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Posted: 3/2/2002 9:20:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2002 9:29:23 AM EDT by Dominus]
I want to learn more about the use and action of AR15 rifles but... I don't have access to any AR15 rifles, and I don't want to purchase one for quite some time.

I'm currently 19, living off and on between school and home, and owning an AR15 would be impractical, as well as prohibitively expensive. However, I would like to be able to get some hands on experience in the use of the AR15, and am especially interested in its firing mechanism. I do not know anyone who owns one locally, and therefore I can't ask to use/strip one while under their direct supervision (persons in Canada without firearms licenses can fire a rifle belonging to someone else, as long as they are under the directand constant supervision of the weapons licensed owner).

You can now see my predicament: I'm a firearm enthusiast without access to firearms.

After having scoured the internet, I found a video from the Armalite website which describes the XM16E1 nicely, and shows its cycle of operation. The video features a replica rifle with several cutaway sections which show its barrel, gas tube, bolt/bolt carrier, bolt locking lugs, magazine spring & follower, action spring assembly, etc. This rifle, though it contains all the parts and mechanisms of a working XM16E1, cannot be fired (safely, anyway), and cannot be mistaken for a real rifle (therefore, not a true replica or immitation firearm). Are these sorts of devices available to the public, and are they legal in Canada? If not, how can I learn more about firearms, namely AR10/15 style action, assuming that I have no physical access to them?

Access to a physical model of an AR15 would be best for me, assuming that the model can be in no way, shape or form, construed for a real firearm, or have upper or lower receivers that could ever be modified to be usable. See-through plastic or glass receivers (both upper and lower) would not just be acceptable, but would be ideal.

In summation, are non-firing, model firearms, similar to the instructional mockup used in this video(c\o Armalite) available to the general Canadian public, and if so, where can they be purchased? This discussion will be moot, of course, if the cost of such a model is greater than or equal to the cost of a new rifle, or can only be purchased by the holder of a prohibited firearms license.

Thank you for your time and patience,

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 10:54:15 AM EDT
Join the ARMY (Or Mounties...whatever). They will teach you everything you want to khow. Then move to the US, you can even join the National Guard while still being a Canadian citizen....eh?

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:02:15 AM EDT
IIRC the cutaway firearms I have seen for sale (very rare) have been much more expensive than the real thing. I will try to locate decent online sources for you.

Welcome to AR15.com
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:09:54 AM EDT
what would fit the bill exactly for you would be one of those giant plastic display M16A1's the US military used to use for classrooms in basic training. The parts all function, they are cut away to show how it works and they definately ain't a gun. I've seen them in surplus stores but they aren't cheap. I'll ask a friend who runs a store if he knows where one could be found.

They also came with plastic dummy rounds that were about the same size as a 50 BMG round!
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:10:52 AM EDT
Actually, I plan on immigrating to the states to join the USMC once I get my Bachelors (may sound crazy, but that's what I want to do). The model firearm would give me a chance to get at least some familiarity with AR15 style automatics beforehand.

I've never fired a weapon in my life. It's incredibly hard to do so in my locale without breaking at least some law, and I certainly don't want any firearms related offences on my record, since I plan on immigrating. Any such offences would also prohibit me from becoming an officer, should I so attempt to do so (ECP).


What I ask may seem silly to a forum full of gun owners, but please keep in mind that firearms and their use in Canada are far more closely regulated than those of the USA. For Christ's sake, I can't even carry a fork if I say it's for self defense, let alone a firearm.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:26:36 AM EDT
Welcome Dominus. Does your school have an ROTC unit or the Canadian equivalent?
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:32:08 AM EDT
No, my high school had no affiliation with the military. I believe that the University I will be attending does, but I want nothing to do with the joke that is the Canadian military.

I respect its service members, but not the politicians that manage it and direct it. It is a waste of money in its current role, and needs either sweeping reforms, or a complete change of mission to that of a pure national defense force.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:41:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2002 11:44:49 AM EDT by Stormbringer]
Where in Canada are you?

I am sure we can find someone who can get you some trigger time behind a AR.

I am personally in the process of building one from parts with my son.

I am in Ontario.

edited to remind our young friend that it is the Federal Government that is at fault not the military. The Canadian army has a very long and distinguished history.

They currently use C7 versions of the M16 built in Kitchener Ontario by Diemaco.

If you are in school you should joing the reserves as a part time job. You get training and get paid.....

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:45:15 AM EDT
Is self defense with a weapon a crime in Canada?

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:48:01 AM EDT

But some would like it to be.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 12:02:49 PM EDT

I agree with you 100%. I have had several close family members serve in the Canadian military, and all have impressed me with their sense of duty and their professionalism. The Canadian military fought very effectively and efficiently in both world wars, and the Korean conflict. Today, however, we maintain equipment that we cannot deploy, and we lack the ability to assist our allies properly in those times we do chose to deploy our forces. This is not the fault of the military, as you have pointed out. Notice that I said the following in my previous post:

"I respect its service members, but not the politicians that manage it and direct it."

As for my location, I live in Central Newfoundland. The nearest dedicated hunting store is some 300km away, and I'm not even certain that there is a rifle range within 100km. There is one professional gunsmith in the provice, as far as I know, and he's located some 500km+ away.


Self defense isn't a crime, but possessing a weapon for the sole purpose of defense, even within your own home, can be considered a crime, regardless of what that weapon is.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 12:21:02 PM EDT
Here in the states, at least, just about anybody can legally own a complete AR-15 EXCEPT for the lower receiver. Essentially, the lower, which contains the serial number, is considered the firearm; everything else is parts.

