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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/4/2002 5:08:54 AM EST
Ok, here goes: So NJ won allow me to use moire than 15 rds. in a Ar15. That is too little. At least 2 shots per man I say which leaves 7 and one shot for backup. Then I was looking at the HK USC.

Very nice, very reliable, 10 rd mag but can shoot .45 SUPER and even regular .45 is a one shot one kill/incapacitator if used well. Picatinny rails are cehap but still. It isn;t really what I want.

Then yesterday I read "Pointman" by Chief James Watson. It is about his career as a former SEAL in Seal Team Two and how he prepared adn spent thee tours in "Nam. In it he carried a Ithaca 37 and then later got a modified 37 with 8 shot extension and a duckbill (This spreads the shot out in a line right?)

Anyway, I have always liked the look of the Ithaca 37 esp. the Homeland Security model. It is only 5 rounds, but hey, with Federal Hydrashok Slugs one shot leaves an exit wound the size of a baseball (or somethign close to that).

SO the questions are:

Is pump action better than semi auto, it seems that having a bolt and all that is too complicated. Just load and pump seems easier. Do semi auto shotguns have a last shot hold bolt open function so you cna load and just realease the bolt? I am esp. interested in the Wilson Combats and the Benelli M1 Tactical.

Also the Ithaca 37 ejects shells to the bottom of the gun which seems great for ambidextrous shooting which is a nessecary thing for true CQB. Is the Ithaca 37 so much more reliable than anything else? What are those weird shotguns with flashhiders that troops in Vietnam had? Can i get those? ALso how can I get bayonet lugs on a shotgun and how useful/legal would that be?

Then there is also the poroblem of sights. The Ithaca has brass bead sights. Is thos good, bad, ok, or what? Do you really needs ghost rings and even tritium insters for a shotgun? I ws thinking that by attaching the ITI universal shotgun mount I could mount a M6 on the Ithaca and have a light and laser and have just the simple bead sights. It doesn;t seem like having a EoTech on a shotgun is all that good of an idea. Remember now, i am also trying to keep costs down.

Now I dont like the idea of using buckshot, I like the surgical targeting capability and the saftey margin of slugs. Are there frangible slugs out there? Is the Federal HydraShok slug good (Well I suppose the answer is yes).

BTW: The HK UC would be an alternative I am willing to accept. I guess reading the book made me enamored with the Ithaca and shotugns in general. Then again shotguns might be a better option. So is the Ithaca so much better/reliable than everything else or what?

Doggonit hotgun.gif hotgun.gif hotgun.gif
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:20:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:39:54 AM EST
I have a Mossberg 590 now but had an Ithica 37 for years.. I like the pump because as you cycle it, you are also pulling it back on target.. Both are excellent.. I chose the 590 because of increased capacity and its weather resistance.. Besides, it came with Ghost rings.. I added a mag light(shoots where it shines) to it...
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:59:18 AM EST
WOW! I don't think I have seen a post like that in awhile.

By the looks of your post you have a lot of questions. I would suggest that you do a lot more investigation before buying anything. If possible try some other guns out before buying anything.

You need to evaluate what you want the weapon for. The shotgun is better then a pistol when going to a gun fight IMO. If you are talking a home defense gun then the shotgun is the best choice. I am going to do something dangerous and assume that you are a novice to the shooting world? I would recommend a pump gun because of its overall simplicity and versatility IMO.

Don't believe everything you read about the supposed 1 shot stop pistols out on the market. If you are a novice the .45 is a poor choice for a first time defensive gun. The felt recoil is much greater in the .45, the ammo is more expensive which translates into less practice for most people. Practice is the most important thing with any weapon you choose. It doesn't matter how powerful the cartridge if you don't hit the threat with your shots.

