Looks like this PVS-14 is going oversea`s cgi.ebay.com/pvs-14-night-vision-monocular_W0QQitemZ220239655913QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220239655913&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 I warned him, but he didn`t see fit to list my message along with all the foreign bidders asking about shipping out of the USA, could be a scam though, the last pic through the scope shows palm trees, but the seller is located in Pennsylvania. might be autogated, the halo`s are very small.

While all Gen 3 and some Gen 2+ require export licenses, all night vision products are subject to United States Export rules and regulations. Valid export licenses may be issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce or the U.S. Department of State, Directorate of Defense Trade Controls, in accordance with the International Traffic in Arms Regulation (ITAR), Title 22, Code of Federal Regulation 120-130.

If he exports, then he MUST be in accordance with export restrictions. Violation now results in a minimum $15K fine and possible jail time.

He must have a licence, because as we know, everyone on eBay are teatotaler.  There are people in this world that would sell their mothers if they could make a buck.  It will take a couple of these individuals to get caught and trashed by government to slow this bleeding of technology down.  It's-uh-comming to, just wait and see, then those same people will be crying like little school girls about the heavy handedness of the government.  
 Anyone want to lay money down on a bet that the day is coming when some greedy individual, out to make a buck, gets caught selling NV to......lets say, known terrorist or such place like communist China.  In the aftermath, laws will be passed restricting the ownership and sale of NV technology to the common folk?   Any takers?

Someone ought to report this fellow to the State Dept. because some of the NVG exports are ending up in the hands of Al Quaeda.

What should Qaeda do with one night vision unit? They surely would take 300-400 PVS-14s, but one is worthless to them.

Quoted: He must have a licence, because as we know, everyone on eBay are teatotaler.  There are people in this world that would sell their mothers if they could make a buck.  It will take a couple of these individuals to get caught and trashed by government to slow this bleeding of technology down.  It's-uh-comming to, just wait and see, then those same people will be crying like little school girls about the heavy handedness of the government.    Anyone want to lay money down on a bet that the day is coming when some greedy individual, out to make a buck, gets caught selling NV to......lets say, known terrorist or such place like communist China.  In the aftermath, laws will be passed restricting the ownership and sale of NV technology to the common folk?   Any takers?

The last scandal with ITT which ended up with $100mil fine for the company involved sales of latest NV gear to.. tadaa... communist China. ITT supplied a large number of AN/AVS-9 sets, there are pictures on the net showing Chinese Z-9A combat helicopter crews with ANVIS goggles, might be sad but I think it is way too late now.

What should Qaeda do with one night vision unit? They surely would take 300-400 PVS-14s, but one is worthless to them.

It depends who you shoot with it.

The last scandal with ITT which ended up with $100mil fine for the company involved sales of latest NV gear to.. tadaa... communist China. ITT supplied a large number of AN/AVS-9 sets, there are pictures on the net showing Chinese Z-9A combat helicopter crews with ANVIS goggles, might be sad but I think it is way too late now.

I know, they also got the E.N.V.G. data, but ITT still wins, now they get to develop and sell the D.O.D an upgraded tech, because the opposition now has the "old"(present) tech. and with 50 million of that fine, they get to spend on research for the next system they will sell.

Sort looks like a scam to me I have never seen  Palm trees in Pennsylvania myself. This could be one of those auctions when you go to pay the guy and you never see your money ever again!

Quoted: What should Qaeda do with one night vision unit? They surely would take 300-400 PVS-14s, but one is worthless to them.

BULL SHIT...even one unit could give them enough of an edge to take a US soldiers life which to me is unacceptable....

I think the guy selling this need messed up...even if it is a scam...

If i go out and sell powdered sugar and say its cocain, guess what, its the SAME PUNISHMENT...same principal with NV, weather its a scam or not hes making the claim so fine or arrest his ass!!!

Quoted: Someone ought to report this fellow to the State Dept. because some of the NVG exports are ending up in the hands of Al Quaeda.

Done

Quoted:BULL SHIT...even one unit could give them enough of an edge to take a US soldiers life which to me is unacceptable....

They already have crates full of European and Russian NV gear so why bother with one single US made?

If i go out and sell powdered sugar and say its cocain, guess what, its the SAME PUNISHMENT...same principal with NV, weather its a scam or not hes making the claim so fine or arrest his ass!!!

You're not much of a lawyer, are you? What you've written here is a complete nonsense. You cannot be accused of illegally exporting something you don't have, you only can be busted due to fraud if you accept money and then don't deliver.

Quoted: What should Qaeda do with one night vision unit? They surely would take 300-400 PVS-14s, but one is worthless to them.

And if they buy 300, one at a time on ebay....?

Someone should report him to ebay management, too.

Quoted: What should Qaeda do with one night vision unit? They surely would take 300-400 PVS-14s, but one is worthless to them.

well there brother, you leave me at a loss for words.

Someone should report him to ebay management, too.


That's already been done at least once.

Quoted:And if they buy 300, one at a time on ebay....?

Finding 300 sellers willing to break ITAR regs would take years, if not decades. And God only knows how many of those would actually pass thru under a careful eye of US Customs. Why woul anyone do such stupid risk if he can simply call KATOD or EKRAN and order tons of Gen3 GaAs stuff nicely privately without being exposed? Even if the stuff is somewhat inferior to US made, do you think insurgents care about specsheets and in their free time compare microamperes per lumen?

I find it truly amusing that you guys actually believe that Qaeda or other jihadis are arming their troops this way They have tens of million dollars available and are in contact with professional arms traders who count in containers, not in single devices. One PVS-14 somewhere on ebay is blatantly meaningless for them.

Quoted: Someone should report him to ebay management, too. That's already been done at least once.

More than once!

More than twice --- ebay basically blew me off. It seems to me, if you look at his answers to the questions, he is going out of his way to let everyone know that he will ship overseas. Kind of strange -- could be a set-up. Who knows?

Quoted:well there brother, you leave me at a loss for words.

why?

To cut to the chase and BS being flung here --  If even 1 piece of American made NV makes it into the wrong hands and jepodizes one US Soldier or citizen, that's 1 to many for me. One U.S. made NV device on an enemy sniper rifle resulting in 1 dead American Soldier is not acceptable to me nor should it be to any of us on this forum. Why give an enemy combatant (terrorist) even one advantage no matter how small or innocent it may appear? Haven't you heard of individual terror cells that operate outside of the main body of Al Qaeda, basically on their own. How about suicide bombers using U.S. NV to navigate and evade our soldiers to make their bombs and committ their dastardly deeds. A lot of U.S. Soldiers have lost their life to sniper fire in Iraq. So fuck this retard, I hope he gets what he's got coming to him. At the very least, a good ass-kicking to start with. WTF is wrong with people today?

