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Posted: 10/18/2004 5:11:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 6:06:02 AM EDT by ANGST]
ok budget is about $600

The purpose of the rifle is 1) FUN ! 2) having something nifty. (the serious defensive duties are taken care of with other stuff)

Top choices so far are :

Beretta Storm
Pros :
-I have a Beretta 92 and can get the version that uses the same magazines
-has rail to mount all kinds of stuff to.
-I like Berettas
-Feels very nice when I am holding it.
-Availible at the local gunshop
Cons:
-No evil features
-no reliable 25+ round magazines

Vector Uzi carbine
Pros:
- Very evil looking
- Folding stock / Bayonet lug
- 25 round magazines cheap and plentiful
- very adaptable to WECSOG-ing
Cons:
- Vector is not shipping for about 2 months
- When they ship they may not come with a barrel (coupon for a barrel when they get them)
- not as ergonomical as a carbine
- Gonna have to deal with a transfer.

I have ruled out the AR type 9mm as I belive they are ; out of my budget , no mag blocks seem to be redily availible, and I'd like something a little different.

I was also not impressed with the Kel-Tec Sub-2000


Thoughts ? anything I am not thinking of ?

Any other suggestions ?

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:19:51 AM EDT
I have a sub 2k with beretta mags and have 30 rounders for it that work as well as the mecgar original 10. I never thought having a weapon that folds down into a little package would be a plus, it really annoyed me at first. now i don't want it any other way. it did give me feed problems at first, but KT will keep working at them until the gun functions perfectly or they'll replace it with one that does. the storm sure looks nice but you can get a KT and a used revolver or a couple of SKS's for the price.

i would not do business with vector, those guys used to be hesse.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:25:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:46:37 AM EDT by Rabbit9]
I'm shooting a Colt 9mm. If I had $600 to spend, I'd buy the UZI, and never look back.

I run our local tactical rifle matches, and I've had the opportunity to see a couple of the Beretta Storm's in action and fire a few rounds myself; I was not impressed. The after-market magazines would not stay in the gun, and the trigger was terrible. I did not find the ergonomics of the Storm nearly as good as one might expect from a polymer firearm.

I've also had the pleasure of seeing UZI's hang in there with the AR's and HK's. They're very accurate, quick on target, and ULTRA dependable. If I keep this up, I may just talk myself into one of the UZI's.

Of course, in the land of the PCC.....the AR is KING.

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:28:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By iveseenalittleontv:
i would not do business with vector, those guys used to be hesse.



I believe that you're confusing Vector (a very reputable company), with Vulcan (aka Hesse).
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:41:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By iveseenalittleontv:
i would not do business with vector, those guys used to be hesse.



I believe that you're confusing Vector (a very reputable company), with Vulcan (aka Hesse).



Vector is highly respected, they bought out Group Industries stuff when they went under I belive.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:28:17 AM EDT
doh, thanks guys.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:29:23 AM EDT
Vector.....dude, come-on.....IT'S AN UZI!!!!!!!!well, at least a copy.


excellent quality and service and just the ability to say..."Oh, yeah...I have an uzi" that'll piss off any anti-gun liberal with-in 20 feet at least.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 9:04:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 9:05:00 AM EDT by HardShell]
I didn't realize the Vector UZIs were in that price range... If you are going to SBR it, then go with the UZI. Otherwise, go with the Storm.

I had an IMI UZI carbine with all of the goodies back before the ban. But SBRs are not allowed in Alabama (full-auto and suppression are, but no SBR/SBS ), and it just never did look right to me with the 16" bbl (even with a fake can on it), and I traded it. (I traded a HK94A3 for the same reason, also before the ban... ).

I still have several 9mm carbines, including a Storm. I love my Storm.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 10:57:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 11:22:54 AM EDT by monkeyman]
I have an UZI I pieced together during the ban. Works well and is lots fun to shoot.

Might want to look at a M11/9mm type carbine. There are some out right now that use sten mags which are pretty cheap. Of couse they are ugly as hell. I think those are called MPA30 or something similar.

