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Posted: 9/8/2004 5:11:10 PM EST
I've been yearning for a .308 for a while, and finally decided a FAL is for me. Unfortunately money will be an issue. I've been over to FalFiles, registered and spent a lot of time that I should have been studying trying to figure things out. Admittedly the quantity of info is intimidating. So, from looking around I've kind of decided that I want an isreali version. I like the idea of a forward assist and I like the idea of wood furniture. I'll probably use it for blasting at the range and if I shoot well with it a few combat rifle matches and perhaps bambi hunting.

I can't afford a new DSA, though if I sell something I could probably come up with the scratch for a STG58A. (I've got a CZ452 I'll probably be selling anyway) But it's plastic furniture and no forward assist.

So if I wanted to build an Isreali version with a 21" barrel. Where should I start? I've gleaned that Imbel and DSA are the best recievers? Coonan? Pluses minuses to both? Should I then try and find a parts kit? Any guides I should find to help with the build? Anyone I should call?

I've built two AR's, but would I be better off to have someone else assemble the rifle?

Thanks,
Wolffie
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 5:22:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 7:00:55 PM EST
Cool, I'll make some calls and at least get the reciever in the works. Then I'll need to work on the parts kit.

Does anyone know the plusses or minuses of the light barrel vs. heavy barrel for the Isreali pattern FAL's?
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 2:46:55 AM EST
ammunitionstore.com Has some decent south afrcan parts kits right now for cheap. (realitivly speaking , of course)
Be sure to check out the hometown forums here and on the falfiles, you may be able to find someone who can help you put your fal together. Then again, if you wanted to spend the money on the tool, it wouldnt be wasted. i thought i was only gonna build one myself......that was barely a year ago and I've built four so far.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 2:55:59 AM EST
Yup... get some local help and build it yourself. It really is easy.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 4:32:55 AM EST
Those parts kits look pretty nice. The refinished ones could save me a lot of trouble if they are done well. How difficult would it be to swap out some isreali furniture and the bolt assembly for the ones in the kit? Are they substanially different?
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 5:45:06 AM EST
Read this post on those kits before you dive in. There is a lot of variation in the condition though Rob proved himself to be a good guy and stands behind his product.

Ammunitionstore Rhodesian Kits

Here is the link to the refinished kits with pictures. My one concern about refinished kits is that it seems like the worst ones are always chosen for refinishing. You should get them at a slight discount if you purchase them through this thread rather than from the store.

Refinished Kits

If you want, a guy on FAL Files is selling an IMBEL kit that looks like it is in nice condition. I was interested in purchasing it but can't now due to the fact that I just bought a Belgian kit that rarely is available. He sent me a lot of pics. If you wan't I can pass them on with his email adsress. PM me if you are interested.

I hope this helps. Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:29:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By wolffie:
Those parts kits look pretty nice. The refinished ones could save me a lot of trouble if they are done well. How difficult would it be to swap out some isreali furniture and the bolt assembly for the ones in the kit? Are they substanially different?



Izzy light barrel furnature will swap out without modification. An Izzy HB hand guard will require some effort. Bolt carriers are interchangable.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 12:24:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

Originally Posted By wolffie:
Those parts kits look pretty nice. The refinished ones could save me a lot of trouble if they are done well. How difficult would it be to swap out some isreali furniture and the bolt assembly for the ones in the kit? Are they substanially different?



Izzy light barrel furnature will swap out without modification. An Izzy HB hand guard will require some effort. Bolt carriers are interchangable.



Cool, so I could just buy an imbel kit, plus, a set of Izzy light barrel furniture, an Isreali bolt and charging handle, and make a pseudo Izzy? I found that Tapco has US made Isreali pattern bolt components. Is tapco pretty good? Kind of spendy but not compared to a top quality AR-15 equivilent.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 12:46:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 1:07:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 1:10:06 PM EST by wolffie]

Originally Posted By MickeyMouse:
To each his own, but I HATE forward assists. My M-16 & AR have them and I NEVER use them and feel doing so merely would jamb things worse. Not good if you are defending your life.....

I like the option of a forward assist. I've had a few instances where I (admittedly stupid) eased the bolt forward on an AR, or the slide on a 1911 and the case didn't slam home. The AR allowed me to push it forward with the FA, and on the 1911 I could just tap the slide. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it.