Quoted: WTF is wrong with people today?

They've had it too good for too long.  They feel entitled.  If they are not entitled, they are apathetic.  What they really are is pathetic.

I've seen ebay management get involved in smaller crimes than illegal exports of sensitive military equipment.  

Quoted: Quoted: WTF is wrong with people today? They've had it too good for too long.  They feel entitled.  If they are not entitled, they are apathetic.  What they really are is pathetic. I've seen ebay management get involved in smaller crimes than illegal exports of sensitive military equipment.

I agree with you on all aspects. Ebay could give 2 hoops about American Soldiers safety. Talk about scum-sucking slime, that be Ebay.

Quoted: Quoted:BULL SHIT...even one unit could give them enough of an edge to take a US soldiers life which to me is unacceptable.... They already have crates full of European and Russian NV gear so why bother with one single US made?

Just because you have a parking lot full of Yugo's, why would you ever drive a BMW?  If someone offered to get you a BMW while all your friends have an minimally acceptable Yugo, you wouldn't take the BMW??

Quoted: To cut to the chase and BS being flung here --  If even 1 piece of American made NV makes it into the wrong hands and jepodizes one US Soldier or citizen, that's 1 to many for me. One U.S. made NV device on an enemy sniper rifle resulting in 1 dead American Soldier is not acceptable to me nor should it be to any of us on this forum. Why give an enemy combatant (terrorist) even one advantage no matter how small or innocent it may appear? Haven't you heard of individual terror cells that operate outside of the main body of Al Qaeda, basically on their own. How about suicide bombers using U.S. NV to navigate and evade our soldiers to make their bombs and committ their dastardly deeds. A lot of U.S. Soldiers have lost their life to sniper fire in Iraq. So fuck this retard, I hope he gets what he's got coming to him. At the very least, a good ass-kicking to start with. WTF is wrong with people today?

You seem to be obsessed with seeing terrorists everywhere.. Whatever, it's your choice.. Anyway, remember, there is only one way to prevent fellow US soldiers from dying - keep them nicely home.

Regarding the Qaeda thing, you act as if US were the sole producers of night vision gear on this planet. No idea where this notion comes from but your imaginations about Qaeda supporters lurking around eBay to find a single PVS-14 while completely ignoring stockpiles of A-9021, D360M, D370, GNVD-1 or Katod NVM-K devices and DEP, KATOD, Hamamatsu or EKRAN tubes freely available in 100+ numbers is childish. I mean, why do insurgents use SVD or AK rifles, according to your logic they would try smuggling M14EBRs, Magpuls and AR-15s from USA instead!?

I agree than anyone who violates law deserves consequences. But get a grip with reality and stop dragging Qaeda into everything, that is utter nonsense.. Less emotions and more hard facts would serve you better..

Just because you have a parking lot full of Yugo's, why would you ever drive a BMW?  If someone offered to get you a BMW while all your friends have an minimally acceptable Yugo, you wouldn't take the BMW??

How many foreign night vision systems have you ever seen so that you compare them to Yugo? American systems are maybe 15-20% better than contemporary Russian or Japanese systems, they are definitely not worth the risk if you require larger quantities. Even hard core professionals like Australian SASR, British SAS or German KSK use European and Israeli devices with DEP tubes, guess why? If you ever cared to look further than your own borders, you'd learn that US soldiers enjoy far less advantages at night than you imagine.

Quoted: Quoted: To cut to the chase and BS being flung here --  If even 1 piece of American made NV makes it into the wrong hands and jepodizes one US Soldier or citizen, that's 1 to many for me. One U.S. made NV device on an enemy sniper rifle resulting in 1 dead American Soldier is not acceptable to me nor should it be to any of us on this forum. Why give an enemy combatant (terrorist) even one advantage no matter how small or innocent it may appear? Haven't you heard of individual terror cells that operate outside of the main body of Al Qaeda, basically on their own. How about suicide bombers using U.S. NV to navigate and evade our soldiers to make their bombs and committ their dastardly deeds. A lot of U.S. Soldiers have lost their life to sniper fire in Iraq. So fuck this retard, I hope he gets what he's got coming to him. At the very least, a good ass-kicking to start with. WTF is wrong with people today? You seem to be obsessed with seeing terrorists everywhere.. Whatever, it's your choice.. Anyway, remember, there is only one way to prevent fellow US soldiers from dying - keep them nicely home. Regarding the Qaeda thing, you act as if US were the sole producers of night vision gear on this planet. No idea where this notion comes from but your imaginations about Qaeda supporters lurking around eBay to find a single PVS-14 while completely ignoring stockpiles of A-9021, D360M, D370, GNVD-1 or Katod NVM-K devices and DEP, KATOD, Hamamatsu or EKRAN tubes freely available in 100+ numbers is childish. I mean, why do insurgents use SVD or AK rifles, according to your logic they would try smuggling M14EBRs, Magpuls and AR-15s from USA instead!? I agree than anyone who violates law deserves consequences. But get a grip with reality and stop dragging Qaeda into everything, that is utter nonsense.. Less emotions and more hard facts would serve you better..

I agree with grtwht 100 percent even after hearing your argument...

