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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 5/29/2002 5:58:58 PM EDT
Lately, I've been wanting my girlfriend to be better prepared in a home defense situation. She is proficient with the Glock 30 and Glock 19, preferring the latter. However, I want her to have access to a long gun as well.

She is about 5'3 1/2", 118 lbs. She has never fired a long gun at all. I have a few 12 gauge shotguns but I am a bit concerned that may offer her too stiff of recoil - I especially don't want her to get turned off of shotguns with her first outing being with a 12 gauge - especially because my scatterguns are Benellis, and various other makers' pump guns. The recoil is fairly stout.

I am thinking about a Remington 1100 or 1187 20 gauge with a 18" or 20" barrel, maybe in a youth stock.

What are your recommendations and why? Would she be better off with a shotgun or rifle? Would she be better served with an AR, maybe an HK USC .45, M1 Carbine? I think she prefers semi-auto, as opposed to anything in a pump or lever action.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:52:14 PM EDT
A Remington 1100 or an 1187 would make a fine home defense gun for her. I too would choose the 20 gauge and use #3 buckshot. This gun and round has proven to be a very efficient home defense gun. Have her practice with a 20 gauge if possible before buying one as it may still me too much for her.

If she doesn't like the recoil of the shotgun, there is another reliable option. Buy her a Ruger PC 9 carbine. These are 9mm and take the same standard magazines that the 9MM Ruger P series pistols use. Look for at least one factory or Mec-Gar high capacity mag for it and choose a good round for it like the Hydra-shok, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, SXT, etc. You can always add extra factory and Mec-Gar 10 rounders later as back-up's pretty cheaply. A 9mm handgun isn't a bad weapon with the right ammo and the added velocity the extra barrel length of a carbine will give it will only make it hit harder. These carbines are reliable, short, and have low recoil. She can put a lot of lead on target rapidly with such a gun. And the best part is these can be bought as cheap as $350 if you shop in the right places.

If she doesn't already have a Glock, you could mate her up with one of the Ruger P-95 handguns as well, that way her magazines could interchange between rifle and pistol. The Ruger is just as reliable as the Glock and can be bought new for $325 or less. And of course if she has the Glock and or prefers one over the Ruger pistols, the carbine would still make a nice little defensive weapon for her. Hope this was helpful.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:54:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 8:55:16 PM EDT by LgAnimalVet]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
A Remington 1100 or an 1187 or 870 would make a fine home defense gun for her. I too would choose the 20 gauge and use buckshot.



Sounds good to me!
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 8:57:17 PM EDT
I would personally stay away from semi-auto rifles. If you ever had to use one in this state, such as an ar-15, I don't think you would have that good of a time in court even if it was perfectally justifiable. I would go the 20 gauge pump route. Whichever brand you prefer would mostly come down to finish and safety location (I tend to prefer the mossberg safety). Also, don't underestimate the authority of the racking of the slide sound, something you won't have with a semi-auto...that will most likely end any potential situation. my two cents.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 9:00:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 9:02:51 PM EDT by LgAnimalVet]

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
I would personally stay away from semi-auto rifles. If you ever had to use one in this state, such as an ar-15, I don't think you would have that good of a time in court even if it was perfectally justifiable.



Well thats why you have that bolt action target rifle in .223 sitting in the vault you can swap with the AR before the cops get there!!! Just don't put more than 5 rounds in him...


edited to say it is 223, not 233--d@mn whoever did that earlier today--now you got me doing it
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 9:14:11 PM EDT
If you will take her to someone that kows how to teach the shotgun, there won't be any recoil problem with the 12 gauge, especially with tactical buckshot and slug. The reason most people have trouble with the shotgun is that they don't know how to shoot it, so they have recoil problems. Having said that, I haven't met a female shooter yet who didn't think my M1 Carbine was just perfect for them. Light weight, low recoil, good size (most long guns have a buttstock that is way to long for female shooters).
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 9:30:35 PM EDT
How about an AR15 with a pistol caliber converison kit? Recoil is non exsistance.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:50:40 PM EDT

I would personally stay away from semi-auto rifles. If you ever had to use one in this state, such as an ar-15, I don't think you would have that good of a time in court even if it was perfectally justifiable.

Stop listening to Masaad Ayoob.


Also, don't underestimate the authority of the racking of the slide sound, something you won't have with a semi-auto...that will most likely end any potential situation. my two cents.