There is a topic on the board about a possible NJ shoot being put together. Try to make it to that if possible so you can get a chance to try lots of different guns. Don't make any hasty decisions when it comes to buying a gun. If you make a bad choice it will only discourage you in the end.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:02:47 AM EST
As long as you don't short stroke the pumps you really can't beat em. The semi guns are really fast on follow ups. However some of them can be a little finikey about the shells you use. I like remington 870's for pump guns. It's just what I'm used too. Mossbergs seem a little bulky to me. Friends have them and love them. Slugs? Use your carbine instead. More accurate and friendly. However I will say slugs can be very accurate, but kick like hell. If you want to do a lot of space clearing use the shotgun with 00 or smaller pellets.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:04:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:47:50 AM EST
Ithaca 37 is a great shotgun, but to buy a trench gun version is $1,800.00 +, and a police / riot version is in the $450.00- $1,000.00 range depending on Vietnam era status, markings , etc. My whole family grew up on 37's, as about half of us are left-handed, and we like the bottom ejection.

That said, I also own a Scatterguns K-9 (11-87), though not as tricked out as Wave's , and and M1S90 (old pre-ban you can load an extra round on loading gate), then about 4-5 870's in different configurations.

I've been looking for an older Ithaca 37 riot-gun for my dad, for his retirement coming up, and it has been frustrating. I am tempted to just buy one, and have KKF add an extension to the mag-tube, and move the barrel lug, but that's $$$ and it don't seem right. I would think Ithaca could sell a bunch of SG's configured for defense with the extended magazine, but I don't make those decisions.

The older Winchester's and Ithaca's had the slam-fire (no disconnector) feature, which is part of what I want in mine, so it might be some time before I find what I want.

I like the pumps too, but honestly, the only malfunction I ever had with one of my auto's, was with my Benelli jamming when I was trying to see how fast I could shoot the whole magazine, and I'm guessing that was an operator induced error!

On the Benelli, not only does the bolt hold open, but you can crank a round out of the chamber, manually, and drop another in without racking one from the magazine. Good if you want to drop a slug in, or *special* round.

As to slugs vs buckshot, I like buckshot for most scenarios, and the right combination produces really tight patterns. You have to aim these tight groups. As mentioned Vang Comp'd barrels are great, and I also use Patternmaster chokes with good results. Bar-Sto / Vang have a new barrel for the Benelli that is Vang Comp'd, but I haven't been able to bring myself to spend $450.00 + shipping my shotgun two ways, yet! These shoot slugs as well as buckshot, and I like slugs for barracade work! (not that I have barracade work,, though)
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:33:18 AM EST
But aren't there reduced recoil slugs out there which are really nice for defense?

What is the danger of overpenetration with slugs? What types of slugs are there? I mean I have seen sabots and non sabots and hollowpoints but what difference does the sabot make? Are there frangible loads for defense out there?

So in all is the downward ejection function on the Ithaca good or it really doesn't make a difference? Also I heard that in Vietnam they used to just hold down the trigger and keep on pumping making it a sort of semi auto. This works because... (no disconnect?) and can I still do that with the modern 37 Homeland Security Model?

So Semi-autos are unreliable when loaded with lots of goodies and using low power rounds because the lack of recoil (and most semis are recoil operated so less recoil means less reliability cycling).

Also, you deem 000, 00, and #4 shot good enough to be fired and it will land in a nice tight group? I am worried of the stuff going all over the place. Slugs seem better (and a big heavy piece of hot lead larger than a .50 is quite intimidating.).

How well does porting reduce recoil? Is it worth it or doe sit just added too much noise like muzzle breaks on .223 rifles? And what about those flash hiders that troops in Vietnam had, can I get those or is that even a good idea?

Finally: It seems like the brass bead sight on Ithaca wont do even if I add the ITI M6. is this a real problem and should I consider getting a shotgun that has aftermarket ghost rings and tritium ghost rings available (like everything but the Ithaca, why doesn't the Ithaca have good sights available?).

Thanks for all the replies and hope to see some more. hey Donut Chaser... cops in my neighborhood drive at 70 mph in a 35 mph zone with sirens and all just to get fresh donuts from Dunkin Donuts. Do you also feel the sugar crave and do this?

Doggonit hotgun.gif
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:12:37 AM EST
Ok people, I just made some fast calculations:

Wilson Combat Professional 12G with ArmorTuff coating (Includes SureFire light, saddle, and tritium ghost rings) is about 1100 dollars.