Im not saying the people bidding are terrorist, im just saying the no export law is a law for a reason, and our tubes are way better then any other tubs on the planit...you say 22 percent or whatever but an edge is an edge, and even if the chance is slim and very small that it would make it into the wrong hands ANY chance, no matter how small is to much for me, period...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: To cut to the chase and BS being flung here --  If even 1 piece of American made NV makes it into the wrong hands and jepodizes one US Soldier or citizen, that's 1 to many for me. One U.S. made NV device on an enemy sniper rifle resulting in 1 dead American Soldier is not acceptable to me nor should it be to any of us on this forum. Why give an enemy combatant (terrorist) even one advantage no matter how small or innocent it may appear? Haven't you heard of individual terror cells that operate outside of the main body of Al Qaeda, basically on their own. How about suicide bombers using U.S. NV to navigate and evade our soldiers to make their bombs and committ their dastardly deeds. A lot of U.S. Soldiers have lost their life to sniper fire in Iraq. So fuck this retard, I hope he gets what he's got coming to him. At the very least, a good ass-kicking to start with. WTF is wrong with people today? You seem to be obsessed with seeing terrorists everywhere.. Whatever, it's your choice.. Anyway, remember, there is only one way to prevent fellow US soldiers from dying - keep them nicely home. Regarding the Qaeda thing, you act as if US were the sole producers of night vision gear on this planet. No idea where this notion comes from but your imaginations about Qaeda supporters lurking around eBay to find a single PVS-14 while completely ignoring stockpiles of A-9021, D360M, D370, GNVD-1 or Katod NVM-K devices and DEP, KATOD, Hamamatsu or EKRAN tubes freely available in 100+ numbers is childish. I mean, why do insurgents use SVD or AK rifles, according to your logic they would try smuggling M14EBRs, Magpuls and AR-15s from USA instead!? I agree than anyone who violates law deserves consequences. But get a grip with reality and stop dragging Qaeda into everything, that is utter nonsense.. Less emotions and more hard facts would serve you better.. I agree with grtwht 100 percent even after hearing your argument... Im not saying the people bidding are terrorist, im just saying the no export law is a law for a reason, and our tubes are way better then any other tubs on the planit...you say 22 percent or whatever but an edge is an edge, and even if the chance is slim and very small that it would make it into the wrong hands ANY chance, no matter how small is to much for me, period...

Frankly, you are only gonna see that 10-15% difference on a totally lightless night, which if you have any experience with NV doesn't happen all that often. I personally have seen and used assorted russian, japanese, and european tubes and most of them I would rank as pretty good. With all tubes you reach a point of diminishing returns in terms of practicality, you as a human being won't be able to tell the difference between a 51lp/mm tube and 64 or 72lp/mm tube without alot of time and nice test pattern. You will notice some improvment with US gen3 tubes in the absolute fucking dark versus the others, but again that enviroment rarely exists (overcast/new moon/in the woods etc)

Quoted: I agree with grtwht 100 percent even after hearing your argument... Im not saying the people bidding are terrorist, im just saying the no export law is a law for a reason, and our tubes are way better then any other tubs on the planit...you say 22 percent or whatever but an edge is an edge, and even if the chance is slim and very small that it would make it into the wrong hands ANY chance, no matter how small is to much for me, period...

I respect this opinion of yours. I agree that US tubes are SLIGHTLY better than those produced overseas, but as Harlikwin nicely pointed out, the practical difference between a Litton OMNI VI autogated and Hamamatsu or assorted latest KATOD Gen3 tube is hardly noticeable. Certainly, Russian tubes are good enough to fulfill any kind of mission and that is what really matters..

American mentality suggests having the best gear available even at high cost but infidels don't think that way. Iraqi snipers use SVDs not because these rifles are rumored for their exceptional accuracy (which they aren't) but because they are good enough for the job, can be purchased for a small buck and without the obvious problems with export/import regulations. They don't attempt to smuggle a Barrett M82 or SAGE M14EBR even if these rifles might have edge over the SVD, it is simply not worth the hassle.

I see export regs as useful tools when it comes to F-14 parts, AMRAAM missiles or other hardware which cannot be replaced easily (if you already have F-16s like Chavez, you cannot simply hang a Russian R-77 missile on it and expect it to work). ITAR regs regarding NV gear are leftovers from the times where Russians were still hanged with Gen1 IR sights whle Americans already enjoyed MCP technology (PVS-14, PVS-5), today they don't quite serve their purpose nymore, I think.

Quoted: How many foreign night vision systems have you ever seen so that you compare them to Yugo? American systems are maybe 15-20% better than contemporary Russian or Japanese systems, they are definitely not worth the risk if you require larger quantities. Even hard core professionals like Australian SASR, British SAS or German KSK use European and Israeli devices with DEP tubes, guess why? If you ever cared to look further than your own borders, you'd learn that US soldiers enjoy far less advantages at night than you imagine.

 Actually, quite a few.  The Russians can't produce anything original, they copy everything, even their much vaunted AK is a "CHEAP" knock off of the German Stg-44. Chinese are reverse engineering our NV.  Keep telling yourself that European NV is close enough to US NV, that Russian NV is more than adequate to get the job done. Where do you think the Israelis got their technology from? Where do you think our allies, the Europeans got their NV technology from?  Do you think some European just woke up one day with a bright idea?  We gave you the information to build your own, that is what allies do, kinda like me carrying a Italian made pistol, and driving a South African made truck.
 I have personally seen the crap that the Iraqi's are getting caught with and I have seen the INTSUMs from captured Iraqi's, so keep telling yourself just good enough is just good enough.  Whenever they can get their hands on American NV, they do.  Most of the stuff that is being sold through eBay and other ITAR violating individuals isn't being wasted on Iraq, it's going to other areas that use it for their purposes.  
 Lets talk about high dollar sniper rifles, specifically Austrian .50 sniper rifles being sold to the Iranians, knowing that they were going to be sent to Iraq, which most made their way there within weeks, have been captured and are being used by many US forces.  Thanks for the back-up, Europeans.  You freely admit that Europe has NV available to the muslim countries, just need bucks in hand.  That is why your EU countries are being invaded within and will be your downfall.  England is pretty much on their last leg, my Brit buddy is 13 days out of getting his imigration license to permanantly move to the US as he can't stand what has happened to his country.  Spain buckled after "ONE" incident, better to capitulate early than deal with terrorist.  France, they have been lost for years. Germany will probably be the last to fall, but I have been to Germany, and while I can't spechen ze Deutch, I can absorb a lot from your news and you are about 10 years behind England, people just seem to have a problem telling muslims "Nine".  Just like the US is being forced to "learn" spanish, all ya'all better start learning to read and speak muslimese so that some day you will be able to read your own instruction manual on your shiny new muslim made EU NV.
 By the way, Italians fly with American hand me down ANVIS, I own a Brit scope,  and I've flown with French made NV, get this, when I looked inside the French tube.....ITT!!! Imagine that, they chose to put aside their hatred for anything US and fly with ITT tubes inside French made housings!!!  Israelis fly with ANVIS, so I guess ITT= BMW, go figure.
 We all need to get back to working with each other instead of cutting each other down.  If you have ever played the game Risk, you will understand when I say that we had better start ganging up on that little red guy coming up fromt the south, or else he is going to end up taking the board while we quivel over petty arguments like this.  If we don't start "watching" each other's backs, we are likely to find a Schimitar sticking out of it.

