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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/13/2017 7:06:54 PM EDT
How have you guys sent someone you don't know personally a sizable sum of money for night vision without the risk of being burned? Obviously things like seller feedback through classifieds help tremendously, but what about for places such as Armslist? Does paypal cover your ass in case the guy you've been chatting with back and forth suddenly goes MIA?
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 7:17:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:
How have you guys sent someone you don't know personally a sizable sum of money for night vision without the risk of being burned? Obviously things like seller feedback through classifieds help tremendously, but what about for places such as Armslist? Does paypal cover your ass in case the guy you've been chatting with back and forth suddenly goes MIA?
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I don't think PayPal will cover you directly but eBay will if the transaction is through them. I like to get the vendor to agree to using USPS for a big purchase because if he defaults then it's MAIL FRAUD and the Postal Inspector comes to the party - good times. There is always risk. I have gotten burned maybe twice out of 1,500 times. It's been worth it to me.

Stay with the guys that look like they are in it for the long haul. Stay with the guys that sell the same stuff consistently. A sudden shift in merchandise may just be a business decision but it could also be an indicator of a hijacked account.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 7:27:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2017 7:44:48 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 7:51:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TNVC:


You have my word, myself or my staff will not MIA after chatting with us! We've been around for 11 years now!

Also when purchasing with unknowns, always ask for a 5 day inspection period and ask (if any) warranty on the units transfer.

Vic
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It's actually one of your units with 4 years of warranty left on it, so we are good in that department!
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 7:58:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 8:12:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TNVC:


Awesome, be sure before you get the unit, please obtain the S/N, then send it to us for verification. sales at tnvc dot com. Once you receive it, send us another email for the warranty transfer with all your info. Thank you and enjoy.
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Good to know - I will definitely do that if this comes to fruition.

Back to the topic at hand - this isn't through eBay, so I don't know what the best approach is. Obviously the seller is communicative, rational, has a solid unit, spec sheet, and knows the relevant terminology as any of you enthusiasts would, which is a good sign.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 8:34:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:


Good to know - I will definitely do that if this comes to fruition.

Back to the topic at hand - this isn't through eBay, so I don't know what the best approach is. Obviously the seller is communicative, rational, has a solid unit, spec sheet, and knows the relevant terminology as any of you enthusiasts would, which is a good sign.
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Yes, those are all good signs. Are you dealing with the EE? If so, look for duration of time on arfcom and post count. You have some assurance that someone who has been here a while does not want to get kicked off of the board. Like I said - there is always some risk, just mitigate it. I would not "gift" funds for it on PayPal. Use the invoice system and pay the fees, if necessary. Otherwise you have no legal recourse.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 9:01:47 PM EDT
I got mine through the EE second hand. 
It was not easy pulling the trigger on that send money button, but I opted to pay the extra for goods and services.
Potentially, if something happens its better than sending F&F.