I repeat: Stop listening to Masaad Ayoob.

Anyone who follows up and says not to use reloads is gonna get bonked inna head.

In any case: an AR or M1 Carbine (I use an M1 Carbine) is probably a good idea. They're light, light-recoiling rifles with a good length of pull for a smaller shooter.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:31:05 PM EDT

Also, don't underestimate the authority of the racking of the slide sound, something you won't have with a semi-auto...that will most likely end any potential situation.


Does a semi-auto not make the same sound when you cycle a round into the chamber? Chu-chink! Sounds the same to me! This is hardly a worthwhile thing for me anyway since the only sound of the action working will be during follow-up shots! I keep a round chambered at all times.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:34:44 PM EDT
I'll vote for a .223 carbine. An AR with 16" barrel would be a good platform. Ball ammo is relatively "safe" in urban settings, and recoil is light. If you want to be PC, or if your girl doesn't like black guns, consider a Mini-14.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:37:50 PM EDT
Here's a piece of good advice...

If your woman is going to practice shoot a shotgun, have her use birdshot because it has a much lighter recoil.

Also, if you are worried about recoil, the HK USC 45 is a little painful to shoot. The frame is so light.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:44:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dissipator16:
Here's a piece of good advice...

If your woman is going to practice shoot a shotgun, have her use birdshot because it has a much lighter recoil.

Also, if you are worried about recoil, the HK USC 45 is a little painful to shoot. The frame is so light.



As long as she graduates up to buckshot. Birdshot is for just that...birds. Don't worry about penetration of your walls in the house. Concentrate on shot placement. Shot placement is always the key. I'd rather overpenetrate thru a wall than hit someone with birdshot, and have them keep coming.

Just my opinion.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 5:29:19 AM EDT
I would also recommend a gas autoloader either in 20 or 12 guage. To me, the 20 guage kicks about the same as the 12, because 20's are lighter so it works out to about the same recoil.

Anyway start her out with target loads at a skeet/trap range until she get the hang of working the gun. Then you can graduate her to heavier loads.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 5:37:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
I would personally stay away from semi-auto rifles. If you ever had to use one in this state, such as an ar-15, I don't think you would have that good of a time in court even if it was perfectally justifiable. I would go the 20 gauge pump route. Whichever brand you prefer would mostly come down to finish and safety location (I tend to prefer the mossberg safety). Also, don't underestimate the authority of the racking of the slide sound, something you won't have with a semi-auto...that will most likely end any potential situation. my two cents.



That slide racking sound is great for one thing, telling the bad guy exactly where you are. And if you need the thing fast, having to cycle a round into the chamber could cost you badly. Your first considered action upon getting the gun into your hands is to ensure that a round is chambered. Now you know the gun is ready to go at a moment's notice. Screw giving the bad guy a warning.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:27:37 AM EDT
I'd be looking at the M1 Carbine, the Ruger PC9 or Deerfield, or maybe a Marlin camp carbine if you can find any. Then there are always the .357 and .44 lever actions -- they are hard-hitting and very innocent looking. Recoil might be prohibitive though.

If you want something bigger than a pistol caliber carbine, nothing beats a shotgun for close range defense. Again, recoil will likely be a problem.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:46:38 AM EDT
I don't think recoil would be hard for her to master, with the right set up, loads and pratice she will be able to learn to control the blast, and lose her fear.

I was about 13 years old when I got my first 12 ga. pump, it was a model 12 trap. I shot trap all afternoon with it, 3 dram powder 7 1/2 loads.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:54:48 AM EDT
I vote for a shotgun.. Mossberg 590 Pump.. 0r 20ga. pump if she'd prefer her own, with light loads.. Birdshot or # 5 will handle inside shooting very well, without blowing your house down..
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 6:55:43 AM EDT
What about a 20 gauge side-by-side with external hammers (the "cowboy" shotgun)? You can leave it loaded constantly with no stress on any springs, they're generally short and fairly light, and the recoil isn't bad at all.

The 1100 is a good choice as far as shotguns go, but I'd be a bit concerned about barrel length - not exactly manueverable in the confines of a house. Of course, as long as she plans to hunker down and take up a defensive position, and there's enough space for it, then it's probably a decent deal.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:12:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2002 7:13:15 AM EDT by pepper]
Turbo,
Mossberg makes a neat .410 ga pump with a special spreader choke and short barrel, just perfect for home defense for a small adult.

