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4/22/2019 5:32:20 PM
Posted: 8/6/2006 7:49:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2006 4:28:42 PM EDT by HK_Shooter_03]
-See Poll-


ETA: I've never been asked...
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 7:51:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2006 9:39:19 PM EDT by m-dc]
.
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 9:10:51 PM EDT
I've never been asked . however I've been told by several people that my suppresors were illegal. I'd then try to explain the process some and show them my stamp . I've always offered to let them try them for a couple of shots to see what they are like. some say YES and others say no ( while still thinking there is something shady going on)
Link Posted: 8/6/2006 9:34:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 4:32:17 AM EDT
I was shooting at the local quarry and a Sheriff pulled up with a big smile, and said "I gotta take a look at your paperwork". I invited him to run a few mags, but he declined. I keep a copy of all my Title II stuff in my glove box, and pulled out and offered him the whole wad of copies. He didn't have a clue what he was looking at, so I began to explain what he should be looking for, and finally just gave him a copy of one of my form 4's for his own personal reference.

I imagine that most LEO's aren't too well schooled on BATFE forms, mostly because it's not a problem. If there were a bunch of autos around, and they were illegal, they'd be paying a lot more attention and checking everything that might be unpapered.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:22:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 12:30:29 PM EDT
Only once, by someone unqualified to do so. Last I checked, these were tax documents, and they were supposed to be viewed in confidence by agents assigned formerly to the Dept. of the Treasury, and whose branch is now under Homeland Security.

Long story short, the guy running the NRA range is neither Homeland Security, Dept. of the Treasury, or ATF, soooooo....

<­BR>



I got kicked off the line for the day.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 1:28:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 2:01:47 PM EDT
4 out of 10 times the range officer will ask for my Form1
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 2:19:44 PM EDT
I just made sure that I showed my tax stamp to the club's gossip-monger and explained the process to him... Now every single member of the gun club knows that my toys are 100% legal and no one even makes a comment about not knowing that MGs were even legal
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 4:07:30 PM EDT
I've been asked twice at the range. I always keep a copy with me so it was no problem.

Ken
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 4:29:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2006 4:31:28 PM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By tony_k:
You're correct, they are confidential tax documents, just like your annual 1040 return. No one has the right to demand to see them without a subpoena.


Just like a counterfeit 1040, the guy running the NRA HQ Range wouldn't know a counterfeit F1/F4 if it jumped up and bit him in the ass. If this is really as big an issue as Captain Kangaroo made it on this particular day, maybe it should be posted and/or queried when they have you standing there checking in for 5 minutes.

While good to keep 90% of the people honest, it's a rather pointless exercise -- isn't it?

You know, kind of like the TSA screenings at airports.


--A private range has the legal right to refuse to allow you to shoot if you don't show them your forms.


Sure they do....

They also have a duty to approach paying customers and NRA life members with a tone of respect. They should also post rules such as "Announce all Suppressors and SBR's before shooting."

While a shooter is shooting, it's best to not come up behind a shooter and say, "Hey bud, ya got paperwork for that there silencer? It's really freaking out the other shooters."

I believe it's all about approach, demeanor and professionalism. The above quote was not for dramatic effect, it was the ACTUAL exchange that the RO had with me while I was sitting at a bench sighting in the M16 w/ suppressor.

Oddly enough, I had never been asked before for a .22 suppressor, or 9mm SBR's, or 5.56 SBR's. However a 5.56 can warranted the "Bubba Inquisition".

In the future, I'll be sure to announce the NFA stuff at the NRA HQ Range. I wouldn't want them to stroke out.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 4:54:39 PM EDT
I've never been asked but, I often keep the paperwork in plain sight.

I normally bring three or more guns to shoot and my paperwork is sitting underneath one of the guns I'm not using if anyone passing by wants to look.

That's probably why I've never been asked.


I've stashed several copies wherever they might be needed (Car, Gun Case, Safe, Shooting Bag, File Cabinet).


I took 10 copies of my father's Form 1 and 10 copies of my 5320.20 to Arizona and I didn't have to use any of them.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 5:42:46 PM EDT
The sheriffs office has copies of approved form 4's for every single NFA item I own, my C&R license, and I even take them the transfer out when I sell one.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 5:45:38 PM EDT
I shoot at an indoor range and they require the paperwork every time I shoot.

I carry the paperwork with the weapons.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 5:53:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Colt_SBR:
I shoot at an indoor range and they require the paperwork every time I shoot.

That's the only time I've been asked for paperwork, too.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 5:57:43 PM EDT
Nobody ever bothered me. We have local AR15 shoots here with all kinds of hardware, Sheriff has showed up 1 time, the first time we cut loose with everything... they was greeted by fellow AR15 LE in attendance, they just stood back, watched a little and left.. They not been back since. I got stopped by Highway Patrol, invited the officer to the shoot, it was just minutes away up the road, he just smiled and said to have fun, guns in back did not bother him.
Link Posted: 8/7/2006 7:19:13 PM EDT
look right in there face and say... "i kill people for money"

Link Posted: 8/7/2006 7:52:03 PM EDT
about the 3rd time at the same indoor range they finally asked to see the "papers". the range guy looked at it for a minuteand let me go shoot. the best part is some mook told me i need a special approval from the atf to have the gun out of my house. oh man i guess i forgot to get the id10t from approved, mabye next time.
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 4:04:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2006 5:19:42 PM EDT by AR9mm]
Only one time.