(Possibly I should exclude California from this statement since, well, California just tends to be different!)

Assuming this is also true in Canada, you could get a mail order kit, minus lower, and use it to learn many of the ins-and-outs of an AR. If a kit is too expensive, you could consider surplus parts or even junk parts.

There might be members here with unserviceable parts that they would let go of for very little. However, getting those parts into Canada might be a problem.

You might even be able to track down a legally deactivated receiver to use for reference purposes – though I admit I’ve never seen one for sale.

The nice thing about getting a decent kit is that, at a later point in time, you could add a lower and have a real AR!
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 12:47:49 PM EDT
Wow a Newfie!!

Ok I take it back.....I do not know any gun owners out there.


199 is correct however it is EASY to get parts up from the states...just make certain to insure the package.

You can buy EVERYTHING except the lower....then you can buy the lower in Canada..

That is what I did........but I started with the lower first. ( $325 CDN)

You should buy a Ruger 10/22 or an SKS and start shooting now.

Which school are you going to?
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 12:51:22 PM EDT
It is my understanding, from the definition of a firearm from the Firearms Act, that both the upper and lower receivers are considered firearms. I cannot possess either without a prohibited weapons license.

A quote from the Weapons Classes document of the Canadian Firearms Act:

A firearm is one of the following:

1. The frame or receiver of a firearm. In general, the frame or receiver of a firearm is the section of the firearm containing the firing and breech mechanism. It is the section of the firearm to which the barrel and stock are attached.
2. Anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm. In order for such an object to be considered a firearm, it must be capable of being adapted for use as a firearm within a reasonable amount of time. What is considered to be reasonable will depend upon the nature of the offence involved - R. v. Covin and Covin, (1983) 11 S.C.R. 725, or
3. A weapon having all of the following three features:
Feature 1
It is a barrelled weapon. That is, it has a tube from which a projectile can be discharged. The tube does not have to be made out of metal. Therefore, a firearm need not take the form of a conventional gun.

Feature 2
It is capable of discharging a projectile. A projectile is any object which is projected forward through the air such as a shot, or a bullet. For the purposes of most Criminal Code offences, it is not necessary for the projectile to achieve a minimum velocity in order for the weapon to be considered a firearm, if the weapon is used in the commission of an offence. On the other hand, if the projectile does not reach a certain speed (152.4m per second or 500 feet per second), the weapon will not be considered a firearm under the Firearms Act, and will therefore not require a licence, registration certificate or authorization.

Feature 3
It is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person.

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 12:55:30 PM EDT

I'll be going to the University of Waterloo in September, in the Applied Mathematics program.

I have no idea if there are any ranges in the immediate area, and I'm near certain that firearms are not allowed on campus. If I did plan on purchasing a rifle, I would have to find somewhere off campus to store it.

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 1:29:52 PM EDT
This is a little different than what you are looking for, but it might help. Awhile back, there was an X-ray of a complete AR posted on the Delphi forums Florida Highpower board. It certainly shows how the parts interact.

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 1:30:42 PM EDT
First of all to correct you.

Only the LOWER hald of the AR is considered to be the reciever..

They have to make it only ONE part per gun that is considered the gun. On ARs its the lower.

Imagine the troubles you would have if Both halves were and then ou started to mix and matchem???

Waterloo eh??/

Well consider your problems solved. I happen to live just 15 minute away. I am a member of two ranges in the area ( one is building a 350m range).

I have a somewhat expansive collection.....ok so some guys have me way beat but I do hold my own...

I would be pleased to let you use mine....you just have to pay for the ammo..
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 1:45:24 PM EDT

That's great. I've no problem paying for ammo (I don't hold a license, however, so I can't purchase it myself). I'll certainly take you up on your offer, if you're willing, and assuming we stay in touch.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 2:08:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2002 2:35:30 PM EDT by Stormbringer]
I can buy it as long as you recoup the costs....

I teach our clubs junior program and am an IPSC range officer so you will be in good hands.

Send me an email and we can see about the details.

Link Posted: 3/3/2002 9:18:55 AM EDT
I think part of the problem is that you Canadians talk in Kilometers instead of miles. That alone will screw up any country

Link Posted: 3/3/2002 5:46:47 PM EDT

Or don't send me an email....

oh Sgtar....

Have trouble working with decimals???

Link Posted: 3/3/2002 6:12:59 PM EDT
I'm sorry.

I didn't read the last line of that post.

I'm composing an email now.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 6:22:03 PM EDT
Wow I just watched that video you linked to in Armalite's site. If you come away with anything from having watched that I hope its having seen how not to handle a rifle. The soldier holding the gun had his finger glued to the trigger every possible instant during the demonstration. Surely the principles of gun safety haven't changed since that film was made, what were they thinking making a training video like that.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 8:34:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dominus:
Actually, I plan on immigrating to the states to join the USMC once I get my Bachelors (may sound crazy, but that's what I want to do). The model firearm would give me a chance to get at least some familiarity with AR15 style automatics beforehand.

I've never fired a weapon in my life.

Actually, I wouldn't worry too much about the amount of firearms experience. In fact, I've heard that instructors prefer a willing student who has never been exposed to firearms rather than someone who has learned bad habits over time. Their training programs (ESPECIALLY the Marines) will turn you into a marksman by the numbers.

That being said, it never hurts to get some extra time on the range. Especially with someone experienced.

Viper Out
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