The only downside is it will take a long time for her to re-load once the orignial six have been spent.

"#50359 HS410 .410 bore HOME SECURITY Pump Action, 6-shot capacity, blued finish, synthetic stock, 18 1/2" bead barrel w/ special ‘spreader choke’. "

Regards,
Pepper
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:23:10 AM EDT
Both the 20 gauge and the Ruger PC-9 sound like good choices. I have a PC-9 and I've tried to concentrate on training my wife and daughter with that particular weapon. It's compact and easy to use. The light recoil is a plus along with the fact that magazine insertion is quick and pretty foolproof with a nice mag well. I've also found the weapon to be quite reliable with ergonomics that would seem to be useful in a "high anxiety" situation. I have a Mini-14 and wouldn't even want my wife to try and use that thing. (I like it for a plinker and a "project gun", though.)

My wife and daughter find the PC-9 very unintimidating and I think they'd be relatively comfortable in using it to protect themselves. My daughter specifically asks to use it at the range.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:30:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GungHo:
In any case: an AR or M1 Carbine (I use an M1 Carbine) is probably a good idea. They're light, light-recoiling rifles with a good length of pull for a smaller shooter.



Uhhh, believe it or not, that's exactly Massad Ayoob's advice: an AR with light bullets, or an M1 Carbine. His reasoning was reduced penetration through buildings.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:34:22 AM EDT
How about

12 Ga. Semi-Auto.

Possibly with a shorter buttstock, that has a recoil pad on it.

Use 12 Ga. "tactical loads" they have reduced recoil, but will do fine for self defense type ranges.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:35:03 AM EDT
cant go wrong with an ak and a muzzle break
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:42:22 AM EDT
I started both my wife and daughter off on a .22 and then had them "graduate" to an M1 Carbine-----which they now love to shoot.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:48:28 AM EDT
If she's proficient with a Glock, moving to a pump shotgun may be a bad idea. You get used to shooting without having to do anything between shots, you can forget to work a pump action UNLESS YOU PRACTICE A LOT. If the recoil of a pump gun borders on painful, she's less likely to practice a lot. So whatever your choice is, I'd go with a semiauto.

As for what type of long gun... I recently took a woman shooting to try her hand at a bunch of long guns. She's already reasonably comfortable with revolvers but wanted to try some other things.

She did not particularly like my shotgun (a Mossberg 500 12 gauge loaded w/ Federal Tactical 00) but was able to shoot it reasonably well. Still, that was slow fire. One shot. Take some time to recover from the shot. Shoot again... Perhaps an autoloader would have worked better for this loading.

She was amazed at how easy my Bushmaster was to shoot -- the ergonomics, the absence of recoil, time for follow up shots, etc. I think for her size (about the same as turborocket's lady friend), the shorty Bushy was a perfect fit.

Never really got the point of pistol caliber carbines. Sure they're more accurate at long distances. But for this situation (home defense), how much long distance accuracy do you need? And the cartridges are designed around shorter barrels so you're not really taking full advantage of any velocity gains from the longer barrel.

When all is said and done, I'm firmly in the rifle camp. It's the gun I go to when I have the option. Reading the new ammo FAQ graciously updated by Troy and Tatjana makes me even more confident in my choice. The legal liability issues, while potentially real, are the last consideration when I'm thinking about staying alive and safe.

Just my .01 (because my ex-wife took half of everything).

Link Posted: 5/30/2002 8:37:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperChicken:
cant go wrong with an ak and a muzzle break


I would be concerned with the effects of the brake's blast in an indoor situation. Plus the only advantage to a brake, less muzzle rise, wouldn't be much of a factor in the 0-20 ft ranges you'd encounter in a house.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 8:47:40 AM EDT
Hit 'em with a rolled up restraining order!
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 9:07:11 AM EDT
Your lady may be able to learn to handle a shotgun, but I have seen my wife literally knocked off of her feet firing a 12 ga pump. I know it sounds kind of silly, but she would never be comfortable with a shotgun no matter how much I tried to convince her. This is the AR15 forum. A carbine would be my recommendation. AR15, M1, or whatever. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 9:36:57 AM EDT
Bushmaster 16" shorty.