@ sniper-66  (and  Last Lancer)

sir, I completely agree with your assesment of the political/demographical status quo
AND, unfortunately, future of the mentioned european countries.
As much as I regret it myself, your post is right on the money. Also, I agree with your
point of most western militaries using US-made tubes in their NV equiment used for
aviation.
We all (including last lancer) agree that current US NV technology is the best there is,
even if it only is by a margin of somewhere between 10-20 percent.
I am a pilot myself, and while being a civilian pilot, I can still see that a 10 percent
better tube already could make a HUGE difference under certain conditions. For a pilot.
So it's no surprise that whoever has them available will use ANVIS for aviation use.

This thread, however, is focusing on the actual risk/probability of illegally exported NV
devices, in this case sold through ebay, are likely to find their way into the hands of
people intend on harming US soldiers and/or citizens.

Before I continue, let me make this clear: ITAR regulations are the law. Even if I agree with last lancer that this law was created with other things in mind than single NV units, it still is the law. So, people trying to sell NV gear on ebay.com to foreign countries deserve to get what's coming to them.
As long as there is only the slightest chance of such a device getting into the hands of someone trying to use it against US troops (OR THEIR ALLIES), everything should be done to prevent this from happening.

Now, I agree with last lancer 100percent that your garden variety insurgent will NOT be using a 3000dollar PVS 14 illegally aquired through ebay.com and shipped internationally through several countries' customs. The effort and the involved risks of discovery are WAY too great.
If this person's cover would be blown he wouldn't be able to provide a 2nd device, or, even worse for him, his terrorist ties might be uncovered...bad things tend to happen if the US .gov puts you on that list.

...plus, all the used PVS 7/14s sold by pawnshops or individuals on ebay tend NOT to be of the OMNI VI / thinfilmed / autogated / ... variety, so the aforementioned 10-20 percent performance advantage isn't really an issue here...

For the grunt in any army you don't use tubes of ANVIS quality. The tube in a big army PVS won't be any better than those available through russian / french / japanese / dutch sources.

What I'm trying to say is, your iraqi insurgent could very well be using a NV device EQUAL in performance to the ones used by the US convoy he is preparing to ambush, WITHOUT any US tube / parts involved.
So, I think it is reasonably safe to say that a terror cell tasked with aquiring NV gear will NOT look at what's offered on US ebay. THe risk BY FAR outweight the possible benefit of doing that.
While, at the same time, hundreds of tubes (and fully assembled units) are available to he highest bidder in other countries, with a quality level about equal to what a US grunt is using. (again, we are not talking ANVIS / aviation here)

One more thing (touched already by LL): You wouldn't believe the number of high-end collectors and airsofter worldwide. These guys are willing to pay thousands of dollars for a PVS 14. And since they are trying to simulate a US specops outfit (I would guess) no foreign device would be an option for them...plus, hunters worldwide have been told since years that the PVS 14 is what you need, and PVS 7s are what everyone sees in the movies.
So I'm pretty sure that 99.9 percent of all devices sold through ebay to a foreign country will end up either on an airsoft gun or a hunting rifle.

Now, you will scream that this leaves a .1 percent chance of this unit ending up in enemy hands. True. That's why I said in the beginning that ITAR regulations are the law and people will get what's coming at them for breaking it.

We all agree that US NV gear is the best when talking abbout high end stuff.

But we should also realize that the mainstream gear used in large quantities is of GOOD quality that can be equalled by foreign gear.

And even if a unit is only 95 percent, quality wise, it is still the insurgent's better choice because it is readily available in large quantities. Why risk shopping in the enemy's backyard if you don't have to? because insurgents doen't like a copied design???

..anyway, guys, great info in the NV Forum! Thanks all!

Lancer, my appologies, seriously.  While flying home today, I thought about this thread and I was wrong to imply that European NV is Yugo quality, that wasn't fair and for that, I appologize, I was just trying to make an analogy.
 As for AQ not paying 3k for a NV tube, think again.  These people are paying pheasant farmers $200 for every mortar round they can lob towards a FOB, they are very well funded and will easily pay $3k for a tube and do.  I don't know where y'all think that the ITAR law will go after anyone on the receiving end, they will only go after the seller on this end.  They may contact Scotland Yard or equivelant, but these people are very smart in their means of laundering money, don't think they can launder their identities?????  Therefore, where is the big risk in buying this stuff?  There is none.  As I said previously, these guys are working to get their hands on everything technological, regardless of the price, remember, they are backed by Saudi money, they have millions to toss away.  

Originally Posted By sniper-66
Actually, quite a few.  The Russians can't produce anything original, they copy everything, even their much vaunted AK is a "CHEAP" knock off of the German Stg-44. Chinese are reverse engineering our NV.
BS. This opinion is very subjective. In reality Americans do not produce that much of an original either. The jet engines were donated to you by the Brits, F-15 is a copy of Russian Foxbat and I am not even mentioning rocket engines or missile technology you have taken from Germany after WWII. Even the Night Vision is German invention, our troops were using 'Vampir' night vision weapon sights already in WWII.

Chinese are reverse engineering NV gear but not American models but Russian. Their whole inventory is based on Russian types, albeit with licensed DEP tubes made by Chlight.

Keep telling yourself that European NV is close enough to US NV, that Russian NV is more than adequate to get the job done. Where do you think the Israelis got their technology from?
Actually, European gear is worse than good Russian tubes since our companies never switched to GaAs technology which was a mistake. The best foreign tubes are Japanese and Russian ones and the assorted ones are damn good.

Israelis got their technology from DEP. They don't use Gen3 tubes. The housings and optics are indigenous or licensed from Insight, but tubes are European.

Where do you think our allies, the Europeans got their NV technology from?
Guess what, we actually invented practical use of NV technology back in 40s

Do you think some European just woke up one day with a bright idea?  We gave you the information to build your own, that is what allies do, kinda like me carrying a Italian made pistol, and driving a South African made truck.
Yes, we woke with the bright idea well before you did. You gave us nothing, quite on contrary we gave it to you..

