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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/26/2005 7:17:03 PM EDT


Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:01:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 8:03:52 PM EDT by F421]
Hmmm......no thanks. Add a standard stock and then I would give it a go.
How are you meant to aim pistol gripped shotguns like this??

I tried firing one of our folding stocked remingtons from the hip at about 10m with the stock folded. Thought I was pointing at the COM but only ended up getting a couple of hits in the head. This means at approx 15m I would be getting no hits on the target.

IMO pistol grip only stocks(I may as well add heat sheilds in here too) are a waste of time and money....................................but they sure do look cool!
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:40:03 PM EDT
A gun like that in the US involves a lot of red tape to own ( IMHO) and I kind thought it would be 'cool' but not practical.

Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:43:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 8:44:14 PM EDT by Spartan24]
Isn't that one of the Witness Protection Program shotguns that were recently sold?

Honestly, I love shooting my 12s from the hip. I guess I just better inherent accuracy and can withstand a little kick.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:50:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 8:52:06 PM EDT by DasRonin]
If you use the correct techique... they are not so bad. With the politically correct "reduced recoil" loads, it should be a puppy!

We qualed with them using magnum buck loads, and if you did it wrong it was uncomfortable or good for an occasional bump on the head.

If you want to shoot one of those, this is the technique. I know what I am talking about and this is the correct method.

Hold the weapon at eye level and sight as you normally sight a shotgun. With the hand that manipulates the trigger you grasp the pistol grip and pull back. With the hand that works the action bar you push the weapon towards the threat. Yes... push-pull like you are trying to stretch the weapon front to rear. When the weapon fires (recoils) it will come down and back. Dropping down from your face. That manages the recoil and keeps the weapon moving away from the face and down to the rear.

If you do it the way most do it wrong. Push out with both hands... the weapons will come back at you and if you are not strong enough or provide enough strength to hold it out, it will come up and back and sometimes smak you in the head or face. It also makes quick follow up shot difficult.

If the correct technique is used... there is nothing to it. However, pulling a short shotgun back towards your face seems illogical to most... and many will not follow directions. We kept a box of band-aids handy for those who where too "smart" to listen to the instructors!

I thought they were fun to shoot... and for fun we also shoot slugs between classes.

These ARE NOT shot from the hip. They are shot at eye level aiming using the push-pull technique.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:55:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 9:06:32 PM EDT by niceguymr]
I think 2guntom can help answer this question if he comes across this thread. I thought I read something on his website about his experience with this type of setup.

Where are you 2guntom?

ETA: Don't worry about shooting it. Just 'rack' it and that will do the job just fine.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:49:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 2:49:45 PM EDT by freemanesq]

Originally Posted By CRC:
www.autoweapons.com/photosv/870box.jpg




Now is this an AOW or SBR?

Also, I'd get one of them straps for the forend do I wouldn't blow my hand off.

R.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:04:01 PM EDT
AOW
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:05:20 PM EDT
I don't like the pistol grip on shotguns. A 870 with a full stock shoots from the hip very well. It's well balanced with the full stock.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:15:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 5:18:05 PM EDT by DasRonin]
I really really tried not to post this question... but I just can't look away.

Why would anyone want to shoot anything from the hip?

The myth of a "scatter" gun just being pointed in the direction of a threat... is just that... a myth. It rates right up there with the myth of only having to rack the action of an 870 to stop a threat.

I have seen people miss a full size target at 15 yards and less while shooting from the hip. I have seen people who are afraid of the shotgun completely miss the target at even a distance of 7 yards. I have seen people shooting from weak shoulder at 7 yards miss a target. Why... because they were pointing the shotgun and not aiming it!

Yes, you can shoot and hit shooting from the hip. You can if you practice or take the time to position it carefully before shooting. Having seen hip shooting and aimed fire with a shotgun... hip shooting is often slower, and if it is done faster or as fast as aimed fire... the hits on target are not as good. Speed is fine, but accuracy is final!

Remington 870, 20 inch barrel. Training target at 15 yards. Point of AIM head area on the target. Ammunition: Remington reduced recoil 00 buck. The entire pattern covered the head area, not one pellet was off the head. I consider that good patterning and good shooting (because of aiming). A head shot at 15 yards with 00 buck is possible and effective!

Other than goofing & having a little fun, and copying what is seen in B grade movies... I just don't understand why anyone would hip shoot for serious social encounters.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:49:09 PM EDT
Well... I found this page on 2guntoms website that specifically addresses this setup.

www.2guntom.com/shotguns/remington8703.html
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:55:33 PM EDT
This looks like the type of shotgun used to breech locked doors and such. not really a need to aim, just point and shoot.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 7:33:25 PM EDT
I’ve been a police officer for over 23 years and have qualified shooting a 18" and 20" 870, with a full stock, from the hip and from the shoulder.