I love mine.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 11:41:42 AM EDT
I use a 870 with an ATI folder but for a female even a 20ga may be too much. My wife loves her HI-POINT Carbine. It's a 9mm, 10rd mags, pistol grip. The thing is just 32" long and has a big peep sight that you can use in a dark hallway.
Best thing is the price, $199.00 in Shotgun News from MKS Supply...877-425-4867
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 11:46:12 AM EDT
I don't understand why people think that a 12ga or a 20ga is too much for a woman to handle. The size of the person doesn't really matter, just how they handle the weapon.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 11:57:29 AM EDT
Your right Golftoe. With my wife it was her love of the 9mm. The more they like it, the better they will be able to use it when the real time comes. I guess my point is, she will practice with the carbine much more than my 870.
The shotgun is not too much for her, just ask all the geese she shot this year.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 4:13:35 PM EDT
Remington offers a 1100 youth model in 20 gauge with a 21" barrel and a black synthetic stock. It would make a great house gun and she could take up clay shooting. MIKE
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 4:32:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2002 4:44:11 PM EDT by GungHo]

Originally Posted By Tinker:

Originally Posted By GungHo:
In any case: an AR or M1 Carbine (I use an M1 Carbine) is probably a good idea. They're light, light-recoiling rifles with a good length of pull for a smaller shooter.



Uhhh, believe it or not, that's exactly Massad Ayoob's advice: an AR with light bullets, or an M1 Carbine. His reasoning was reduced penetration through buildings.


He's not always wrong.

However, bullets will go through sheet rock. No firearm allows you to ignore what's behind your target. Sometimes he forgets to mention that part.

And, I really think they're just good guns for home defense, especially if they're going to be used by smaller people. They're light. They don't recoil much. Those factor into a greator ability and willingness to practice with the gun.

You can teach someone to use a 12 ga pretty easily, but, regardless of technique, it's still going to kick harder and be heavier than the light carbine.

Which do you think is an easier practice session to get someone to agree too, especially if they're not very strong? 100 rounds of .223/.30 Carbine or 100 rounds of 2 3/4" 12 ga?

You gotta be familiar with any gun you're going to use for self-defense. Choose something you can practice with.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 9:53:41 PM EDT
Remington 870 in .410. You they make buckshot or use a low # birdshot -like 4's. I know I wouldn't want to get hit with it at 20yards.

And you can "borrow" it for small game.;)

Tony
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 7:24:44 AM EDT
if you go 9mm rifle, get a sub2000
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 9:24:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2002 9:33:56 AM EDT by buzzgunner]
Benelli 20 gauge Monefeltro or 12 guage M1. The Benelli action is super reliable.

AR-15 Carbine (this is AR15.com afterall). 20 round mag would probably be enough and nice 'n handy. Go with a lightweight barrel. Multiple sighting options.

DSA FAL carbine. Go with the light weight receiver and barrel. 16" barrel is LOUD but handy. Alternatively, screw the muzzle brake (just adds noise), get the 20" and have them bob it to 18"

Marlin 1894P lever action in 357 or 44 mag. With a 16" barrel, its pretty handy. More punch than a handgun. And you have the "Ay-boob" factor of the noise of racking the action. Fit it with an Ashley ghost ring rear and big dot tritum front. A very politically correct gun if you are concerned about that. Also makes for a great all-around camp gun (I have one).

Weapon selection depends on your environment. If you are in an apartment, I am sure your neighbors would appreciate you using a shotgun loaded with birdshot. If you have scenarios where you might need defensive fire from a distance pick the AR15 or FAL. If you might have to punch thru a car or cover, definitely the 308.

If you are really paranoid, use all of them.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 4:10:12 PM EDT
Thanks for all the input.

I am narrowing it down to a 20 gauge Remington 1100 with an 18" or 20" barrel, M1 Carbine, and a Ruger PC9.

On the 1100, this was my first choice, and I am glad to hear others confirming this selection. If Remington does not offer this in a shorter barrel (18"), I don't mind having a gunsmith cut it down. It also helps that Remington offers the youth stock, in case the standard is too big. I would certainly be the last to try to convince her not to use a 12 gauge, but again, her not having ever fired a long gun, I don't want to risk scaring her away from 12 gauges.

On the M1 Carbine, I've wanted one for a while so this might just be the right excuse to get one.

On the Ruger, I don't know much about these at all. Does anyone know if there is a Glock mag conversion for it? It might be a stupid question but had to ask anyway. If there is a conversion for it, how's the reliability?

