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Posted: 12/7/2016 3:39:47 PM EST
I have a Winchester Ranger 140. I know it is an older gun and I inherited it from my older brother who passed away. I have used it for several years now and everything worked great until the last year or so. As long as I am using high brass and heavy loads, the shotgun ejects the shells and reloads as it should. Occasionally I may have a FTE which then leads to a failure to reload (as semi auto's should operate). The real problem is when I want to do bird shot or even target loads for skeet or I am shooting low brass. The bolt doesn't carry back all the way, doesn't eject the shell, or it opens and closes so quickly that the shell brass is caught inside the receiver with the bolt closed on it. I am not sure what could be causing this. Now here are the steps that I have taken to fix it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 3:40:35 PM EST
1. I have stripped and cleaned the internals with a gun oil.
2. I have had a few parts changed out (ejector bar, etc.).
3. I have had two different people at two of my local gun stores, who also do gun repairs, take it apart and clean and look through the inside (this helped a little, but still having some issue).
4. I have read several different threads and looked on this one to find an answer and couldn't
5. I have sought out from the company itself and they sent me to a third party who then wanted me to send it in
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 3:41:27 PM EST
So now, here I am trying to get this working. Again, I know that it is an older gun and maybe it is time for me to move up to something newer. While I would love to just run out and get a new one the cost is prohibitive for me at the time. I have put about $100 dollars into it and I just need a better direction where to go. I will not be getting rid of it because of sentimental reasons, but if I need to start working and saving for another one I guess that will be what I have to do. If there is something else that I can look at, then I want to take that route. Thanks for your help and I look forward to any advice. Thanks.

P.S. I know this is in three parts, but I only have 2000 character limit. Sorry.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 10:52:13 AM EST
I had an old "Ted Williams" shotgun which is Winchester that had similar problems. it never functioned properly with low brass shells regardless of the manufacturer. I took it to the gunsmith to get some insight as to the problem and all they could recommend was to shoot the high brass shells or to try some "good quality" low brass and hope for the best. I wound up buying a Mec 650 reloader and making my own loads ever since with no failures or problems regardless of shot size, though the loads had to be hotter loads than most low cost "low brass" shells.

short of making your own loads I would stick with the better quality loads and stay away from the special purchases out there(cheap stuff). hope this helps some.

Bruce
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 12:17:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 5:13:57 PM EST
Thank you both for your help on this. I have just a couple more questions to make sure that I know what I am doing.

First, what would be considered "high quality"? Right now I am using Federal, but if need be I am willing to buy better.

Second, I will take a look at the breech, the piston and the and gas system (I am assuming the gas system includes the breech). What would be the best way to clean the ports? Would just a damp cloth and then re-oil it, or is there something special to use?  

Third, looking at the breakdown of the 140, would the gas system be the Piston and the Piston pin? If that, what else?

thank you all for your help. I really appreciate it.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 8:05:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 9:43:07 PM EST
Great! I will get to that asap! I really do appreciate it! As far as I remember, the last time that I shot it, the shells looked good. I do see some marks, but I believe that comes from the ejector itself. I was told that was normal, and it is what I see from my other firearms. Is this normal?
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 10:19:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 11:29:43 AM EST
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Originally Posted By AeroE:
Your link is messed up.
View Quote
I didn't even realize that it turned into a link. Sorry, that was not the intention there.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 11:42:53 AM EST
I'd recommend Hotter shellsfor your semi-auto.

Are you shooting skeet, trap, dove, quail or ??

I've seen better luck shooting Remington Heavy Dove Loads (which is 1 1/8 or 1 1/4) Oz load Vs. standard 1 oz load for my brother & nephew's semi autos

My son & I shoot pumps because they cycle everything from lightest 2 3/4 to stoutest 3.5" mags...
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 11:14:18 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jarem08:
Thank you both for your help on this. I have just a couple more questions to make sure that I know what I am doing.

First, what would be considered "high quality"? Right now I am using Federal, but if need be I am willing to buy better.
View Quote

I would use Remington and get the heavier loads. using the lighter loads doesn't allow the bolt to fully cycle much like an AR that's underpressured, imo. don't hold me to this, I just know the heavier and hotter loads always functioned in mine over the light loads.