Just like a handgun, during close contact with a suspect, you don't want to produce your weapon to the suspect. Hip shooting keeps the shotgun closer to you and harder for the suspect to get to.

I know someone is going to say, you shouldn't be that close. Well, when is the last time you actually cleared a house with a loaded weapon and a real bad guy inside? If your on the outer perimeter and end up making entry, you can just lay your shotgun down and use your handgun. You want to keep your weapon close. In real life, it does happen.

I'm confident in my ability to hit a close target in the bread basket shooting from the hip. I'm just as confident with targets farther away from the shoulder. We train for all possible scenarios.

We also qualify shooting our handgun from the hip area.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 7:33:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DasRonin:
If you use the correct techique... they are not so bad. With the politically correct "reduced recoil" loads, it should be a puppy!

We qualed with them using magnum buck loads, and if you did it wrong it was uncomfortable or good for an occasional bump on the head.

If you want to shoot one of those, this is the technique. I know what I am talking about and this is the correct method.

Hold the weapon at eye level and sight as you normally sight a shotgun. With the hand that manipulates the trigger you grasp the pistol grip and pull back. With the hand that works the action bar you push the weapon towards the threat. Yes... push-pull like you are trying to stretch the weapon front to rear. When the weapon fires (recoils) it will come down and back. Dropping down from your face. That manages the recoil and keeps the weapon moving away from the face and down to the rear.

If you do it the way most do it wrong. Push out with both hands... the weapons will come back at you and if you are not strong enough or provide enough strength to hold it out, it will come up and back and sometimes smak you in the head or face. It also makes quick follow up shot difficult.

If the correct technique is used... there is nothing to it. However, pulling a short shotgun back towards your face seems illogical to most... and many will not follow directions. We kept a box of band-aids handy for those who where too "smart" to listen to the instructors!

I thought they were fun to shoot... and for fun we also shoot slugs between classes.

These ARE NOT shot from the hip. They are shot at eye level aiming using the push-pull technique.


This sounds perfect.

I have an 870 with knoxx folder set up to be light weight gun.

I have always felt the way to "wing shoot" or hunt with this gun with the stock folded would be to sling it. Bring the gun up like any other shotgun, pushing away from me and at the same time pulling against the sling, keeping tension on it. If I could come up with this on my own, the technique posted above makes a lot of sense. Time to fire up the clay birds!
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 8:27:20 AM EDT
I happen to really like the "horizontal" pistol grips as shown above, I've even considered buying a second 870 to have one dedicated on. For hip firing it's the best pistol grip out there, and makes even an 18" 870 quite handy in a vehicle. The more common pistol grips that angle down sharply from the reciever have always bound my wrist and caused painful recoil when firing from the hip (though that type of grip does work better with the aimed hold that DasRonin described).

With practice hip shooting a shotgun at close range can be accomplished with a relative degree of accuracy - my grandfather hunted quail with this technique for over thirty years, and I've scored hits on targets out to 20 yards with the technique. I still utilize aimed, shouldered fire for the combat shotgun in most cases, but that does not totally invalidate this design. I tend to think the US Marshalls knew what they were doing when they bought these. It's a niche application, but as Colt_SBR pointed out it does have it's place, especially in "combat in a telephone booth".
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:26:07 PM EDT
I reckon they were config that way to be concealed.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:53:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 1:07:52 PM EDT by DasRonin]

Originally Posted By CRC:
I reckon they were config that way to be concealed.

CRC



Yes, they were. The concept of that style known as a "Witness Protection" shotgun was from the weapon being developed for use by U.S. Marshals specifically related to the Federal Witness Protection Program. They were designed to be easily concealed and fired from inside a vehicle. There was actually a technique taught of how to shatter the windows of car doors with the first shot, when it became neccessary to shoot from a moving vehicle. They were modified from standard Remington model 870P. The standard stocks were reshaped to very close to what is shown in the photo above, and the barrels were shortened.

The model shown above is a very accurate factory reproduction of the weapons developed for use by U.S. Marshals. The original weapons used by U.S. Marshals WERE NOT factory produced. The original models had a plate that was held under the magazine cap, intended to perform two functions. To help prevent the hand from sliding forward off the fore-end, and it also had a slot for a front mounting point for a sling. Often under recoil, if the shooters hand was sweaty or the gun was fired in the rain... it was difficult to maintain a grip on the fore-end. During training, if it rained... training was often not conducted with this weapon for safety reasons. The fore-end was the standard wood, and not synthetic or otherwise changed or modified.
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