Also, the Ruger patrol rifle comes to mind as does the Marlin 9. If you already have a Glock you could buy one of those Carbine Conversion Units that slides on your existing pistol frame.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:01:53 PM EDT
My vote is for Vector Carbine.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:35:16 PM EDT
I really like my Storm in 9mm. I put off buying one as I was waiting for them to start shipping in .45 ACP.
Anyhow, I couldn't wait and bought one and it has been 100% reliable and 100% fun to shoot.

I never really considered mine a home defense gun although it has definitely been reliable enough for one. I'd rather just use a handgun for home defense. More discreet especially if I find it necessary to venture outside. If I feel the need for a rifle I will grab something other than a pistol caliber.

The 10-round mags mine came with really suck but getting some 15-round mags made a big difference.

I have a red dot sight mounted on mine and it is a lot of fun to shoot.

With the iron sights its easy to keep all shots on a standard 6" circle at 25 yards shooting as fast as the carbine will function.

As far as looks go its black and as soon as I can get the barrel threaded it will have an evil flash suppressor on it. I haven't decided on a fake 5", a Phantom or a standard A2 Flash suppressor yet. I want to get the barrel threaded and try all three and see which one looks best.

Mine is set up for a right handed shooter but I believe all controls are able to switch to lefty as well as the ejection.

Controls are well laid out. The bolt release is easily reached with my thumb and the magazine release is just enough of a reach to prevent an accidental ejection of the magazine. The charging handle is easily switched but I like to keep mine on the left side just as an FAL is charged. Very convenient. The safety is a cross bolt style that is de-activated by the trigger finger which makes it easy to keep the safety on until ready to shoot and then you don't have to disrupt my position. Then to put the safety on I use my left hand.

My only complaint is that the trigger is a bit heavier than I would prefer but I its a minor issue considering this gun's purpose.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:18:48 PM EDT
Uzi first, Storm second.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:21:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 5:33:21 PM EDT
Vector Uzi or AR-15 in 9mm.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:37:27 PM EDT
I considered the same choice and ended up with the Storm....here's why.

First, after shooting both I knew the Storm was more accurate. Plus, it took std. 92 mags which I had and I liked the idea of the same mags feeding both guns. The MecGar 20 rounders are great, and some 30 rounders are ok...depends on the maker. The mag drop issue is easily fixed - super easy.
www.berettaforum.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000325

Second, the Storm is easier to accessorize with useful features. For what I would spend on the UZI, I had full rail system, vertical grip and a good halo dot scope.

Third, the Storm feels much better to me, ergonomically. Flip down sights, intuitive, fast controls and it's very light. Hell, you can even bump fire it.

Lastly, the UZI with a long barrel looks f**king retarded...so for me it was an additional $200 and a tax stamp to get it looking like a real UZI.

I don't regret it a bit, the Storm is wonderful. After 1,000 rounds, no hiccups and the trigger is easily smoothed out with some liberal stoning of bearing surfaces. Most guns come with shitty triggers nowadays.

Cheers.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:32:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:29:41 AM EDT by HardShell]

Originally Posted By Princeton:
... Mine is set up for a right handed shooter but I believe all controls are able to switch to lefty as well as the ejection...



You are correct about that.


... The bolt release is easily reached with my thumb and the magazine release is just enough of a reach to prevent an accidental ejection of the magazine.


I didn't like the mag-release - my thumb was too short to comfortably activate it without significantly changing my grip. I reversed the mag-release to the "left-hand set-up" (even though I'm right-handed) and I use my trigger finger to eject mags a la my ARs. This works well for me.


The charging handle is easily switched but I like to keep mine on the left side just as an FAL is charged. Very convenient.


I just bought an extra CH and now have one on both sides - very versatile!

Like I said above, I love my Storm...

Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:59:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:01:52 AM EDT by Princeton]

Beretta Storm
Cons:
-No evil features



Besides, California has deemed this rifle to be an assault weapon and any rifle on their list is on mine!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:44:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:51:37 AM EDT by monkeyman]
I know the UZI is fugly, but the Storm won't exactly win any beauty contests either. Kinda looks like the product of the unholy marriage of a Hi-Point and a Kel-Tec Sub2K.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 7:04:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
I know the UZI is fugly, but the Storm won't exactly win any beauty contests either. Kinda looks like the product of the unholy marriage of a Hi-Point and a Kel-Tec Sub2K.



"Eye of the beholder" and all that ..
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:22:14 AM EDT
I had an original IMI Model A uzi back in 2000-- it's the only gun I've sold that I miss.

Terribly.

Inexpensive, reliable, and tough-- and that's just the mags! It's a wonderful high capacity firearm that can easily SBR'ed or legally converted using a registered bolt. Spare parts are common as water-- you can still get an uzi parts kit for under $300.00. The 16" barrel isn't pretty, but let me tell you that it is SURPRISINGLY accurate.

If you want it to be a .22lr, .45acp, or even a .41AE-- conversion kits are available.

Uzi. You won't be disappointed.

Missing his to this day,

Mike
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:53:27 AM EDT
I like my Uzi. very reliable, really compact with the folder, and quite possible the EASIEST CLEANING gun I have- maybe 10 minutes tops, and has a consistent, if heavy trigger. On the downside it is HEAVY and I always seem to tweak my wrist (have some problems from drafting on the PC all day) and everyone seems to dislike the grip safety. The lack of a bolt hold open takes a little getting used to if you usually shoot ARs, and did make the one jam I had very awkward to clear (magazine spring failed an a couple of rounds got in the action)

I have handled a Beretta and the eergonomics and weight are better than an Uzi. That being said, I did not care for the front sight- I have heard that sometimes peole confuse the protective wings for the sight post and goof up their groupings. I think the ability to use beretta mags is a definite plus if you have a Beretta handgun...I do not.

Dawg

Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:54:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ANGST:
ok budget is about $600

The purpose of the rifle is 1) FUN ! 2) having something nifty. (the serious defensive duties are taken care of with other stuff)




Sorry, I missed that statement. if it is a fun gun, go Uzi all the way. A Beretta storm will not get chicks like the Uzi will!

Not to mention there were no Beretta Storms in Miami Vice!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:02:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
9mm upper for your AR... you can easily find one used for $500 and a VM Hytech mag block for around $100 used and you can use unmodified uzi mags in it. I know you didn;t mention an AR, but its an option for sure in that price range.



+1

Colt_SBR
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:12:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dawg180:
... Not to mention there were no Beretta Storms in Miami Vice!



10 to 1 there will be at least one in the new MV movie, though...
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:11:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
9mm upper for your AR... you can easily find one used for $500 and a VM Hytech mag block for around $100 used and you can use unmodified uzi mags in it. I know you didn;t mention an AR, but its an option for sure in that price range.



I think we may have different definitions of "easy" :)

I have not seen any lately that I could get my hands on. I would only want a "preban" upper
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:28:51 AM EDT
I don't know about the Storm, but the Uzi sucks. The controls suck, the ergs suck, the sights are actually OK but too low to use. I prefer a 9mm AR15. Oh yeah, the Uzi has that gay ass grip safety thats a pain to depress after a short while.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 11:48:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:15:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 12:15:24 PM EDT by ANGST]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Originally Posted By ANGST:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
9mm upper for your AR... you can easily find one used for $500 and a VM Hytech mag block for around $100 used and you can use unmodified uzi mags in it. I know you didn;t mention an AR, but its an option for sure in that price range.



I think we may have different definitions of "easy" :)

I have not seen any lately that I could get my hands on. I would only want a "preban" upper



So thread the barrel and put a flash hider on it... really not needed on a 16 inch AR in 9mm... I've used mine extensively at night and there is very little flash to hide. Are you going to put a bayonet on a 9mm upper? Buy what you want of course, in the end you are the one that has to be happy, but I don't see the need for a flash hider on a 16 inch 9mm AR upper and I see no need for a bayo lug. I'm quite happy having my "Post-ban" upper on a NY "pre-ban" lower and able to have a collapsible stock. But like I said, in the end you need to be happy... but a post-ban barrel is a thread die and a flash hider away to be what you want.




