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Posted: 4/2/2008 11:48:13 AM EST
Hey guys, I'm going to be shooting a 3-gun match at the end of the month, so I've been looking around for a high cap. shotgun on the cheap.

Stopped into Academy just so I could see what they had (after extensive online research, of course ) and handled this H&R made gun.

I gotta tell you, other than being heavier than the Mossberg, this gun looks and feels very well made.

I got it for $179 before tax and I feel like I got a pretty good deal.

Anybody have any opinions/reviews/owners who'd like to chime in? I'm taking it to the range tomorrow so I'll have an update then.

Link Posted: 4/2/2008 2:52:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/2/2008 2:54:55 PM EST by MAX100]
Here is a review I worte on the Protector and the Norinco 982 shotguns. They are both made by Norinco the only difference in the two shotguns is the Protector has a different style receiver and a bead sight.


Norinco 982 and Pardner Protector review with pictures Link;

www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82794&highlight=norinco+982

Norinco 982 with custom mag tube extension 7+1 capacity

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/MAX100/GCNOR982-1.jpg


Pardner Pump Protector with custom mag tube extension 7+1 capacity

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/MAX100/GCPP-1.jpg



GC
Link Posted: 4/2/2008 4:41:34 PM EST
I have been looking at one to keep my mavrick 88 and benelli super nova company.
The cheapest they have them aroud here is $200. I haven't heard anything bad about them, expect people who hate them because they are made in china.
Link Posted: 4/3/2008 8:37:41 AM EST
I think my mom got a 28" synthetic for $159 over a year ago. I cut it back to 18.5". It's a good enough gun, but I couldn't justify paying what you guys are paying, when Wal Mart had a 870 SUPER MAG on sale for $199 a while back.
Link Posted: 4/4/2008 7:58:16 AM EST
Like I have said in many of MAX's threads, these may be decent guns, but they are a very poor choice when a used 870 can be had so cheaply.

What MAX often fails to mention is that those "custom" extensions are manufactured and sold by him...
Link Posted: 4/4/2008 8:40:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/6/2008 10:32:42 AM EST by MAX100]
What patrol120 Failed to mention is he has no experience what so ever with the Norinco 982 and the Pardner Pump shotguns. I don't believe he has even seen one in person. He also has very little experience with the Remington 870.


It is another one of those, "I shop at WalMart but don't buy a made in China firearm".



GC
Link Posted: 4/4/2008 9:37:19 AM EST
MAX...Im fairly certain I have a LOT of experience with the 870.......

I have minimal experience with the Norinco clones, but enough to know that, while they may be solid, they are not a good financial choice when a surplus 870 can be had for so little. Furthermore, I do not make, or sell, any item for either gun, and therefore I have no stake in either.

I count on a shotgun to possibly bring me home alive every day. My choice, for my money, is the 870.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. The LE world revolves around price point. If the Norinco were as good as the 870, dont you think youd see some in service, somewhere?
Link Posted: 4/4/2008 10:05:27 AM EST
There are Norinco shotguns in service on duty as Police shotguns. That doesn't mean anything any way. There are many excellent firearms that are not used by Police for what ever reason.

I wouldn't invest my time, money and know how in a shotgun that I though was junk. That would be foolish.

height=8
Originally Posted By patrol120:

I have minimal experience with the Norinco clones.


That translates into No Experience.


I suggestion for anyone who is thinking on purchasing a new firearm. Only listen to the ones who own or owned the firearm you intend to purchase. All others are just giving lip service.



GC
Link Posted: 4/4/2008 7:51:45 PM EST
LOL....since when does owning a gun make you an expert? It often means you feel as though you have to defend a poorly made decision.