Bruce
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:37:50 PM EST
Right now I am mainly shooting skeet and trap. I know it is a broad range, but my gun has worked out great for both purposes . I will try to find the Heavy Dove Loads next time I am in town (It is 30 minutes one way for me to just get to town !) Maybe the hotter loads will work better.

That is one thing I love the most over semi-autos. Pumps cycle whatever you put into them! I would assume the Dove Loads would also be able to double as skeet loads as well?

Thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:41:18 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By devildogandboy:

I would use Remington and get the heavier loads. using the lighter loads doesn't allow the bolt to fully cycle much like an AR that's underpressured, imo. don't hold me to this, I just know the heavier and hotter loads always functioned in mine over the light loads.

Bruce
View Quote

Maybe that is my problem. Maybe the loads are too light. Maybe the fact that the brass is high or low doesn't really have that much of a bearing on it? I am going to try to break down the shotgun today and see what I find per instructed from above as well. But again, the gun is old, so if it becomes just a sentimental memento, I have had fun with it. I just need to look at getting a newer gun.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 12:49:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
I'd recommend Hotter shellsfor your semi-auto.
View Quote

The other option, I am not sure if I want to really get into it for the fact that I don't shoot enough shotgun shells to make it profitable for me, is to reload. I believe it is vastly different than reloading pistol and rifle rounds (which I do). Am I correct on this, or are the principles just the same? If so, what would it cost to get started? Thank you.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 3:52:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 3:53:33 PM EST by Jarem08]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
This drawing shows a parts breakdown. http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/1400-1500-online-parts Click on the red numbers to go directly to the part.

The piston and return spring are located in the forward end of the magazine tube. There is a port from the barrel to the magazine tube and piston at the forward end of the magazine. Clean both of those. The exhaust ports are just aft of the slot in magazine tube. Clean those, too. Make certain the gas ports are aligned when the magazine tube and barrel are reinstalled.

Check the freedom of motion of the piston inside the magazine tube. Make certain the return spring is not bent or otherwise hosed up. I would check the pin that connects the operating rod to the piston for straightness and wear where it rides in the slot, and straightness of the operating rod arms.
View Quote
I may have to post several times to get this all out. I am sorry if that is annoying. I am limited to character count. Here is where I am at:

 
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 3:54:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jarem08:
I may have to post several times to get this all out. I am sorry if that is annoying. I am limited to character count. Here is where I am at:

 
View Quote

I pulled apart my shotgun as far as I could. I removed the fore grip stock and the barrel via the plug. Then I went to pull the Piston Pin out and it would not come. I am not sure what the best method is for removing that and I don't want to force something that shouldn't be. It looks to me according to the link above that it should just pull straight out. I can get it to come a little, but not all the way.

I checked the ports. I found the two holes near the front of the magazine tube. They looked free and clear. To be sure I hit it with a rag and nothing came out. I cleaned in the inside of the piston. It came out looking good.

Link Posted: 12/10/2016 3:54:52 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jarem08:

I pulled apart my shotgun as far as I could. I removed the fore grip stock and the barrel via the plug. Then I went to pull the Piston Pin out and it would not come. I am not sure what the best method is for removing that and I don't want to force something that shouldn't be. It looks to me according to the link above that it should just pull straight out. I can get it to come a little, but not all the way.

I checked the ports. I found the two holes near the front of the magazine tube. They looked free and clear. To be sure I hit it with a rag and nothing came out. I cleaned in the inside of the piston. It came out looking good.
View Quote

After the slot where the spring can be seen, I saw the three slits (almost like ports). The ports at five and seven o'clock seemed really good. A little tight, but I suspect that is how it is meant to be. The port at 12 o'clock though seemed a little tighter than the other two. It is not by much, but it was enough that with close examination it can be seen. So I may need advice on that.