Link Posted: 5/31/2002 8:00:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2002 8:02:56 PM EDT by threefiftynone]
I know I'm gonna catch hell from both ends, but....HERE GOES...

I'll trade you my 5'5", 160 pounder who can outshoot me with a 12 gauge, PLUS a rusty old Mossberg 500 for your 5'3" 118 pounder...

This is gonna hurt....

edited fer spelin
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 8:08:42 PM EDT
If you have friends that have a 12 gauge,20 gauge,and a 28guage,or .410 guage. Have them come over if you live in the country,or take said guns to the creek.

Take four 2x4 about six feet long pointed at the end set them in the bank standing up. you take the same size shell you will be using for home defense. Get back about four or five feet,which will be about as close as the perp will be after smashing in your door and running to get your wife.

Fire each gauge at that range and tell me if you see any difference in what they do to that 2x4. Then you make up your mind as to what gauge is needed at that range to get the jod done.

Quess what I'll bet your wife,and you will be most surprised at what a .410 will do up close and personal.



Bob
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 9:31:16 PM EDT
I concur with two of the recommendations here:

The 1100/20-ga. shotgun or the Bushmaster 16" bbl. carbine.

(I think it'd be a helluva lotta fun to help her pick and choose the accessories to outfit her mighty-mini combat shotgun!)

The rifle/carbine would be pretty basic for HD.

I don't know if you've got AR's already or not, but, somebody has to have one.
You could get her outfitted for the AR carbine and then teach her how to use one of your 12-ga. shotguns, powering up the ammo incrementally to whatever level she's comfortable with.

My vote goes for:
If you're gonna spend the money, get her an AR and gee-gaw it out to what's needed for HD.
Then, get her on the shotguns.

Yeah, that's what I think would work well in this case.

Link Posted: 5/31/2002 9:53:27 PM EDT
Winchester makes Silver tip hollows points in .30 caliber carbine. But thats what I would to go with. My wife shot a firend of mine's and she said its the perfect little ladies gun.
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 10:05:05 PM EDT
Mossberg Home Defense Shotgun

.410 with slugs and buckshot

Check it out

Link Posted: 5/31/2002 10:18:32 PM EDT
Mossberg 500, 18" bbl, pistol grip, 2& 3/4 #4 shot...

I'm scared to try to crawl into my own bed...
Link Posted: 5/31/2002 10:46:29 PM EDT
Benelli Nova 20ga. with 3 4 shot extension and recoil reducer and she won't feel a thing
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 7:05:35 PM EDT
Rocket, The 1100 LT-20 youth model that I recommended comes with a 21" barrel that is threaded for choke tubes, so gunsmithing is not needed. My kids have one and I have used it to teach several kids and a few ladies to shoot clay birds. I love the .410, I have four of them but I don't think it is a good choice for self defence. Twenty gauge ammo is cheaper and more abundant. Any Wallmart will have a full selection. The youth model comes with a modified choke tube. You can add a skeet, improved cylinder or full choke tube as you need. Enjoy, MIKE.
Link Posted: 6/1/2002 10:54:15 PM EDT
Now for something different:

Marlin 1894 lever-action loaded with .44 Special.

It's nice and short, good capacity (10), and
really light recoil. Furthermore: BIG blade sights for beter visibility in bad light.


Just trying to add some variety.
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 1:59:56 AM EDT
You all OBVIOUSLY haven't seen "Enough", the new movie out with Jennifer Lopez. According to Lopez and Hollywood, the average 5'6", 120 pound woman can kick a 6'4" 230 pound man's ass with a month's worth of martial arts training - NO "home defense weapon" necessary!! Please no flames from all you martial arts proponents - I know your skills are viable - but the movie actually does women a disservice by specifically showing Lopez finding and then hiding all of her abusive husband's evil, nasty handguns (a Walther PPK and a Ruger auto), electing to kick his ass in hand to hand combat rather than give herself the realistic advantage of a handgun. What a bunch of rubbish! I wonder how many women die because they believe bullshit like that? Rant off.
Link Posted: 6/2/2002 5:46:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
...you will be most surprised at what a .410 will do up close and personal.

Bob hr


I hadn't thought of a .410. I wonder what one of those Winchester 1894 .410 lever actions would be like?
Link Posted: 6/3/2002 7:08:36 AM EDT
Heck, you might want to look into a Ruger 10/22. Not as much damage per shot, but you can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger with almost no recoil. Something to consider.
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