Me? I make the determination of a gun's quality before I spend my hard earned money on it, not after.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 9:57:41 AM EST
I've owned numerous Mossy 500/590's & Rem 870's over the years and picked up a couple of inexpensive Hawk 88 (Norinco) 870 clones as starter shotguns for my son & his best friend. I installed 870 R3 recoil pads (the originals were hard plastic), sidesaddles & Wilson springs/followers w/o difficulty. They've seen a lot of abuse over the past few years and the only problem experienced to date is that the screws on the ghost ring sights were a little soft and needed a little loctite to keep 'em from backing out. For the price I see nothing wrong with them, especially as beaters and the quality (IMHO) is better than the lower end 870 Express versions but not as good as the 870 Police Magnums.
In fact, while recently prepping the boys' shotguns for their upcoming summer visit I decided that *I* needed a cheap & reliable beater and purchased a Pardner Pump for myself. It arrived a couple of days ago and while I haven't fired it yet I'm very happy w/the handling and apparent quality (and it has a real recoil pad unlike the earlier Hawks). Except for the shape of the receiver rear it's nearly identical to the Hawk 88's.
So what if Max100 makes extended mag tubes for the Norincos? At least *someone* does... it's a market need that he's stepped in and filled. After learning that he makes them I ordered 3 of them...
Tomac
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 1:51:29 PM EST
LOL....how funny.

When one can buy trade-in 870s all day long for 150-225, exactly what is the point? None, in my opinion, but its your money, waste it as you see fit.
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 4:57:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By patrol120:
LOL....how funny.
When one can buy trade-in 870s all day long for 150-225, exactly what is the point? None, in my opinion, but its your money, waste it as you see fit.


You're right, it is funny. What's the point? How about a new reliable firearm over a used firearm of questionable condition? I'll take my 40+ yrs of actual hands-on firearms experience over your obviously biased & non-supported opinion (which you are welcome to, of course, however uninformed), thank you very much...
Tomac
Link Posted: 4/6/2008 11:32:25 PM EST
I'm about sick & tired of hearing about what shitty quality the 870 Express has. I have never seen any issues with them in the field, never had any finish problems with them, and my ex-local gun shop never had customer issues with them (and they are a HUGE Remington dealer). Every single Express I've owned, or my family has owned has not had issues. In fact, my Father-In-Law owns at least 5 that gets regular use with no complaints (except when one rusted because he didn't clean it after duck hunting on the coast).

The 870 Express was made to compete with the cheaper aluminum receiver guns like Mossberg & Winchester. Its not supposed to have the smoothness of a Wingmaster, or a Police shotgun. Its simply a budget shotgun that performs the basics that a shotgun needs to.

I personally don't see any advantage to buying the Pardner pump. You can get used 870s at good prices all day long. I hear about how great they are, but the fact of the matter is they do NOT have the track record. We all know the 870 has a service life of at least 250,000 shells. The Pardner may be a clone, but Chinese engineering is always suspect.

I'm not saying the Pardner Pump is a bad shotgun. I'm sure its probably a decent shotgun. I'm simply saying its NOT better than a 870. Its a copy of the best selling American pump-action shotgun. There is no reason to drop the cash on one when you can buy a Remington instead.

* Before anyone points out that Marlin/H&R is now owned by Remington, its only been since December 2007. Cerberus calls the shots with all of these companies, and that doesn't justify funding the PLA. (I don't buy Chinese goods if there is a American made product right next to it)

Link Posted: 4/7/2008 1:36:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/7/2008 1:47:25 AM EST by MAX100]

556A2

The Remington Express is a pretty good shotgun and I am glad you like yours.

I like the Norinco 982 and the Pardner Pump better and this is why.


Parkerize finish on the PP and rough Blue on the Express.

Machine Extractor, MIM on the Express

Metal Trigger guard, Plastic on the Express

Heavier steel receiver

7+1 Capacity with tube extension, 6+1 with tube ext on the Express

Better shell lifter design

The Norinco 982 same shotgun as the Pardner Pump and it cost the same. It comes standard with a very nice set of Ghost ring sights. They would cost you as much as the shotgun if you had to buy them separate. A bead sight is standard on the Express. If you wanted a nice set of GRS on the Express you would have to buy them after market and have them installed by a Gun Smith and that would be, at least, a $150 added cost

The barrel locking lug is in a better location on the Norinco made PP shotgun. The mag tube extension on the Pardner Pump is shorter and a stronger setup than the longer tube extension on the Express. This doesn't matter on a hunting shotgun but it is benefit on a tactical shotgun.

The mag tube is longer on the PP which gives room to put a rail mount between the locking lug and fore end for accessories. If you added a rail mount on the Express it would have to be put on the mag tube ext and removed each time you break down the shotgun which is a pain.

I believe the Norinco 982 and the Pardner Protector is a improved version of the 870 design for tactical purposes. The Norinco 870 copy shotguns have been imported into the US for at least 10 years. I have owned mine for 4 years and paid about $125 for it new. I wouldn't sale it or trade it for a 870 Express.