I have personally seen the crap that the Iraqi's are getting caught with and I have seen the INTSUMs from captured Iraqi's, so keep telling yourself just good enough is just good enough.  Whenever they can get their hands on American NV, they do.  Most of the stuff that is being sold through eBay and other ITAR violating individuals isn't being wasted on Iraq, it's going to other areas that use it for their purposes.
You got to distinguish between regular stocks of Iraqi Army and between the gear infidels groups use which is not regular inventory. Iraqi Army used old German Eiselt 904 binoculars with XX1306 type tubes, but these were supplied 20 years ago.

Lets talk about high dollar sniper rifles, specifically Austrian .50 sniper rifles being sold to the Iranians, knowing that they were going to be sent to Iraq, which most made their way there within weeks, have been captured and are being used by many US forces.  Thanks for the back-up, Europeans.
With the invasion of Iraq US clearly showed us Europeans middle finger. Our notion towards Iran is simply different, you gotta respect that, the whole planet is more than just USA.
But, OTOH, I agree that the Steyr deal was somewhat hazy.. Nevertheless, don't be surprised to find out that one of largest suppliers of weapons to Iran is your 'friend' Israel.

You freely admit that Europe has NV available to the muslim countries, just need bucks in hand.
It ain't that easy. We also have export regulations regarding night vision gear...

That is why your EU countries are being invaded within and will be your downfall.  England is pretty much on their last leg, my Brit buddy is 13 days out of getting his imigration license to permanantly move to the US as he can't stand what has happened to his country.
With your economy falling directly into an abyss, talk about Europe's downfall. Sorry, but with all the mortgage crises and Enron and WorldCom cases I sure as hell would not want to live in the US..

Spain buckled after "ONE" incident, better to capitulate early than deal with terrorist.  France, they have been lost for years. Germany will probably be the last to fall, but I have been to Germany, and while I can't spechen ze Deutch, I can absorb a lot from your news and you are about 10 years behind England, people just seem to have a problem telling muslims "Nine".
Euro countries buckled for a simple reason. Your invasion of Iraq never had much support among Europeans because you were after oil and we knew that. Even those European governments who supported you were bought for a bunch of dollars to act against the will of their respective population (read Poland, Spain or others). After few incidents the pressure of the population became too high to withstand, there was no chance but to step back.

Just like the US is being forced to "learn" spanish, all ya'all better start learning to read and speak muslimese so that some day you will be able to read your own instruction manual on your shiny new muslim made EU NV.
LOL.. you got no idea what you are talking about. You have been feeding Saudis and other camel riders with petrodollars for decades, with your own money you made Muslims strong. Now with them having crates of dollars nobody else wants what do you think they do? They buy back your companies, banks, real estate and influence of your politicians. Nine percent of the American economy is already owned by Royal Saudi family, another six by the communist Chinese.. All because of low dollar, high oil prices and immense imports from China.

By the way, Italians fly with American hand me down ANVIS, I own a Brit scope,  and I've flown with French made NV, get this, when I looked inside the French tube.....ITT!!! Imagine that, they chose to put aside their hatred for anything US and fly with ITT tubes inside French made housings!!!  Israelis fly with ANVIS, so I guess ITT= BMW, go figure.
Yes, almost all pilots use US tubes, that is true. With an aircraft worth $35mil, buying US goggles for $7k makes sense. Even Chinese, when making their secret deals with ITT, were only interested in AVS-9 goggles for their pilots, they never asked for any PVS types. But the joke is that terrorists do not use any aircraft ..

BTW, there is no hatred towards America in Europe, we are just angry.. It will improve after Bush is gone..

We all need to get back to working with each other instead of cutting each other down.  If you have ever played the game Risk, you will understand when I say that we had better start ganging up on that little red guy coming up fromt the south, or else he is going to end up taking the board while we quivel over petty arguments like this.  If we don't start "watching" each other's backs, we are likely to find a Schimitar sticking out of it.
I completely agree. But the fact is our relationship detoriated after Bush came to power. You Americans became too selfish and too arrogant and ceased to treat us as partners.  Just look at your own response in style 'we americans invented everything and gave it to you, poor euros for free, now be obeyant and shut up'.. you can bet your ass we will not become your humble servants. Start to treat us as partners and we will gladly back you up again.

Quoted:

I hate going off topic, but I have to admit you have struck a nerve with me in the past, and you continue to with statements such as this (in RED)....As far as I am concerned, you will NOT continue on this course...NO emotion here with you, just stating facts...
No disrespect to you, Victor, but I am not obliged to have the same political point of view like you have. Your FoxNews style opinions are striking my nerve, too, but I have to respect them.. We got a little something called freedom of speech, it is one of the vital European and American values.. I suggest you stick to it and respect different point of view, as well. That does not make us automatically enemies..

You seem like a bright enough guy to realize what IS happening around the world...There IS A WORLD WAR ON WITH THE RADICAL ISLAM MUSLIM MOVEMENT PERIOD!! Label it or call in anything you want.  Look around, (Sniper66) stated it very well what countries are currently and SERIOUSLY under attack or past that point!  He forgot to mention the Philippines, Africa (already gone),
Austalia, (than God for their president) and the list goes on and on. The next time you think you know whats best for our troops and our country, take a trip here to the USA and stand next to ground zero and smell the on-going death that's STILL in the air that will NOT go away!  What I will not do is stand by on this forum and watch you take small swings at my country or our troops with what YOU think is best for our security all based on thinking Al Qaeda or more importantly radical Islam is not very real and we should somehow stay home and let them start blowing up stores and malls here is the U.S..  We have TAKEN it to the enemy world wide and will continue so the war does not take place on American soil like it did on 9/11. No emotion or obsessions here just telling you some facts based on my "FORMAL" education and experience. Well, I do have one obsession (I was mistaken) I WILL  continue to do everything I can to keep our troops safe while their nicely shooting bad guys (our enemies) in the face.

My rant is off....For now...and I see where this thread is going...
I am sure that your feelings are genuine, unfortunately your government acts differently. If muslim extremism was what your politicians were really after, instead of Iraq you would be fighting a battle in Saudi Arabia. That is the cradle of muslim extremism and ther best   source of funds, a real snake's head. Think about it for a while.

Quoted:
Lancer, my appologies, seriously.  While flying home today, I thought about this thread and I was wrong to imply that European NV is Yugo quality, that wasn't fair and for that, I appologize, I was just trying to make an analogy.
No offense taken. I also have no problem to admit that your top-of-notch NV gear is somewhat superior to ours.