I did not get burned, seller had 75+ positive EE reviews.
He got one more.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 9:11:00 PM EDT
Yeah definitely would be paying PayPal goods and services with the fees for any added protection, but unfortunately this isnt through the EE. Was mostly wondering if anyone knew for sure if PayPal facilitated non- eBay payments for goods and services with buyer protection. It seems like they do from their website info but I am not sure if night vision is on their blacklist of arbitrary unsupported but perfectly legal consumer goods.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 9:11:10 PM EDT
I've had good success with the EE here. Another member sent me a set of binos in the 5K range with no money in hand so I could inspect it. All based on my EE feedback alone. It's a important feature, so make sure you use it.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 9:53:07 PM EDT
Ive recently sold my MUM on the EE. I too as a seller was having second thoughts about doing it that way. I basically dont sell, i buy through EE, and certainly not these amounts. So I was new. Like has been mentioned, look at how long theyve been around, and any feedback recently. If on here, look at recent posts and see if they are talking about their item for sale. Otherwise just buy once cry once from any of the site sponsors. Theyre all pretty good peeps. :)
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 10:51:08 PM EDT
I attempted to purchase a PVS14 from armslist a few years ago. It did seem like a pretty good deal...Turned out to be too good. Luckily I used Goods and Services instead of FF.
When the guy became unresponsive, I contacted PP and filed a claim.
I did make a point to say that it was for astronomical purposes instead of anything weapons related.
I got my money back in 2 days. Live and learn. Not that I haven't had plenty of great NV transactions on armslist, but after that experience, PP definitely gives me peace of mind.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 10:53:56 PM EDT
I drove 500 miles through a snowstorm to buy it in person
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 10:56:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WhiteHotBrownDown:
I attempted to purchase a PVS14 from armslist a few years ago. It did seem like a pretty good deal...Turned out to be too good. Luckily I used Goods and Services instead of FF.
When the guy became unresponsive, I contacted PP and filed a claim.
I did make a point to say that it was for astronomical purposes instead of anything weapons related.
I got my money back in 2 days. Live and learn. Not that I haven't had plenty of great NV transactions on armslist, but after that experience, PP definitely gives me peace of mind.
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Hey this is great info. Thanks very much. This definitely isn't a "too good to be true" deal so hopefully no worries but it's good to hear from someone who has actually had the experience.
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 10:56:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Joe731:
I drove 500 miles through a snowstorm to buy it in person
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I considered this as well. It's 7 hours away though!
Link Posted: 3/13/2017 10:58:59 PM EDT
Paypal does buyer protection. Call them if you cant find the policy so you do exactly what you need to in order to feel confident that you are covered. The 3% fee is how they make money, so dont feel like you are bugging them, because you are paying for that protection.

If its on the EE, i just try and make sure the person is legit and has a posting history. If they have no posts or feedback, i wont sell to them, and ive refused sales in the past - it simply isnt worth risking on ITAR restricted items. Same goes for buying - i've passed on some great deals from unknown sellers.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:51:56 AM EDT
It sounds like you're going about this rationally. After that there isn't much you can do.

It's my opinion that 90% of the time people are on the up and up.

I will admit though I bought my nv on EE and I probably won't buy used anywhere else. Just because of feedback. And people get to know eachother. You can ask the mods for help.

Good luck OP. You'll be fine. Let us know when you get them and post pics. Oh, and be prepared to spend lots more on helmets and lasers and what not
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 6:00:34 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Joe731:
I drove 500 miles through a snowstorm to buy it in person
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Beat the wait and watching the tracking update!


Luckily I bought mine from a guy who I trusted and knew enough people who knew him. Even then, doing that bank transfer was nerve wrecking when I looked at the actual facts of sending someone a lot of money who I really didn't know. 
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 6:39:56 AM EDT
IMO, used is the way to buy NV. $1800-2000 all day long for a solid PVS14.

Paypal goods and services will cover your tail if something goes south.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 7:48:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2017 7:55:16 AM EDT by razerface]
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Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
. I would not "gift" funds for it on PayPal. Use the invoice system and pay the fees, if necessary. Otherwise you have no legal recourse.
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that is interesting, thanks
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:10:15 AM EDT
I have seen several people get burned through Armslist and by using PayPal goods/services. Basically a tracking number is provided and a empty envelope arrives with a tracking number or a box with rocks or a brick shows up. PayPal is unable to do anything because a package was sent and received. Recent and on going feedback is important before you make a decision to complete a purchase.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 11:43:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
I have seen several people get burned through Armslist and by using PayPal goods/services. Basically a tracking number is provided and a empty envelope arrives with a tracking number or a box with rocks or a brick shows up. PayPal is unable to do anything because a package was sent and received. Recent and on going feedback is important before you make a decision to complete a purchase.
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Paypal's buyer protection services specifically state that they cover items received that are not as described or in significantly worse condition than described. Seems like that would qualify.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:07:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:


Paypal's buyer protection services specifically state that they cover items received that are not as described or in significantly worse condition than described. Seems like that would qualify.
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Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:
Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
I have seen several people get burned through Armslist and by using PayPal goods/services. Basically a tracking number is provided and a empty envelope arrives with a tracking number or a box with rocks or a brick shows up. PayPal is unable to do anything because a package was sent and received. Recent and on going feedback is important before you make a decision to complete a purchase.


Paypal's buyer protection services specifically state that they cover items received that are not as described or in significantly worse condition than described. Seems like that would qualify.