TAPCO - I know nothing of their copy izzy carriers. HAven't bought anything since the dust-up between Buddy 7 Jen. Suit yourself.

Fill me in, what is this? I'm just looking for compliance parts where I can find them.

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 1:12:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 1:17:04 PM EST by FALna45]
+1 for skipping the f/a....
just personal preference mind you but not once in about 10K rds thru my SA58 & homebrewed frankenshorty have i wished for a forward assist.
DO get the izzy mag release tho. they're nice and just $10
the IZZY HGs are very very nice to use, especially if you like blastin briskly thru a few mags w/o a chicken mitt

Originally Posted By wolffie: I'm just looking for compliance parts where I can find them.


DSA HTS, piston, charging handle 5
coonan rcvr 6
us pg 7
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 1:24:16 PM EST
Sorry for the stupid question what are: DSA HTS, US PG?

I already ordered the Imbel Reciever... Would Coonan be better? I could probably cancel the order in the moring.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 1:55:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By wolffie:
Sorry for the stupid question what are: DSA HTS, US PG?

I already ordered the Imbel Reciever... Would Coonan be better? I could probably cancel the order in the moring.



Hammer, Trigger Sear set made by DS Arms and a US made Pistol Grip.

I'm partial to Coonan, but Imbel is fine too. The Coonan is a US part though.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 3:46:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By MickeyMouse:
To each his own, but I HATE forward assists. My M-16 & AR have them and I NEVER use them and feel doing so merely would jamb things worse. Not good if you are defending your life.....

TAPCO - I know nothing of their copy izzy carriers. HAven't bought anything since the dust-up between Buddy 7 Jen. Suit yourself.



I second that, forward assists are a waste of time, especially for a semi auto rifle. Tapco makes junk, you don't need that Tapco bolt carrier. Use the Imbel carrier you get with the kit, that will be the best carrier you can get. That is a great deal on those kits from Ammuntionstore.com. It's been a long time since I've seen $150 Imbel kits. I believe those rifles were all Imbel production, I don't think FN made many parts for SA, I could be wrong. I may get one of those kits, maybe chrome lined barrels too.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 4:25:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 4:25:42 PM EST by wolffie]
Thanks for all the help. My account at FalFiles hasn't been activated yet so I'm depending on you guys.

I think I've come up with a plan:

The Ammunitionstore kits look pretty good, although Enterprise is advertising Imbel kits in "excellent" condition too. I'm guessing I'd probably get a better bore with the Imbel, so I'll probably go that route. I need to call and check on availablility but I'm assuming it'll be worth the extra money for the imbel in NRA Excellent condition?

Then I'll see about a DSA HTS kit, piston and charging handle, and a pistol grip (is there a US made wood pistol grip?). Will I need another US part? Maybe a gas tube? I'll scrap the forward assist at least for now.

Finally, I'll pick up a set of Isreali Furniture either from Gunthings.com or Sarco.

That should get me "close enough" to the Isreali style for now. I can upgrade part by part later.

Anyone know of any "issues" with this plan?

What are the "must have" books for this kind of project?

Thanks again,
Wolffie
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 4:47:32 AM EST
i don't believe entreprise actually has any kits to sell tho they advertise them. may be wrong about that tho....

if you already have the imbel receiver coming, perhaps you could find a nice US made muzzle device to compliment the handsome izzy furniture, completing your count also.

the FAL book by Blake Stevens is THE FAL book IMO.
a great reference for building is GUNPLUMBERS GUIDE
good stuff on his 'notes' page too.

CLIFFY...aren't you the one with the SWEET izzy carbine w/ short stoll? let's see it if so!
would bonecrusher's FH qualify as US made? hmm
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 2:24:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 2:25:33 PM EST by wolffie]
Well you are correct, I contacted Enterprise and they're kits are currently awaiting ATF approval. Appearantly they've been that way for a year.

The guy on FalFiles is waiting to hear back from someone who was interested in his Imbel kit.

I want to start out with a quality barrel. Soooo... Would I be better off buying a kit from DSA at 295. Or buying one of the ammunition store kits for 149 and having a new barrel put on. I'd probably buy a DSA standard profile barrel.. Is the gas block something I could fit myself? Then I'd have another US made part....
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:28:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:42:49 AM EST
FSE metric sets are almost impossible to find anymore and not currently manufactured. Also many people, including me, have had trouble with FSE sets causing "double taps" possibly due to poor heat treating. The owner has been silent on the issue.

