ammunition? Save your money and just buy cheap FMJ's. That's brilliant. If that little bit of info ever gets out it will mean the end of hollow point ammunition. Nobody will want it. I really think your on to something.



Read the ENTIRE post slick. I said I was bored and didn't have anything else to do. I also said I was just curious as to why it didn't expand in the water like the others did. Thats all I was trying to say.

Instead of running your mouth about the petty things, why don't you answer why is didn't perform the same as the others. Since your so intelligent I'm sure you know the answer.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:31:08 PM EST
I love them,I had a AD in my house and the round shoot in to the big box I keep o\all the VHS tapes in.
Got 4 chick flicks and a pot my mother-in-law got us that was so nas-tee! I could not put the thing out or the dog would puke!

Thank you Hydrashocks
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:50:19 PM EST
I can vouch for the Hydroshock !

I used to deer hunt with a handgun only. I chose the Federal Hydroshock 240 grain. I bagged my first buck with that bullet.

I wanted to recover the bullet so bad to see how it performed !

When cleaning the deer I was probing around the entrance wound and cut my finger on a jagged piece of copper jacket. I ended up pulling ALOT of jagged pieces from the entrance wound. I could not believe that the bullet had expanded so quickly in such a short distance. Like someone earlier mentioned, about 1 - 1 1/2" into the shoulder.

Their was no exit wound but I could not find the bullet when we gutted the deer. I hit it in the front shoulder and broke the bone there. Blew a huge setion out of the heart. Jellied a lung and pierced a hole through the stomach. But I still could not find the bullet.

Late that evening when my brother-in-law was helping me skin the deer out. We had just started skinning the hind quarters when I heard something hit the conrete floor...

It was the bullet !

It had traveled from the front shoulder to the hind leg diagonally through the deer !! It had exited the muscle and was just under the skin of the hind quarter.

Dont let your jug test fool ya... the Hydroshok is a awesome expander !
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 9:18:21 PM EST
NightHawk - Thanks for taking the time to post the info. Got a good thread going. I appreciate it.
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 5:40:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By NightHawk:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By NightHawk:

Suck a bee or Sukebe (however you pronounce it..lol) I'm willing to bet those were chest shots those officers killed those perps with. Just cause they were Hydrashocks don't mean they wouldn't have been killed just as easily with a full metal jacketed bullet.



What are you trying to say, a Golden Saber or Black Talon or whatever your research told you is best when shot to the leg for example is better or more likely to kill someone than a hydra shok to the leg? After all if you shoot someone in the chest it really doesn't matter what you use according to your logic. So what is the point to your "research". Are you looking for the best round with which to shoot someone in any area of the body other than the chest? If you have to stop an attacker wouldn't it make sense to shoot for the torso(chest)? So if what you say is true why bother researching and buying any hollow point ammunition? Save your money and just buy cheap FMJ's. That's brilliant. If that little bit of info ever gets out it will mean the end of hollow point ammunition. Nobody will want it. I really think your on to something.



Read the ENTIRE post slick. I said I was bored and didn't have anything else to do. I also said I was just curious as to why it didn't expand in the water like the others did. Thats all I was trying to say.

Instead of running your mouth about the petty things, why don't you answer why is didn't perform the same as the others. Since your so intelligent I'm sure you know the answer.



Thanks for clarifying. I get it now. With your test results I really can't answer why the Hydra shok didn't expand like the others. However, it is logical to conclude that if you're planning on being forced to engage hostile water in plastic jugs with a sand back stop, the Hydra Shok might not be the best choice. If you happen to carry a load intended for humans it's a pretty good choice. But I suppose as you said, an FMJ is just as good.
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 6:59:54 AM EST
What a bunch of hard asses. You guys cut him some slack. He did an interesting experiment and made no claims to being scientific. I though it was an interesting post. Anyone here can find geletin tests that support their favorite "magic" bullet. As for the 45, it's effectiveness was established LONG before any hollowpoint ammo was available for it, Hydrashok or otherwise.
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 7:49:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
What a bunch of hard asses. You guys cut him some slack. He did an interesting experiment and made no claims to being scientific. I though it was an interesting post. Anyone here can find geletin tests that support their favorite "magic" bullet. As for the 45, it's effectiveness was established LONG before any hollowpoint ammo was available for it, Hydrashok or otherwise.



Hey man thanks for noticing what this post was all about. Its all about being bored and trying something new. I was only curious, thats it.

I've seen you around on the HS2000 forum. I've tried to register over there a couple of times but for some reason it says I can't. Something about my computer and cookies, I have no clue. I noticed that you have a XD pistol too. They are fine guns aren't they? I love mine. Happy shooting buddy.
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 8:18:59 AM EST
This is just my opinion based on some anecdotal exposure to GSW...

1) A bullet that expands too easily does not necessarily cause a lethal wound...

2) Expanding bullets don't always act as intended in real life.. The law of averages suggests that if you shoot and hit the bad guy a whole bunch of times, at least one bullet will work as intended.

3) The best hollow point in the world doesn't do any harm if it doesn't hit the BG.