Then form BlackHawk industries a 55 shell bandolier, an 8 shot forearm shell holder, a belt with two 25 round puches and a 20 round drop down pouch and a Chalker sling is about 300

Then 30 boxes of 5 rds. of #4 and 00 buckshot each and 20 boxes of Slugs and 10 boxes of 000 buckshot is about 300 again. So total Shotgun package with tons of goodies (meaning that I can take off a few hundred bucks if needed) is 1700 dollars with shipping and licensing included.

Now the HK USC with one mag is 1050 dollars. Then double mag clamp is 20 and three forearm rails and one receiver rail are 120 and then tritium sights are 170 and EoTech 552 is 300 and foregrip is 60. So Total of extras is 670. This doesn;t even include a light which if we take away the OeTehc (Iron sigths are ok until I can buy the EoTech would make an approx. 100 dollars decrease. Without light or EoTech it would be 300 less. Then ammo is 300 if I get 16 boxes FMj and 6 boxes HydraShok of .45 ACP and BlackHawk belt adn triple pouch are 70. So basically Even if I dont get all teh USC is a much more expensive package and doesn't give a lot more in terms of long range shooting or anything else.

It seems that the shotgun is the way to go and if I do for some reason buy the Ithaca 37 instead of the Wilson Combat then the price will be about 1000 dollars total. (Yeah but no ghostrings and 5 rounds suck. Plus the ITI M6 and shotgun mount are about 200)

So as you can see the shotgun seems the way to go if soemone can recommend some good slug ammo pref. frangible or good defense ammo.

Doggonit hotgun.gif
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:30:31 AM EST
I was just looking on the Ithaca Web-site, (cause you made me think of it) and the new free=floated slug gun sounds interesting, and a magazine extension would be a breeze to add on that. They also make a new waterfowl/turkey gun that way. This could be cool!

The slug gun claims MOA (I think) out to 200 yards. That's pretty damned good.

I don't like GR sights myself, and think they are slower than rifle sights. I think a good bead sight is plenty in close.

You must pattern your SG with any loads and KNOW what it shoots. I have seen a number of SG pattern VERY well at 25 yards, with no flyers. With Buckshot SG accuracy is very load sensitive in some shotguns, but really good, precise patterns can be had! Then you have 9 (00) 9mm sized pellets striking at near the same time and place, with devestating results.

The new Home defense does not have the slam-fire ability.

I saw a new rail system (Knights Armament?) yesterday, at my friends shop,and it would make adding a red-dot easy to a ghost ring, or beaded shotgun barrel. The one he had was for an 870, and I don't know if it comes for other models, or not.

Lot's of decisions, and weight becomes a factor, too!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:34:02 AM EST

Or at least, a NJ mall ninja...

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 1:24:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 1:37:15 PM EST by Doggonit]
Pardon Me? A Mall ninja you say? What is that?

You know what I've had IT! I just want a PRC-126 to call in all the air support, naval and ground arty possible including cruise missles. How hard would it be to get a PRC-126?

J/K, too bad that that rail your friend got probably isn't made for Ithaca's. So bead sights are ok you say? What about #4 shot? That would be what, .240 in caliber and 47 of them if its a 3 incher?

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:01:09 PM EST
Any ideas people? Any comments, suggestions, etc? What is a mall ninja?

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:19:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
Any ideas people? Any comments, suggestions, etc? What is a mall ninja?

A mall ninja is everyones' greatest fear. They lurk around corners of the local malls. They seek to strike at a momenent notice for the dreaded mall rat.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:21:44 PM EST
Move out of NJ!! I wont go back :) The free states of America are just over the Delaware :)
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:28:05 PM EST

Homeland security? This one packs more shells!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 8:02:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 8:02:52 PM EST by RBAD]
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 3:47:56 PM EST
It must be something in the ocean / salt water. First California goes to hell and now New Jersey! Christ, you guys don't deserved to have a Battleship named after that State! Even de-commissioned, your State disgraces the Ship & men who served aboard Her. I'D MOVE TO A FREE STATE & THEN TELL THEM WHY THEY LOST YOUR TAX MONEY ! You got to hit the fucking liberal where it hurts...IN THE POCKET !
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