As for AQ not paying 3k for a NV tube, think again.  These people are paying pheasant farmers $200 for every mortar round they can lob towards a FOB, they are very well funded and will easily pay $3k for a tube and do.  
I don't think money is the real issue. Finally, foreign NV gear is not cheaper than US made. It is more about availability. Russia, for example, does not have any export regulations, they sell to anyone, buying there is easy..

I don't know where y'all think that the ITAR law will go after anyone on the receiving end, they will only go after the seller on this end.  They may contact Scotland Yard or equivelant, but these people are very smart in their means of laundering money, don't think they can launder their identities?????  Therefore, where is the big risk in buying this stuff?  There is none.  As I said previously, these guys are working to get their hands on everything technological, regardless of the price, remember, they are backed by Saudi money, they have millions to toss away.
The risk is still there. Imagine you being a dealer for AQ. Even if you find someone is the States who would be willing to risk it, I don't think that a crate full of night vision gear would ever make it thru. In the end effect you pay big money and receive nothing.

Regarding Saudi money, that is a big problem. We both, Americans and Europeans are to blame, their money came from our own countries.

A nice evening to you. LL

Quoted: Im not saying the people bidding are terrorist, im just saying the no export law is a law for a reason, and our tubes are way better then any other tubs on the planit...you say 22 percent or whatever but an edge is an edge, and even if the chance is slim and very small that it would make it into the wrong hands ANY chance, no matter how small is to much for me, period...

That almost sounds familiar.

Kinda like the gun grabbers.

"I want to ban all guns, not just rifles. The chance even one could end up in the wrong hands, no matter how small, is too much for me! BAN THEM ALL!"

Hardline no exception stances, my my arent they lovely. Until they are used against you.

Quoted:

When quoting history, quote it all.  You failed to mention that while AEG was developing the vampir system, that the US was in parallel development of it's own Gen 0 sniperscope and snooperscope. As for the Germans giving us the technology, we assessed your system after taking it from you, and found the battery system unmanageable and the active system wasn't any better than ours. I do admit that we took the MG-42 and developed our M-60 from it. I will, and have always admitted that German technology was and is outstanding, and if it wasn't for Hitler, y'all might have pulled WWII off. But, since you brought up the rocket topic, lets never forget that some of your technology, specifically rocket technology, came from people that were coerced with the extermination of their families to the tune of 11,000,000. To bad Germany couldn't have used those great advancements for the betterment of the human condition as opposed to trying to conqure the world.  When talking true I2 technology though, no doubt, we did develope that.  
 As for the Soviets having an original thought, not very often. I won't go into a huge long list of things that they copied, just one word to top it off, Buran, nuff said there.  The F-15 is a copy of the Foxbat?  Development of the F-15 started in the 60's with lessons learned from Vietnam over air superiority, The Foxbat was developed as a high altitude interceptor to counter the Valkyrie and then the SR-71 in 1972. Just because the F-15 has dual tail fins doesn't mean it's  knock off of the Foxbat. The Havoc is an almost bolt for bolt copy of the original failed Apache project that was purposely leaked to the Soviets, now they have a helicopter that is used almost exclusively for airshows because they can't sell it.
  Don't try selling the fact that Iraq is our fault because we were after oil and you Europeans knew it.  The reason Germany didn't back us was because you were building bunker systems for Saddam and were into it to the tune of several billions of dollars and if we went into Iraq, Germany stood to, and did loose those bllions in repayments from the Iraqis.  France was building their nuclear program until the Israelis took care of that, so then they started selling them ballistic missiles, yes, there were missiles, I had a video of a truck driving down a ammo dump with numerous French missiles lined up along the road, regret getting rid of that one.  The Soviets were against it because they built almost all of their airfields and hardened shelters, weapons, and aircraft that hadn't been completely paid for.  Iraq never produced more than %3 of our total oil, so that "war for oil" statement is lame, %43 of our oil comes from Canada, we haven't invaded them.  Might want to take a look at what country is being contained right now by our being in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the other "stans" surrounding it.  It doesn't take a genious to see that if Iran was left to it's own devices, we would probably already have a nuclear holocaust from Isreal nuking Iran, they took care of the Syrian problem recently.  
 No hatred in Europe against Americans?  You need to take a trip with an American over to France! A country that would be speaking German if it wasn't for us. As for the poor dollar, Europeans had better study what is happening to the dollar very closely, because in about another 10 years when the heavily propped up Euro has to cash in on your tax base, which is dwindling fast, the value of the Euro will drop faster than Paris Hilon's panties.  It's called globalization, one can't not effect the other, y'all are just at the top of the swell right now, you will come down soon enough.  And why you think that the removal of George Bush will solve all the ills, he's just your Moby Dick that you are heaping your disdain on.  European disdain for Americans didn't start with Bush, it has been ongoing since the end of WWII, it's just now that the disdain is openly coming out in the light. It's one reason why we are pulling our bases and money out of Germany.
 To finish back on topic, ITAR laws, we have them, you have them, everyone has them.  Then why is there so much wailing and gnashing of teeth when on this and other NV boards when we say we can't sell our NV? You've concluded that our NV isn't much better, only %10 to %15.
I'm tired, going to bed, my head hurts, this will never be resolved.  Your final statement, we were to selfish and to arrogant... Well, I guess there is one more thing that we stole from the Germans and the French, I guess we will never learn. Good night.