Marlin H&R NEF feels they are excellent shotguns. They put their name on them and backed them with their excellent warranty.



GC


Link Posted: 4/8/2008 4:27:11 PM EST
I hate to interrupt a perfectly good pissing match, but why are Norinco shotguns allowed in the country but Norinco M14s and 1911's banned ?

For the record, I have a Norinco 1897 trench gun and it has been excellent after it was broken in.
Link Posted: 4/11/2008 1:39:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By patrol120:
LOL....how funny.

When one can buy trade-in 870s all day long for 150-225, exactly what is the point? None, in my opinion, but its your money, waste it as you see fit.



where?


I have never seen a used 870 at those prices in my local area.

Cheapest shotguns I have found in my area are a Mossberg 500 used $130 (bought it)
Charles Daily 20 ga $155 used
Mavrick 88 $170 new
and a NEF Pardner $147 new

I have never seen a used 870 for less than $250 in my area.
Link Posted: 4/11/2008 3:33:02 PM EST
I wish I could find the used 870 for 150-225 but around here there doesn't seem to be any in that range! I look at these low priced chinese guns as an option and if your on a tight budget it may be the case of having a shotgun and not having one. Ya pay your money and make your choice.
Link Posted: 4/11/2008 7:10:39 PM EST
http://www.summitgunbroker.com/1704458.html
Link Posted: 4/12/2008 6:20:22 AM EST
cdnn had some used wingmasters for under 200. I also say a used express at a local pawnshop for 200, didnt look like it saw any use at all. Most likely sat in a safe or closet and never got fired. I didnt pick it up because I had just bought one a couple of weeks before.

I've never handled one of these chinese knockoffs but I havent seen a negative review about them yet. If I had the extra cash, I'd try it out. Its not too expensive so if its a total POS it wouldnt hurt the wallet too much.
Link Posted: 4/14/2008 9:11:38 PM EST
Marlin has been bought out Remington and is pulling the plug on HR and Nef!

Might reconcider!

Bob
Link Posted: 4/14/2008 10:31:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
Marlin has been bought out Remington and is pulling the plug on HR and Nef!

Might reconcider!

Bob


Where did you hear this? NEF make great single shot shotguns.I own one and was thinking about getting some different caliber barrels. Would Remington warranty these now and will everyone pay more for a rebadged NEF?
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 1:25:47 AM EST
If you do anything other than worship at the alter of the 870, you are a heathen or an idiot around here. The same for the 1911, AR15*no suprise* and M14. All of these guns are popular staples of the American firearms industry. Alot of times people let sentiment and opinion sway them... Like the 1911, AR15 and M14 the 870 is hardly perfect and isn't the best choice for every body. Not liking/owning an 870 doesn't make you an idiot...

Lots of people on this site have a serious Rambo complex and buy/propogate thier guns accordingly. They spend the extra $$$ on Police Magnums and 590A1's when an Express or 500 would completely meet thier needs. A home owner keeping a gun for SD hardly needs a Police Magnum...Many LE agencies don't feel they need the Police Magnum, which is why loads of them buy the Express. A responsible home owner wanting a good quality pump for SD would be well served by a Maverick or Norinco/H&R.
Actually, I'd rather have the Norinco...

I have broken nearly every Winchester/Mossberg/Remington pump I have ever subjected to hard use. Contrary to popular belief, pump guns aren't invincible and the 870 is no exception. I had a brand new 870 Police Magnum in explicably bind up semi-permanantly the first time I chambered a shell. This was quite suprising, as the gun was brand new...

I guess my point is, no pump or any gun is invinicible. Take care of it and it will take care of you. Many cops can't necessitate the added expense of the Police Magnum and the 870 served valiently before that model was ever introduced. A casual shooter or homeowner looking to protect themselves hardly needs to spend a pile of money to have a decent shotgun.

I have never seen a similarly equipped 870 for the price of a Norinco 870 or M37 clone.
The Chicom prices are always better, and the guns have ghost rings/heat shields and are better suited for defensive use than a Express field gun. A 200.00 Express isn't going to be brand new and will probably require modifications to make it suitible for use as a HD type weapon.