The thing that caught me though was the spring. In that guide slot that the rod arms ride down, the spring does have a little bit of a bend in it while the bolt is closed. When I pull the bolt back, the spring curls up almost like a hose starting to kink up. I don't think that should be. The best way that I can describe it is like a pen spring. If you try to push it down on a pen and it starts to bend a little, but the more you compress it, the more it bends. That is what I am seeing. Until I hear anything else in this, I want to hesitate tearing it apart any deeper.

At this point, if that spring is the part that is bad, that should be an easy

fix. If that is the case, why didn't the two gun shops I take it to see that? Again, I am most appreciative of everyone's help and answers. Thanks again.
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 4:13:03 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
This drawing shows a parts breakdown. http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/1400-1500-online-parts Click on the red numbers to go directly to the part.

The piston and return spring are located in the forward end of the magazine tube. There is a port from the barrel to the magazine tube and piston at the forward end of the magazine. Clean both of those. The exhaust ports are just aft of the slot in magazine tube. Clean those, too. Make certain the gas ports are aligned when the magazine tube and barrel are reinstalled.

Check the freedom of motion of the piston inside the magazine tube. Make certain the return spring is not bent or otherwise hosed up. I would check the pin that connects the operating rod to the piston for straightness and wear where it rides in the slot, and straightness of the operating rod arms. Check the slot in the magazine tube for wear, burrs, and so on. If any of that assembly shows obvious deformation, slots in the pin, and so on, the only solution is most likely replacement.

If there is too much gas leaking past the piston due to wear in the inside of the magazine tube, there is probably no solution but a new magazine. How does ammunition in the magazine look after firing? Try loading it with three rounds, then shooting two. If the last round and the inside of the tube are extremely dirty, then I'd say there is a good chance either the piston is too small or the tube is too large.


View Quote
All of this. 

Not familiar with this specific shotgun, but owning a ton of older ones a lot of stuff is pretty similer across the board. Looking at the parts breakdown there is part number 6, and O-ring. Check and make sure that's there.  If it's part of the gas system and missing that might explain why higher pressure ammo can cycle but not lower pressure ammo. 

Also OP, how are you lubricating it? I know on some of my older gas guns if they dry out they'll start having problems as well. 

I personally would try lubing everything in the operating system with oil.  Little bit on the o-right, on the mag tube body where anything comes in contact, the piston, the works. 
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 4:14:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 4:15:37 PM EST by Madcap72]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
Your link is messed up.
View Quote

Not his link, I think it's part of the new site feature for ad revenue generation, or at least is connected to it from what all the redirect info says.  
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 4:24:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
All of this. 

Not familiar with this specific shotgun, but owning a ton of older ones a lot of stuff is pretty similer across the board. Looking at the parts breakdown there is part number 6, and O-ring. Check and make sure that's there.  If it's part of the gas system and missing that might explain why higher pressure ammo can cycle but not lower pressure ammo. 

Also OP, how are you lubricating it? I know on some of my older gas guns if they dry out they'll start having problems as well. 

I personally would try lubing everything in the operating system with oil.  Little bit on the o-right, on the mag tube body where anything comes in contact, the piston, the works. 
View Quote
WOW! I didn't even pick up that the o-ring IS missing! It seems to fit and would keep the gas from escaping out the front of the gun itself. So what you are thinking is that I may need to change the spring and the O-ring then? That is a lot cheaper than buying a new gun (although not as much fun ). Am I wrong on the spring being a plausible problem?

As far as lubricating it, I use the Remington wipes. I run it through the inside of my chamber, bolt carrier, barrel, and any moving parts that I can get too. Maybe I need to break down the shotgun a little more to get to the inside of it better. While I don't mis-use my guns (many think that I am using fairly new guns) sometimes I may miss a part or two and that starts to show. So perhaps I need to run some down the feed tube as well to get that cleaned out a little better? Thank you for pointing these things out. I am so grateful. 
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 4:55:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 4:57:51 PM EST by Madcap72]
I would try the O-ring first,  the springs might look they bind up, but when they are contained by stuff it's normally not a problem.  If the gun is put together, and the bolt has a full smooth range of movement and slams back forward nice and hard the springs are probably fine. (You could always change them for piece of mind if you want to spend the money, but if you're trying to keep costs low wouldn't worry about it unless the O-ring isn't a 100% fix)