Quoted: Quoted: When quoting history, quote it all.  You failed to mention that while AEG was developing the vampir system, that the US was in parallel development of it's own Gen 0 sniperscope and snooperscope. As for the Germans giving us the technology, we assessed your system after taking it from you, and found the battery system unmanageable and the active system wasn't any better than ours. I do admit that we took the MG-42 and developed our M-60 from it. I will, and have always admitted that German technology was and is outstanding, and if it wasn't for Hitler, y'all might have pulled WWII off. But, since you brought up the rocket topic, lets never forget that some of your technology, specifically rocket technology, came from people that were coerced with the extermination of their families to the tune of 11,000,000. To bad Germany couldn't have used those great advancements for the betterment of the human condition as opposed to trying to conqure the world.  When talking true I2 technology though, no doubt, we did develope that.    As for the Soviets having an original thought, not very often. I won't go into a huge long list of things that they copied, just one word to top it off, Buran, nuff said there.  The F-15 is a copy of the Foxbat?  Development of the F-15 started in the 60's with lessons learned from Vietnam over air superiority, The Foxbat was developed as a high altitude interceptor to counter the Valkyrie and then the SR-71 in 1972. Just because the F-15 has dual tail fins doesn't mean it's  knock off of the Foxbat. The Havoc is an almost bolt for bolt copy of the original failed Apache project that was purposely leaked to the Soviets, now they have a helicopter that is used almost exclusively for airshows because they can't sell it.   Don't try selling the fact that Iraq is our fault because we were after oil and you Europeans knew it.  The reason Germany didn't back us was because you were building bunker systems for Saddam and were into it to the tune of several billions of dollars and if we went into Iraq, Germany stood to, and did loose those bllions in repayments from the Iraqis.  France was building their nuclear program until the Israelis took care of that, so then they started selling them ballistic missiles, yes, there were missiles, I had a video of a truck driving down a ammo dump with numerous French missiles lined up along the road, regret getting rid of that one.  The Soviets were against it because they built almost all of their airfields and hardened shelters, weapons, and aircraft that hadn't been completely paid for.  Iraq never produced more than %3 of our total oil, so that "war for oil" statement is lame, %43 of our oil comes from Canada, we haven't invaded them.  Might want to take a look at what country is being contained right now by our being in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the other "stans" surrounding it.  It doesn't take a genious to see that if Iran was left to it's own devices, we would probably already have a nuclear holocaust from Isreal nuking Iran, they took care of the Syrian problem recently.    No hatred in Europe against Americans?  You need to take a trip with an American over to France! A country that would be speaking German if it wasn't for us. As for the poor dollar, Europeans had better study what is happening to the dollar very closely, because in about another 10 years when the heavily propped up Euro has to cash in on your tax base, which is dwindling fast, the value of the Euro will drop faster than Paris Hilon's panties.  It's called globalization, one can't not effect the other, y'all are just at the top of the swell right now, you will come down soon enough.  And why you think that the removal of George Bush will solve all the ills, he's just your Moby Dick that you are heaping your disdain on.  European disdain for Americans didn't start with Bush, it has been ongoing since the end of WWII, it's just now that the disdain is openly coming out in the light. It's one reason why we are pulling our bases and money out of Germany.  To finish back on topic, ITAR laws, we have them, you have them, everyone has them.  Then why is there so much wailing and gnashing of teeth when on this and other NV boards when we say we can't sell our NV? You've concluded that our NV isn't much better, only %10 to %15. I'm tired, going to bed, my head hurts, this will never be resolved.  Your final statement, we were to selfish and to arrogant... Well, I guess there is one more thing that we stole from the Germans and the French, I guess we will never learn. Good night.

Yep, Hitler is something with have to live with. I pesonally don't feel responsible having been born almost 30 years after the WWII ended but still there will be enough people to remind me that it ws all my fault ;) Anyway, our grandfathes believed in Hitler because they started to see enemies and partisans everywhere - which led to radicalization of the whole society..

Your whole part of the F-15 and MiG-25 in wrong.. The first flight of MiG-25 took place in March 1964, F-15 came in 8 years later in July 1972. It is by far not only about twin tails, just compare air intakes, tapered wing design, lift body or poistioning of the engines, all the same.

As for Europeans, don' t take French as a standard, they are pretty crazy. They also hate us Germans, Brits and whoever else...

As for your argument about Iraq never having produced more than %3 of your total oil, of course it was a reason.. If you already had 50% of their oil prior to invasion, then why invade at all? Why would you waste time and money on gaining something you already had?

I rest this case, e simply have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that, after all.

I will skip the me/we/them political propaganda, which has little to do with the topic of this forum and is pointless to comment.  

However, a few points regarding NVDs.
The first usefull personal system was the british Tabby Mk 1 monocular, designed before the RCA's 1P25 tube was created or before Zielgerät 1229.
The CV series of IR detectors, the British were using, was based on earlier works from erly 30's (Dutch? - would have to verify, if someone is interested).

Very little is known about Russian WWII gear.

The "XX% better than" is purely pointless. NVD's or IIT should be compared from the operational point of view. Which IIT have an advantage over its counterpart, in what situation and how often this situation is likely to happen?

height=8

To finish back on topic, ITAR laws, we have them, you have them, everyone has them. Then why is there so much wailing and gnashing of teeth when on this and other NV boards when we say we can't sell our NV? You've concluded that our NV isn't much better, only %10 to %15.

It's only a part of the picture, but if one compares the prices of NV gear in US with crazy prices Photonis-DEP is asking for their tubes he
Ironrat
PS. EIA (Energy Information Administration) gives quite precise data regarding US oil import. Looks like the figure given here for Canada is far from being correct.  

last_lancer...you should email barak obama, mabey you can do some campain work for him

Quoted: Quoted: To cut to the chase and BS being flung here --  If even 1 piece of American made NV makes it into the wrong hands and jepodizes one US Soldier or citizen, that's 1 to many for me. One U.S. made NV device on an enemy sniper rifle resulting in 1 dead American Soldier is not acceptable to me nor should it be to any of us on this forum. Why give an enemy combatant (terrorist) even one advantage no matter how small or innocent it may appear? Haven't you heard of individual terror cells that operate outside of the main body of Al Qaeda, basically on their own. How about suicide bombers using U.S. NV to navigate and evade our soldiers to make their bombs and committ their dastardly deeds. A lot of U.S. Soldiers have lost their life to sniper fire in Iraq. So fuck this retard, I hope he gets what he's got coming to him. At the very least, a good ass-kicking to start with. WTF is wrong with people today? You seem to be obsessed with seeing terrorists everywhere.. Whatever, it's your choice.. Anyway, remember, there is only one way to prevent fellow US soldiers from dying - keep them nicely home. Regarding the Qaeda thing, you act as if US were the sole producers of night vision gear on this planet. No idea where this notion comes from but your imaginations about Qaeda supporters lurking around eBay to find a single PVS-14 while completely ignoring stockpiles of A-9021, D360M, D370, GNVD-1 or Katod NVM-K devices and DEP, KATOD, Hamamatsu or EKRAN tubes freely available in 100+ numbers is childish. I mean, why do insurgents use SVD or AK rifles, according to your logic they would try smuggling M14EBRs, Magpuls and AR-15s from USA instead!? I agree than anyone who violates law deserves consequences. But get a grip with reality and stop dragging Qaeda into everything, that is utter nonsense.. Less emotions and more hard facts would serve you better..