I was shooting at a public range (Markham Park) on a machinegun night and standing back watching someone else shoot my 16 (he didn't look like he should ever be around any weapon), you couldn't tell by looking it was my gun. A RO walks by and is asked by the shooter next to me if he has checked for paperwork on the guy with the 16, there may be illegal guns here. The RO says loudly, its not my job or business, and I aint the pooolice. Call them if you have a problem.

I got a kick out of that. The organizer of the shoot latter came by and asked for the paperwork. I saw he was looking at the top of the form instead of the numbers for the gun. Before I could say anything he handed them back and said I was curious who you bought the gun from because it wasn't from me, and there is not a lot of dealers around here. He said thanks, and left.

Link Posted: 8/8/2006 5:03:46 AM EDT
papieren bitte?
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 3:48:29 PM EDT
They check the serial number of the class 3 item with the serial number on the paperwork. Most of the time, I don't think they know what they are looking at.


Link Posted: 8/8/2006 4:06:03 PM EDT
never been asked
Link Posted: 8/8/2006 8:25:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2006 8:29:43 PM EDT by booker3557]
This incident just happened last Saturday, down here in South Texas. I was invited to shoot by a friend of mine who is Class 3 Dealer and who happens to be also a police officer. We were at a private range with our sons. Mine is 11 years old and his is 7.

As we were wrapping up and finishing a drum with the AM 180, a patrol car pulls up. The local PD couldn't drive in with his cruiser because the gate was locked. One of the range rules is to always keep the gate locked. The local PD jumped the fence. He walked over and asked us if we are shooting machine guns. My friend said yes we are. My friend identified himself as a dealer and also a police officer with another town. The local PD requested that we stop shooting because some of the residents were complaining. My friend said that this is a private, legal range and we are shooting with legal MG(s) and that we can shoot whatever we want to shoot. He offered to show him the paperwork for all the weapons if he wanted to see them. The local PD declined and he requested again that we stop shooting. This is where it got interesting, my friend now said that since he already has checked us out and that we are not doing anything illegal, the local PD now has no legal business to be in the range. In fact, he is now trespassing because this is private property and that he had jumped the fence. The local PD said that we can file a complaint if we want to. My friend said that it is not necessary, only that he can't force us to stop shooting. My friend even offered to talk to his chief but the local PD declined and left. We watched him jump over the fence again and drove off.

It was good thing we were done for the day. We then proceeded to pack up and go home. I was very impressed with the way my friend handled the situation. His tone was very professional and straight forward.
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 5:31:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tony_k:
--And an LE officer has the legal right to confiscate NFA items until their registration status can be confirmed.


Depends on individual state law.

Does a law officer have the right to seize your Title I weapon pending proof it is legally owned by you?

Again, depends on state law.

That said, I of course would show my paperwork to local law.
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 7:08:21 PM EDT
I'm another one in the "Never been asked" camp.
Link Posted: 8/9/2006 7:52:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2006 6:42:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2006 6:48:12 AM EDT by draver]
This discussion raises an interesting point.

If an LEO asks for your "Papers" I suppose you could test his knowledge by saying, "Sure, what did you want to see?". A bill of sale would establish ownership for most items. I live in Oregon, and it has a statute that makes an exception for auto firearms. If he knows about the Form 4's, he should also know they are tax forms, and protected by privacy laws. Seems kinda like a "Catch 22". You're required to have them with you, but legally don't have to provide them without a subpoena. You are required to present them to an ATF Officer if requested, per the BATFE website.


Here's a summary from the NRA-ILA website pertaining to Oregon law.

NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT FIREARMS

"It is lawful to possess a machine gun provided it is registered in conformity with federal law and if the person has in the person`s immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered under federal law."

Anyway, this is all just my mind wandering, I generally enjoy my contacts with LEO's and don't play cat & mouse just to jerk someone's chain.

Link Posted: 8/12/2006 12:27:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

They also have a duty to approach paying customers and NRA life members with a tone of respect. They should also post rules such as "Announce all Suppressors and SBR's before shooting."



Uh - OK. Guess I musta missed that anyone anywhere has a duty to treat anyone with a "tone of respect". Sounds to my like they got straight to the point by asking you if you had your paperwork, and didn't leave you guessing as to why - they told you some people were freaking out about it. The guy was doing his job. Sounds to me like the guy didn't bow to your ego enough for your liking, and you took offense. I wouldn't brag about that.
Link Posted: 8/12/2006 1:11:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Colt_SBR:
I shoot at an indoor range and they require the paperwork every time I shoot.

I carry the paperwork with the weapons.


Must be Knight's on U.S. 19.