I would venture the whole problem lies in the O-ring. 
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 5:10:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
I would try the O-ring first,  the springs might look they bind up, but when they are contained by stuff it's normally not a problem.  If the gun is put together, and the bolt has a full smooth range of movement and slams back forward nice and hard the springs are probably fine. (You could always change them for piece of mind if you want to spend the money, but if you're trying to keep costs low wouldn't worry about it unless the O-ring isn't a 100% fix)

I would venture the whole problem lies in the O-ring. 
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According to the exploded view on the Mid West Gun Works website, it looks as though that part fits just under the barrel ring that connects the barrel to the tube and the valve cap is that correct or is it on the actual piston itself?
Link Posted: 12/10/2016 7:23:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2016 7:31:39 PM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 12/11/2016 6:06:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2016 6:11:54 AM EST by GrimesSU]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jarem08:
WOW! I didn't even pick up that the o-ring IS missing! It seems to fit and would keep the gas from escaping out the front of the gun itself. So what you are thinking is that I may need to change the spring and the O-ring then? That is a lot cheaper than buying a new gun (although not as much fun ). Am I wrong on the spring being a plausible problem?

As far as lubricating it, I use the Remington wipes. I run it through the inside of my chamber, bolt carrier, barrel, and any moving parts that I can get too. Maybe I need to break down the shotgun a little more to get to the inside of it better. While I don't mis-use my guns (many think that I am using fairly new guns) sometimes I may miss a part or two and that starts to show. So perhaps I need to run some down the feed tube as well to get that cleaned out a little better? Thank you for pointing these things out. I am so grateful. 
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Remington (Rem-oil) wipes are probably the worst thing to try and lubricate something with. They are more akin for quick surface wiping.

Get some real gun oil to lubricate with, and semi-autos love gun grease.


I would personally stay away from Rem-oil products though.
Link Posted: 12/11/2016 4:38:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 9:46:07 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
The gas port in the barrel will be inside the ring that supports the magazine.

We really need to find a parts breakdown for the Model 140 to see if there is an important difference. The 1400 has three springs in the magazine assembly, for one detail I wonder about.

I think the piston rests against the o-ring, it's trapped behind the cap. Might be trapped under the cap.

After while I'll go downstairs to see if I have a book with a drawing for your gun.
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I took apart the cap again and looked inside. The O-ring is not there. I also checked between the end of the mag tube and the piston, just to see if it was pressed and flattened. I didn't see it there either. Seeing as how the 1400 and the 140 are different, maybe having the actual drawing for mine might be the best idea. I can only find the 1400 from a link here on this site that has all the manufacturers. If you do have the drawing, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 9:48:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2016 9:54:48 AM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 9:50:22 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GrimesSU:


Remington (Rem-oil) wipes are probably the worst thing to try and lubricate something with. They are more akin for quick surface wiping.

Get some real gun oil to lubricate with, and semi-autos love gun grease.


I would personally stay away from Rem-oil products though.
View Quote

So I know that my dad used some type of cleaning oil that came in a brown bottle, orange cap and a tan label. He seemed to like that but I don't remember the name or anything else. Which oil would be good to use? If the wipes are good for a surface clean, then I really want something deeper.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 9:55:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By AeroE:


I can't find any part break downs. I have one all Winchester reference that jumps right past the Model 140.

Be sure to read Dano523's post. He's a real gunsmith.
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Not a problem. I really do appreciate your advice and your time looking at your references. I believe that I am at least one step closer to either a solution for mine or getting a new one. Thanks again.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 10:08:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Dano523:
the 140 does not use a spacer cap O ring.
It uses the three shim forearm kit to get the spacing correct for the cap so you don't have the leaking issue up front instead.

Really, just need to see the condition of the Piston, the hood gas port, and the amount of slop between the forearm cap to hood to begin with.

Hence parts may be hard to find, but the shim kit is not, and even mod'g cap for the 1400 O rings if parts are not available, or even increasing the gas port, are not had to do to get the older shotgun up and running with the now lighter loads available now.
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So I looked for a shim forearm kit. I found this shim forearm kit. I wasn't sure if this is the right thing or not.