It looks like right now you wither go with DSA, century, or if you can find it a used FSE set.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 9:18:25 AM EST
Quality on the DSA kits is awesome. There is one issue to consider though. Many (not all) of the STG kits have a short gas tube. That makes for easy cleaning and assembly, but it doesn't do so well with the Izzy handguards. You'll have an exposed gas piston. Not much you can do either because the gas tube is silver soldered in place.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:50:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By cliffy109:
Quality on the DSA kits is awesome. There is one issue to consider though. Many (not all) of the STG kits have a short gas tube. That makes for easy cleaning and assembly, but it doesn't do so well with the Izzy handguards. You'll have an exposed gas piston. Not much you can do either because the gas tube is silver soldered in place.




Interesting. So with the DSA STG the handguards cover the piston, but since the IZZY style handguards are open on top the piston is exposed to the elements? Is there a way around this?

It seems as though I may just have to bite the bullet and drop the coin on a DSA kit, they seem to be the best ones out there. Gunthings.com has South African kits with "very good" bores. Are the SA kits any good? They're a hundred bucks cheaper. Would they work better with Izzy handguards?

Perhaps I should call DSA and see if there is a way of getting a hand picked kit with a long gas tube?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:34:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By wolffie:

Originally Posted By cliffy109:
Quality on the DSA kits is awesome. There is one issue to consider though. Many (not all) of the STG kits have a short gas tube. That makes for easy cleaning and assembly, but it doesn't do so well with the Izzy handguards. You'll have an exposed gas piston. Not much you can do either because the gas tube is silver soldered in place.




Interesting. So with the DSA STG the handguards cover the piston, but since the IZZY style handguards are open on top the piston is exposed to the elements? Is there a way around this?

It seems as though I may just have to bite the bullet and drop the coin on a DSA kit, they seem to be the best ones out there. Gunthings.com has South African kits with "very good" bores. Are the SA kits any good? They're a hundred bucks cheaper. Would they work better with Izzy handguards?

Perhaps I should call DSA and see if there is a way of getting a hand picked kit with a long gas tube?




What Cliffy is saying is that there are two types of metric gas tubes, long and short. FN originally made like 20k STG58's for Austria prior to Steyr production. Those STG58's have the long gas tube that extends from the gas block to the receiver. The short gas tube was adopted later to ease in cleaning. The short tubes are soldered in, the long tubes were threaded and pinned. I have seen many Fred Flinstone types destroy their gas block and tube from trying to force the tube off without removing the drift pin in the front of the tube. Israeli FAL's always had the long tube, so that is what you will see exposed with the Izzy handguards. Capiche?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 1:07:15 PM EST
Well it would seem that my problem is solved. Though I may have wussed out.

I'm buying this:

fal

I may go ahead and get the receiver, you know... just in case. But, I'd likely have a lot more moola wrapped up into a build than I will trading a rifle with Lee. If he ever sells anything else, I will vouch for him. Though, I've not seen the rifle in person yet, he seems like a good guy.

Cheers,
Wolffie
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 2:22:57 PM EST
That's a good looking rifle and should be worth the money. ARS is tops in building so you shouldn't ahve any issues with it.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:49:22 PM EST
Got my rifle today, and damn it's sexy. Now, assuming Ivan leaves us alone, I'll go play with it tomorrow.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:09:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By FALna45:
CLIFFY...aren't you the one with the SWEET izzy carbine w/ short stoll? let's see it if so!
would bonecrusher's FH qualify as US made? hmm



Is this the one your talking about?




Well, that WAS mine. I sold it in preparation for the demise of the AWB. (AR money)

You were correct in associationg Cliffy with it however, I bought the rec. from him and he helped me build it. (As he has with ALL of my FAL's) Cliffy used to have an izzy of much bigger proportions. Maybe he has a pic.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 4:52:29 PM EST
Wolffie:
You didn't wuss out. That is a fine looking rifle. If you do go ahead and get the IMBEL receiver, I would advise you to get an StG58 kit from DSA while they are still available. Also get an StG58 front end from DSA. Stash them until you are ready to build. You will not be disappointed. ( unless you ignore my advice )
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