4) Bigger and faster count with bullets... a .22 cal will stop you if a vital area is struck, but a bigger or faster bullet will stop better in more circumstances.

I would select caliber and pistol based on:

-application
-accuracy
-killing quality of round in general

I have a Kahr K9 (9mmP) and a Glock 23 (.40 cal)
because I can shoot both fast and accurately.. a 45 would be more lethal, but they are too big and unwieldy for me to be proficient with. Only hits count.

I load my K9 with hydroshock (I believe it is 115 gr)
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 9:11:11 AM EST
You all know what I'm gonna say... USE A RIFLE WITH RIFLE BULLETS!!!!

Other than that, I though it was a very interesting post. Nothing wrong with backyard ballistics.

Neener Neener Neener, don't be so up tight.
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 9:29:57 AM EST
If you want something a bit more scientific, use a pork shoulder roast. Pork is very similar to human flesh, and it will give you a much better idea as to how a bullet will behave in a real world situation without having to shoot someone.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 9:36:32 AM EST
The Hyrdra-Shoks are old technology, and are being superceded by much better bullets, at least if you believe Doc Roberts in his comment here:

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000005.html


Resources for *very real* information about bullet wounding capacity are here:


Firearms Tactical:

www.firearmstactical.com/

The Ammo Lab (as mentioned above):

www.ammolab.com


Tactical forums "The Terminal Effects Forum"- where some of the best in the business post (DocGKR):

64.177.53.248/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=The+Terminal+Effects+Forum&number=78&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=

I'm sure someone there can explain why water isn't the best medium to test bullet expansion and penetration.


HTH
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 9:40:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By NightHawk:
I'm not saying that the Federal Hydrashocks wont stop or kill a man. I'm just wondering why it didn't expand in water like the other hollowpoints did??

Isn't anyone curious as to why it didn't do like the others under the same conditions??



Back in the old days when I used to ride motorcycles on a daily basis, there were two competing standards for motorcycle helmets. The Snell standard was tested at a higher energy level than the other (Motorcycle Safety Foundation?), and hence was made of stiffer, harder foam.

Dummy testing showed that, AT SLOW SPEED, the potential for injury (concussion) was GREATER with the SNELL approved helmet, than the softer foam helmets made to the lesser standard.

Of course, at REALLY dangerous speeds, the low-rent helmets split open, and the uncovered foam cracked and split, leaving the wearer's head to splatter like a stomped melon.

So, there were design trade-offs, choices made to make it do one thing J*U*S*T right. Couldn't do both at once, conflicting design goals.

Hydrashocks may be designed to work effectively with a higher density fluid, not with water. Bullets that upset, deform and otherwise expand well in water MAY NOT work as reliably in people.

If we WERE curious, how would we find out, short of shoveling many thousands of dollars into the hands of a ballistics laboratory owner, or some sort of Dr. Mengele-like experiment on actual humans?

Speculation is fascinating, don't you think?
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 10:41:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 11:20:15 AM EST
troy, i keep hearing this 3rd, 4th generation, etc thing.
could you explain a little more for me as to the differences?
thanks, dude.
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 11:24:10 AM EST
I was looking for something to do one day too so I shot some Federal expanding full metal jackets into some wet phone books. Every one of them expanded well. Have you tried some of these Troy? What are the pros/cons to these rounds?
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 11:35:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By NightHawk:

I've seen you around on the HS2000 forum. I've tried to register over there a couple of times but for some reason it says I can't. Something about my computer and cookies, I have no clue. I noticed that you have a XD pistol too. They are fine guns aren't they? I love mine. Happy shooting buddy.



Yep, the HS/XD is a great pistol. Hope you get signed up at the forum. It's a cool place to hang out. Later, ips
Link Posted: 7/26/2002 11:45:37 AM EST
I think ballistic gellatin is overrated. I've found blastin water jugs to be much more satisfying. Pop cans are almost as good.
As far as practicing shot placement, Ballistic gelatin is not superior to paper in any scientific, peer reviewed journal.
Now for a consistant medium in which to test bullet penetration and expansion, then it only has to be a substance agreed upon and standardized. Who remembers the soaked phonebooks?
Bullet makers are designing bullets that have better results in the gel, than in things living, skinned, boned, muscled, blood and guts covered in denim and pumped up on adrenalin. Thats just the way it is. Untill a gel block can include for all the varying densities, potential increase in bullets capacity based on results fired in is theoretical. Sure I have Hydras: 230 in the .45, 125+p+ in the 9. But I can but a hardball in the same place I can put a hollowpoint so I'm not counting on the expansion to get a job done anyway.
Ps perhaps the lack of velocity was the reason for for the poor expansion, what barrel were you using?
Lebrew
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 6:40:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By quietshoez:
troy, i keep hearing this 3rd, 4th generation, etc thing.
could you explain a little more for me as to the differences?
thanks, dude.



I too would like to know what the differences are, besides the obvious chronological differences.

Could you give us examples of which bullets are where in the "Generation" hierarchy?
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