Sorry but I just got back from a trip to the cabin and didn't have internet access there.
Hate to tell you this, but I'm not obsessed with terrorism at all. You really know nothing about me but  come up with some wild accusations. Personally I can give a <removed profantiy> what you think about Americans, but I do care about American Soldiers and their safety....

As for keeping American troops home, well if we did that, we'd be speaking German now in the USA and there wouldn't be any Jewish people around my Frenchman in German clothing. I rather like Israeli women. Very, very hot!!!!!

I could go on and on, but alas my tutonic friend you have shown your true colors with your feelings about American Soldiers. I could tell you to <removed profanity> but I think most people on this forum see you for what you are and I won't have too ---  but I will say, don't come crying to AMERICAN SOLDIERS FOR HELP. Oh I forgot, you guys never knew what was going on in the camps. You make me sick ---(]

Quoted: Alrighty now.....This topic started with ITAR issues and now it has progressed to where profanity starts and all that other stuff....LET's ALL get back on topic!! NO MORE COUNTRY AND PERSONAL ATTACKS! You can resume this thread or parts of it in the GD discussion forum where it really belongs. I am sure it will continue to be VERY popular! Thank you! NV Moderator

Sorry Victor, I didn't mean to trash this thread. It just gets my blood boiling when people start trashing American Soldiers. Everything I am and own, I owe to our brave men in uniform. The most priceless thing I owe them for is my FREEDOM!!!! How can any of us put a price on that? Almost everyone here on AR.15.com has served but we all owe, wither we served or not we have been blessed by having the American Soldier keeping us safe and free since day one. The old saying holds true to this day and I hope I get it right  -- "There are only two people willing to sacrifice their life for yours --- Jesus and the American Soldier". Thanks to all our men in uniform and I support you all in everyway I can. Victor, again my apologies, but that guy and his attitude makes me see RED!!!!

My appologies for hijacking this thread.  Lancer, no harm, no foul.  I don't blame Germans for Hitler anymore than I will take blame for the slavery issue here in this country, but he is a part of your history that you have to live with, just as we have our characters. I just found your historical inaccuracies maddening.  The MIG-25 Foxbat did not fly in 1964, just google "Foxbat history" and this is what you get


Designation: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 (Foxbat)
Classification Type: Interceptor / Reconnaissance Aircraft
Contractor: Mikoyan-Gurevich - Soviet Union Country of Origin: Soviet Union
Initial Year of Service: 1972
Number Built: Not Available  

OK guys, on to better things.  Word up!

Quoted: Looks like this PVS-14 is going oversea`s cgi.ebay.com/pvs-14-night-vision-monocular_W0QQitemZ220239655913QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220239655913&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 I warned him, but he didn`t see fit to list my message along with all the foreign bidders asking about shipping out of the USA, could be a scam though, the last pic through the scope shows palm trees, but the seller is located in Pennsylvania. might be autogated, the halo`s are very small.

I was notified the item was withdrawn by the seller. Thanks to ARFCOM for your diligence and activism.

Quoted: My appologies for hijacking this thread.  Lancer, no harm, no foul.  I don't blame Germans for Hitler anymore than I will take blame for the slavery issue here in this country, but he is a part of your history that you have to live with, just as we have our characters. I just found your historical inaccuracies maddening.  The MIG-25 Foxbat did not fly in 1964, just google "Foxbat history" and this is what you get Designation: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 (Foxbat) Classification Type: Interceptor / Reconnaissance Aircraft Contractor: Mikoyan-Gurevich - Soviet Union Country of Origin: Soviet Union Initial Year of Service: 1972 Number Built: Not Available   OK guys, on to better things.  Word up!

No problem. I am well aware of our history and think it was a tough lesson which made the present German generation better.

Regarding your Foxbat data, you are mistaken. The 1972 was the year of introduction of the interceptor version MiG-25P into service. Recce variants came two years earlier in 1970. The first recce prototype was E-155-R1 (flown 06-Mar-1964), the first interceptor prototype came several months later.

Comparison table:

development start: MiG-25 1958, F-15 1969
first flight: MiG-25 March 1964,  F-15 July 1972


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25
www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/mig25/

Quoted:

As for keeping American troops home, well if we did that, we'd be speaking German now in the USA and there wouldn't be any Jewish people around my Frenchman in German clothing. I rather like Israeli women. Very, very hot!!!!!

Agree on Israeli women.. Although Slavic ones are even hotter (yes, our grandfathers once wanted to wipe out those regions, too.. )..

I could go on and on, but alas my tutonic friend you have shown your true colors with your feelings about American Soldiers.

Have I? Where?
For the record, I never blame simple fellow soldiers. They go where they are told to, they got no other choice. If there is someone to blame for the fasco in Iraq, then it's politicians.

I could tell you to <removed profanity> but I think most people on this forum see you for what you are and I won't have too ---  but I will say, don't come crying to AMERICAN SOLDIERS FOR HELP.

You can tell me whatever you want to.. Believe me, a guy with your attitude cannot make me feel embarassed, let alone offend me..
BTW, I certainly don't feel like coming crying to American soldiers, why should I? We got our own ones, after all.

Oh I forgot, you guys never knew what was going on in the camps.

There were many rumors around, of course.. But the society was so radicalized that most folks would not have accepted any reasonable arguments, just like you now.. Those who spreaded rumors like this were labeled conspiracists and communists. One thought twice before having said anything about death camps.

Sorry Victor, I didn't mean to trash this thread. It just gets my blood boiling when people start trashing American Soldiers. Everything I am and own, I owe to our brave men in uniform. The most priceless thing I owe them for is my FREEDOM!!!! How can any of us put a price on that? Almost everyone here on AR.15.com has served but we all owe, wither we served or not we have been blessed by having the American Soldier keeping us safe and free since day one. The old saying holds true to this day and I hope I get it right -- "There are only two people willing to sacrifice their life for yours --- Jesus and the American Soldier". Thanks to all our men in uniform and I support you all in everyway I can. Victor, again my apologies, but that guy and his attitude makes me see RED!!!!

ROTFLMAO. Read this..
www.georg-elser-arbeitskreis.de/texts/hitlerrede.htm
I won't go as far as to translate it all here but in this Hitler's speech from 1939 he basically said the same about German soldiers...

You make me sick
LOL.. A nice day to you, too.

I am finished with this topic, let us move to ITAR regulations.

I've told everyone to get back on topic!