I was able to look into the Piston, but I could not pull the piston pin out and didn't want to force something that shouldn't be. So I couldn't see all around the piston itself. The hood gas port? I am not sure if I know what that is nor the slop? I don't think I have ever heard of these before. Where would I find those?

The gas ports I thought were those little slits in the shell tube. Is it something else? I appreciate your insight and help. Thanks.  
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 10:39:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2016 10:45:52 AM EST by DanaHillen]
Clean the gas ports by running the correct size drill bit through them,twisting it by hand ONLY!!
Plastic shot sleeves can/will leave residue in the ports that resists removal by other methods.
I THINK factory port size is .110".
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 12:20:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2016 12:26:50 PM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 3:50:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DanaHillen:
Clean the gas ports by running the correct size drill bit through them,twisting it by hand ONLY!!
Plastic shot sleeves can/will leave residue in the ports that resists removal by other methods.
I THINK factory port size is .110".
View Quote

I do have a caliper. I will measure that out to double check as well. I can understand why only by hand. Thanks for the input. This may be something I have to do in a few days. Trying to get ready for Christmas programs on Sunday!
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 3:54:22 PM EST
Thank you so much for your help on this AeroE. I need to go get some Hoppe's then. I assume that would also work for oiling the gun as well? I do appreciate the links and the info. Now to put everything together! I did run the action back and forth and the ports (two round holes) line up, but there is a little of an overhang from the piston. It is not a clear through opening. I am going to look at the exhaust port next and see what I can find. Thank you very much for your time and patience on this. If you have any other suggestions, I am always open to hearing it.
Link Posted: 12/12/2016 4:46:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2016 4:47:14 PM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 11:49:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 5:11:08 PM EST
Dano523, Sorry, I misread the thread about the pictures. I thought it was stating that it just needed to be looked at. I will try to get the pictures loaded up.  I am not even sure if I have been able to figure out whether or not how to do that? Can I just insert using the add a pic button, or is there something else that needs to be done?

The fact that the 140 has a standard blow-by for the heavier loads makes sense.  I still need to take apart the shotgun tube to see the inside and the other parts. What are the hood gas ports? I had thought those were the slots that are in the tube itself (as I was mentioning above). Is that not true?

So I guess now, knowing that it either is parts, or the ports just need to be adjusted, I have already sunk about a hundred to a hundred fifty into this. At this point, I am wondering and maybe your opinion (because you know far more than I do) is it really worth it? I have it because it is sentimental (my older brother's who passed away) but that is really the extent of it. Would I be better served, saving my money and buying a newer shotgun? What is your thoughts?

I am not trying to be unappreciative for all the advice, but I am seeing a lot of time and some more money, not including possible parts being put into this. Is it really worth it? I have put almost the value of the gun back into itself.
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 5:31:03 PM EST
So I did find this video Stripping a 140
 about stripping down the 140. Apparently, the 140 is the entry level for the 1400. How accurate is this when he talks about the press points? Those points were what I thought were the ports. So, I am really now second guessing myself on this. Without ever really pulling this thing apart, I am doubting myself a little here.
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 6:10:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2016 6:15:48 PM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 6:11:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2016 6:11:38 PM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 8:27:39 PM EST
So I thought maybe that was the case. I will probably put my gun aside, keep it as a sentimental thing and save up for a newer gun. I am leaning toward a Benelli Super Nova in a pump, but if there is a better pump out there, please let me know. The main things I use it for is skeet and trap. So, that may be the best place for me to go. Thank you all for your help on this but at this point, I should probably look for a newer shotgun and save for that.

Everyone who helped with ideas and thoughts, I really appreciate it. I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas.
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 10:48:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2016 10:52:26 AM EST by Jarem08]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AeroE:
double post
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What does a double post mean? I am not sure and I could not find that in the Coc. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 12:50:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 2:43:19 PM EST
Oh! Ok. Here I thought that I had done something ! Never mind the message that I sent then. Thanks.
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