Interesting....I have not heard of this. I would as well assume paypal would cover it. Might be worth an email to paypal. I had an issue with fraud one time and they were more helpful than my bank.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:13:18 PM EDT
Just be careful on Armslist, craigslist, etc. I'm comfortable buying and selling on here with people who have good feedback. Other forums as well. But just do your due diligence. Also, as mentioned, run the serial by Vic and let them make sure it checks out in their system at TNVC.

Maybe even find a local FFL (I know they have nothing to do with night vision) that they might be able to help facilitate the transfer for a small fee. At least that way you've got a third party with a physical business that can help you verify what you're getting. That's just a thought.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 12:16:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2017 12:18:02 PM EDT by mdmorrow]
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Originally Posted By chosos:
Paypal does buyer protection. Call them if you cant find the policy so you do exactly what you need to in order to feel confident that you are covered. The 3% fee is how they make money, so dont feel like you are bugging them, because you are paying for that protection.

If its on the EE, i just try and make sure the person is legit and has a posting history. If they have no posts or feedback, i wont sell to them, and ive refused sales in the past - it simply isnt worth risking on ITAR restricted items. Same goes for buying - i've passed on some great deals from unknown sellers.
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Definitely. If you go to sell something, there's nothing wrong with sending the person some type of an ITAR compliance form to fill out. Its simple CYA in case they do something stupid with it. If nothing else, you're spelling out the rules with this stuff for them. Surprisingly not as many people know as you might think.

Feedback and post history here are good indicators. It's pretty easy to figure out who actually participates and who's just trying to buy and sell stuff.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 4:03:07 PM EDT
I have rolled the dice many many times on ebay with mostly good results, I`ve learned that it is best to positively identify the seller outside of ebay before sending any payment, it`s shocking how much personal information is available on the internet with just a name and address. I wont sell on ebay anymore because the bias is in the buyers favor, and because of straw buyers and ITAR.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 4:44:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MunnyShot:
I have seen several people get burned through Armslist and by using PayPal goods/services. Basically a tracking number is provided and a empty envelope arrives with a tracking number or a box with rocks or a brick shows up. PayPal is unable to do anything because a package was sent and received. Recent and on going feedback is important before you make a decision to complete a purchase.
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I can't even begin to think of the stupid things I might do to someone if I spent that much and got bricks in a package.

I had a scam pulled on me (partially my fault I suppose) and lost my DSLR camera. Cop said people come from the next city over to "buy" things then sell them on Craigslist in their city.

I can't tell you how long I looked for that camera in Syracuse Craigslist so I could arrange a face to face.
Link Posted: 3/14/2017 5:04:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BravoSierra:
Ive recently sold my MUM on the EE. I too as a seller was having second thoughts about doing it that way. I basically dont sell, i buy through EE, and certainly not these amounts. So I was new. Like has been mentioned, look at how long theyve been around, and any feedback recently. If on here, look at recent posts and see if they are talking about their item for sale. Otherwise just buy once cry once from any of the site sponsors. Theyre all pretty good peeps. :)
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Was that your Gen 2+ MUM14? I wanted that thing very badly, but I'm short of funds. Glad you got it sold before I liquidated a rifle!

Link Posted: 3/14/2017 5:37:45 PM EDT
There is an interesting fraud phenomenon that was (maybe still is) happening on Amazon.

1) The vendor's Amazon account and PayPal account are both compromised.
2) The scumbag lists an expensive item for half price to ensure a quick sale.
3) The unwitting customer buys it and pays through PayPal.
4) The scumbag has the item drop shipped from the distributor and pays on a credit plan.
5) The customer receives the item and funds are released to the compromised account.
6) The scumbag orders a gift card in the amount he can squeeze out of the compromised PayPal account (probably to an address not affiliated with him but where can snatch the mail).

Once the scumbag skips with the gift card he's home free. The compromised account holder is stuck with cleaning up the mess and the customer is stuck with a fraudulently obtained item that may be subject to seizure as evidence for an investigation.

One of my friends wanted to buy a Gen 2+ PVS-14 off of Amazon and had me look into it because the price looked too good to be true. I saw the earmarks of fraud and told him to avoid it. That's when I discovered this.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 7:04:06 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
There is an interesting fraud phenomenon that was (maybe still is) happening on Amazon.