Function is second to fashion in this little project.....


Though being a decently shooting gun is still important, or I'd just get an airsoft
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:25:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:25:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
I have thought about getting a 5 1/2 inch Commando flash hider and having my barrel chopped and flash hidden... would look totally wicked and from what I remember reading there isn't much velocity gain beyond like 12 inches of barrel... Can anybody confirm that?



That's correct, 12" is about perfect for 9mm. After that, with most pistol propellants, you start losing velocity because the fast-burning powder doesn't keep the momentum going....barrel drag starts in and slows you down.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:44:40 PM EDT
I like the Beretta Storm myself would buy one if I did not spend so much on my last 2 guns
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:12:39 AM EDT
I have both and I love them both. They are two totally different beasts. The UZI (my is a pre-ban)is VERY heavy and is a tack driver at 100 yards. Very smooth to shoot and very little recoil. The Storm is much lighter and also a tack driver at 100 yards. The recoil is about the same as the UZI. Now if my life depended on one of these guns I would grab my UZI without a second thought. The Storm IMO is made to be a "fun" gun. The UZI was born out of military need. Having said this the Storm is much more comforatable and has many creature comforts that the UZI does not have.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:04:50 AM EDT
Get the vector, it will outlast your great grand children.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:54:25 PM EDT
Get the Vector, if you want to put AR shit on a gun put it on an AR not a 9mm carbine.

I have shot both, I own the Vector UZI, it's my fun gun. The Beretta is just too politically correct for me. Though down the line I will probably buy one just for the hell of it.

Ergonomics? Who fuggin cares? It's a fuggin UZI!!!
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:07:11 PM EDT
600$ I have a RRA 9mm and it's fun, but for pure cheap plinking, I started with (and just bought ANOTHER) pc9.

since everyone else will tell you bout storm and 9mm ar's I'll tell you about pc9.
MAgs are dirt cheap and the decent ones never fail - e.g. ruger factory / mec-gar / most 10 or 15 rounders, etc.
ammo is dirt cheap. the gun is mag sensitive, not ammo sensitive. you cheap out on mags, you'll know it.
accuracy is delightful / irons or red dot. On my old one I used the irons, on my new one I'm putting a rail I have on it with a holosight.
She's heavy with a damn crisp trigger. Breaks QUICK and takes awhile to get used to.
You're not gonna break this gun.
A monkey could FULLY disassemble and clean it.
BUT we'll never have alternative stocks for them b/c alot of the trigger/hammer is part of the stock.
GREAT affordable RIFLE. got my first one used for 375, second for 335.
I knock bill ruger and ruger's policies as much as the next guy, but they make cheap, functional, attractive and bang-for-buck great guns.

MY rra9mm works just as well if not better than my buddy's colt. Mags that BHO are MAD LOOT. I just bought 6 for 75 each (colt) and am having ten more converted from regular uzi mags (3 for the mags plus 28 for conversion) and ten more from SA ar9mm mags (10 each for conversion.

Got all the goodies on the AR-one too.

I've played with the storm, seems nice but overpriced, frankly. I wouldn't hesitate getting any of the three - but know that for accesories the AR rocks, the storms rails cost extra and everyone's waiting for the .45 one anyway, and also know that my first pc9 ran over a thousand rounds without a cleaning with only FTF's coming from crappy 30-rounders I had. stay away from those.

I have no experience with any uzi-clone, but those are cthe cheapest mags of all.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:54:58 AM EDT
FI it were me with the $600 bucks right now (and I wisj it was) I'd actually be torn between the Uzi and a 9mm AR. Both are on the essential evil gun list. I think I'd go with the Uzi since I have an Ar and I like to diversify.

btw: To me, the potential of an SBR is a PRO, not a CON.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 9:42:19 AM EDT
OK you 3 guys seel me your Colts !