I went there once. Once.
Link Posted: 8/13/2006 5:50:43 AM EDT
the police show up half the time. to check papers, no big deal, most of the time they don't know what they are looking at, and I have to explain.
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 2:01:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2006 3:22:22 PM EDT
Weekend before last I am at an indoor shooting range in Austin.

As I am signing in there is a guy talking with the staff and owner about the MP5 40 he has with him. The owner starts talking about his own MP5, which must be worth about $30k in his opinion because it ultra rare. See its not a converted HK94 its a transferable factory MP5 because "it has MP5 rollmarked on top".

I get to my lane and as soon as I uncase my SBR HK94 the RO goes to the front desk and grabs the owner.The owner and RO come over and the owner asks me for my papers, which I pulled out as soon as the RO took off.

The owner spends the next 5 minutes finger fucking my gun and paperwork, and asks me "so this thing is a semi?"

I say "Yeah I just got it back from IGF."

He tells me "I have a real Mp5, see where yours says HK94, mine says MP5."

I say "Well for another $150 Jayson would have done that for me too, he does it so clean you'd never know the difference, but I would feel like a poser if I did it before I had saved up enough for a tranferable sear."

He gives me a funny look and lets me shoot.
Link Posted: 8/15/2006 5:39:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2006 5:41:13 PM EDT by nationwide]

Originally Posted By tony_k:

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By tony_k:
--And an LE officer has the legal right to confiscate NFA items until their registration status can be confirmed.


Depends on individual state law.

Does a law officer have the right to seize your Title I weapon pending proof it is legally owned by you?

Again, depends on state law.

That said, I of course would show my paperwork to local law.

Which states allow you to keep possession of a machine gun without showing proof that it is registered? You mean there are places where LE will let you drive away with an MG on nothing more than your personal promise that it's a legal MG?

I don't know whether I want to move there ... or stay far, far away.


Neither Wyoming nor Montana have any statutes addressing NFA type weapons, except Montana's regulation allowing homebuilt machine guns for "scientific or research purposes". Therefore no city, county, or state LEO has any jurisdicition over your NFA weapons, as long as their use is legal (ie, not committing an offense with them.)

ETA: I haven't been asked... yet.
Link Posted: 8/17/2006 6:16:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2006 6:18:03 PM EDT by recoiljunky]
Never been asked, but I have been told, "You know that [suppressor] is illegal, right?"

To which I replied, "It's ok, I'm a lawyer."

Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:47:10 PM EDT
i never have, but keep them handy.

i have seen one person show them to an LEO. well, conservation officer to be exact. he openly admitted he had no idea what he was looking at. no big suprise there though.......
Link Posted: 8/22/2006 6:59:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hrd2thecore:
Weekend before last I am at an indoor shooting range in Austin.


Was that Red's?

They asked me for SBR papers. But it wasn't a big ordeal.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:55:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPDSNYPR:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

They also have a duty to approach paying customers and NRA life members with a tone of respect. They should also post rules such as "Announce all Suppressors and SBR's before shooting."



Uh - OK. Guess I musta missed that anyone anywhere has a duty to treat anyone with a "tone of respect". Sounds to my like they got straight to the point by asking you if you had your paperwork, and didn't leave you guessing as to why - they told you some people were freaking out about it. The guy was doing his job. Sounds to me like the guy didn't bow to your ego enough for your liking, and you took offense. I wouldn't brag about that.


Actually what he did was act like an assclown. I've seen more respect shown at that range to people who have shot out lights, hit the wall, shot the floor, hit the automated carriers, carried hot weapons off the line, dropped weapons on the floor, etc.

I'm sure senior management of the NRA would agree that it's a little "unbecoming" for an employee of the NRA to address it's membership with "Hey Bud".

Further, if they are so concerned about suppressors, and their effect on the rest of the sheep on the line, why not write up an "elevator statement" to assuage their unfounded fears??? This is the NRA HQ Range after all.

You know, something along the lines of, "Yes sir, I understand you are concerned about the suppressor being fired. We have them shoot here a lot, they are perfectly legal to own. As a legal as any other weapon you own, and require stringent background checks from the federal governement to possess. Yes sir, 100% legal and fully welcomed here."

In fact, had I checked in with the front desk, as they apparently require in the UNPOSTED range rules, I'm not sure that would have calmed the douchebag that was "freaked out" by a suppressor. Though a professional statement to the fearful sheep, from the NRA personnel, certainly COULD have....

Instead, he chose to address me WHILE firing, as "Hey Bud".

Yeah, as a paying customer, and NRA life member, I expect a little more courtesy. In return I would have offered the utmost in courtesy back to the range personnel as they have one helluva busy and thankless job there.

In 8 years or so shooting there, that was my FIRST, and ONLY, bad experience with range personnel.
Link Posted: 8/24/2006 4:19:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By Hrd2thecore:
Weekend before last I am at an indoor shooting range in Austin.


Was that Red's?

They asked me for SBR papers. But it wasn't a big ordeal.


Reds always asks for my paperwork and they have always been very nice about it as well.
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