1) The vendor's Amazon account and PayPal account are both compromised.
2) The scumbag lists an expensive item for half price to ensure a quick sale.
3) The unwitting customer buys it and pays through PayPal.
4) The scumbag has the item drop shipped from the distributor and pays on a credit plan.
5) The customer receives the item and funds are released to the compromised account.
6) The scumbag orders a gift card in the amount he can squeeze out of the compromised PayPal account (probably to an address not affiliated with him but where can snatch the mail).

Once the scumbag skips with the gift card he's home free. The compromised account holder is stuck with cleaning up the mess and the customer is stuck with a fraudulently obtained item that may be subject to seizure as evidence for an investigation.

One of my friends wanted to buy a Gen 2+ PVS-14 off of Amazon and had me look into it because the price looked too good to be true. I saw the earmarks of fraud and told him to avoid it. That's when I discovered this.
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There were a lot of "warehouse deals" and "open box" deals on Amazon for night vision and thermal a couple months ago. IRD units for ~$2500, gen 3 PVS14's for $1000. All from the same couple of sellers and they ask you to contact them direct. I emailed amazon and they were removed pretty quick. Lots a red flags on those units.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 9:21:11 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SOT_Solutions:
There is an interesting fraud phenomenon that was (maybe still is) happening on Amazon.

1) The vendor's Amazon account and PayPal account are both compromised.
2) The scumbag lists an expensive item for half price to ensure a quick sale.
3) The unwitting customer buys it and pays through PayPal.
4) The scumbag has the item drop shipped from the distributor and pays on a credit plan.
5) The customer receives the item and funds are released to the compromised account.
6) The scumbag orders a gift card in the amount he can squeeze out of the compromised PayPal account (probably to an address not affiliated with him but where can snatch the mail).

Once the scumbag skips with the gift card he's home free. The compromised account holder is stuck with cleaning up the mess and the customer is stuck with a fraudulently obtained item that may be subject to seizure as evidence for an investigation.

One of my friends wanted to buy a Gen 2+ PVS-14 off of Amazon and had me look into it because the price looked too good to be true. I saw the earmarks of fraud and told him to avoid it. That's when I discovered this.
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Thieves should have their hands broken. Makes me mad just reading this Let alone if it happened to me.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 10:45:36 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By NothingClever:


Thieves should have their hands broken. Makes me mad just reading this Let alone if it happened to me.
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It happens.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1974110_Brazilian-Thief-Shot-In-The-Hand--GRAPHIC-.html
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 1:02:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By caver101:


There were a lot of "warehouse deals" and "open box" deals on Amazon for night vision and thermal a couple months ago. IRD units for ~$2500, gen 3 PVS14's for $1000. All from the same couple of sellers and they ask you to contact them direct. I emailed amazon and they were removed pretty quick. Lots a red flags on those units.
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What red-flagged the PVS-14 that my friend wanted to buy was the seller's sales history. He had about 50 sales with no apparent issues but they were all for $20 bags of specialty spices - then, completely out of the blue, a PVS-14.
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 2:21:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2017 2:39:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lowdown3:
I'm convinced a lot of these little hadji mart gas stations where people swipe their cards end up taking the card numbers and trying to order high dollar optics online. We have gotten about 400 or so attempts from dirtbags like this every year. You tell them to call and when they do they always have a foreign accent. I can't tell you how many guys called saying they were "Stephanie Jones" or "Mary Smith." Really, your name is MARY huh? Then they started having a woman call, she would lose her cool and start screaming at us when we busted her BS. We nicknamed her "Jihad Jane." Scammers never stop, I've been in business 25 years and I've seen it all, thankfully they are pretty easy to spot.
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The screaming works on a lot of people so that won't go away any time soon.

Most of these dirtbags only SEEM creative because they are doing something we have not already seen. Most of them are copying the one creative person they have in their community. This copycat behavior generates distinct patterns. They are not flexible if you rattle their routine. A true master is wily and generates a good amount of smoke but you don't see him too often.

Once you've seen a few of these, you can identify the rest pretty easily.

Personally I would avoid ITAR regulated goods if I were in their shoes. There is a lot of low hanging fruit to be picked versus dealing with a wary night vision gear salesman... but it's all par for the course - their reach will always exceed their grasp.
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