I'll take all 3 !
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 10:32:05 AM EDT
Here's a few pics of the Vector and a few of my other favorite things.


Folded Wasr10, Glocks 21 & 17, and Vector Uzi with collapsed stock.


Vector UZI & Franken AK



Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:10:19 AM EDT
The price of a new Vector UZI is hard to beat. Full-capacity, high quality magazines are plentiful and cheap - as are other accessories.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:30:22 PM EDT
I'm giving it til Jan 1 or so, if the Uzi isn't avalible by then I will probably go with a storm
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:39:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ANGST:
I'm giving it til Jan 1 or so, if the Uzi isn't avalible by then I will probably go with a storm



I don't foresee Vector Uzi's being available forever. If you got the cash or can layaway the gun somewhere, I would get it now.

These are very polictically incorrect. My theory is get it while the getting is good. If you don't have the cash fine, but if you do, I'd jump on it.

I wish I had the cash when those Post Ban Stery AUG's and SPP's came in. There was only a few of them imported, but now they are next to impossible to find.

I put the UZI in that category.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 3:55:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drobs:

Originally Posted By ANGST:
I'm giving it til Jan 1 or so, if the Uzi isn't avalible by then I will probably go with a storm



I don't foresee Vector Uzi's being available forever. If you got the cash or can layaway the gun somewhere, I would get it now.

These are very polictically incorrect. My theory is get it while the getting is good. If you don't have the cash fine, but if you do, I'd jump on it.

I wish I had the cash when those Post Ban Stery AUG's and SPP's came in. There was only a few of them imported, but now they are next to impossible to find.

I put the UZI in that category.



If Vecotr can't get any out in 3 months it gonna start looking like the Shrike to me.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:55:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ANGST:
If Vecotr can't get any out in 3 months it gonna start looking like the Shrike to me.



Except that the SHRIKE never was, and the UZI has been in production for some time.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 6:46:53 PM EDT
can the uzi's be bumpfired?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:25:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By inferno715:
can the uzi's be bumpfired?



Yup. Seen it done, tho it's awkward.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 4:07:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By ANGST:
If Vecotr can't get any out in 3 months it gonna start looking like the Shrike to me.



Except that the SHRIKE never was, and the UZI has been in production for some time.




...but ....but I saw a picture of a shrike !!!

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:55:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By inferno715:
can the uzi's be bumpfired?



I haven't gotten the chance to try yet but figure I could put a big rubber band around the grip safety and give it a try. I've heard of individuals pinning the grip safety.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 12:31:31 PM EDT
doh! forgot about the grip safety.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 5:06:13 PM EDT
For that money I'd go with the UZI, I've already got a Colt 9mm Carbine and a Marlin Camp9 with no yearning to get a Storm. Plus the semi UZI will go great next to my full-auto Vector UZI.
Link Posted: 10/31/2004 3:16:54 PM EDT
The Beretta Storm is the biggest piece of shit I have ever owned! I had to wait 6 months for it to come in, then only had it for a coupla months before sending it back.

Problems:

Sling stud made of steel, under bbl retractable rail made of plastic. These parts interface. The first time I pulled the sling tight, I rounded out the mortise in the rail. Neat.

Big ol' slide stop. Big ol' thumb. These parts interface. Bolt kept locking open when gun fired. Neat.

Bunch of cool accessories available...someday. Oh, by the way. if you want to mount the top rail. you get to drill the plastic to access the screw threads! Fortunately, I got rid of the POS before the (9 month back-ordered) parts came in.

Reversable/ambi features: Great idea, but what they fail to mention is that the ejection port on the left side (for righties) is covered with a piece of plastic that is slotted and allows a shit load of hot gases to blow past your face when you have a case head failure. When this happened to me, I decided that it was past time to get rid of this weapon. And if the gas/particles hadn't been a big enough convincer, the bolt parts (extractor and spring, ejector/extractor clamp) hanging out of the ejection port were. Neat.
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