As far as buying from China, who cares? It isn't your 200.00 thats going to decide the coming war...its the corruption/espionage/treason commited by Boeing, Lockheed, Raython and others. Without our lax security posture, China would still be struggling with thier ICBM, SLBM and avionics programs. You buying a Norinco isn't going to make thier new SLBM have a CEP of a 1/10 of a nautical mile, again thats a product of treason and espionage. Be way more worried of what they are going to do with all the security/computer secrets they have been stealing as opposed to worrying the PLA might do bad stuff with your 160.00....We will be at war with China in the next 10+ years, if not sooner...If you buy a Chicom, thats one more gun for you and one less for them. Oh, and about the coming war? Start learning Chinese They are deliberatly, or at the very least negligently using lead and other toxins in American imported products. Why not cripple/poison the generation you will be fighting in the future?

One more thing about China, thier small arms programs are light years beyond our own. The fit and finish isn't always perfect, but they churn out effective and reliable weapons. M1A guys are all snobs*except me, of course* and the Norinco M14's are respected and coveted by that crowd. They aren't shunned like Norinco shotguns by the 870 crowd...They are excellent at taking a design, tweaking/copying it, manufacturing it for cheap and overall improving the product. Thier M16 copies are as functional as any FN or Colt, partially because they aren't limited by lobbies or 1960's milspecs.

Don't be a price snob or John Rambo. The average civilian gun owner hardly "needs" a police magnum or even an Express. I love my Benelli's, but I can honestly admit a Norinco 870 or M37 clone that worked would accomplish the same thing for me. Buy and use what you need and can afford.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 3:24:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2008 3:25:27 AM EST by Tomac]
Here's my new Pardner Pump Protector, all I added was a 4-shot sidesaddle, fiber optic bead, +2 mag tube extension and TLR-1 taclight:

Tomac
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 4:04:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
If you do anything other than worship at the alter of the 870, you are a heathen or an idiot..................




Well said Ryno


ZM
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 1:36:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
If you do anything other than worship at the alter of the 870, you are a heathen or an idiot..................


To be honest, I don;t see anything incorrect in this statement. The 870 is the most prolific fighting shotgun in the United States for a reason. There are many shotguns that will do in a pinch, but there are none better, Period.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 5:06:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By patrol120:

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
If you do anything other than worship at the alter of the 870, you are a heathen or an idiot..................


To be honest, I don;t see anything incorrect in this statement. The 870 is the most prolific fighting shotgun in the United States for a reason. There are many shotguns that will do in a pinch, but there are none better, Period.


+1

The 870 got its reputation because it is the best pump-action shotgun in production. We can argue the merits of the 500/590/1300/PardnerPump/12/1897/M37, but the fact of the matter is the Remington 870 is the better shotgun.

Reputations are earned, not given.



Link Posted: 4/15/2008 7:09:02 PM EST
That's nice that the 870 is the best ever made. But my Pardner will shoot cheap Wally world ammo all day long. Let's see the 870 do it. It's like saying it's ok if your AR won't shoot Wolf. There's something wrong there.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 7:21:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2008 5:54:56 AM EST by MAX100]
height=8
Originally Posted By pinheadg33:
That's nice that the 870 is the best ever made. But my Pardner will shoot cheap Wally world ammo all day long. Let's see the 870 do it. It's like saying it's ok if your AR won't shoot Wolf. There's something wrong there.



I agree there are some 870 Police and Express shotguns that have problems with the low cost ammo. The Norinco improved 870 copies shotgun have no problem with any 12Ga 2.75" AND 3" shells. They are very reliable shotguns.

The QC at Remington has been lax for the last few years while Remington has been in huge debt. Prices have been going up while quality has been down. The older Remington 870 shotguns are the best made.


GC


Link Posted: 4/16/2008 4:20:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By MAX100:

Originally Posted By pinheadg33:
That's nice that the 870 is the best ever made. But my Pardner will shoot cheap Wally world ammo all day long. Let's see the 870 do it. It's like saying it's ok if your AR won't shoot Wolf. There's something wrong there.



I agree there are some 870 Police and Express shotguns that have problems with the low cost ammo. The Norinco improved 870 copies shotgun have no problem with any 12gA 2.75" AND 3" shells. They are very reliable shotguns.

The QC at Remington has been lax for the last few years while Remington has been huge debt. Prices have been going up while quality has been down. The older Remington 870 shotguns are the best made.


GC




Yep, I've had problems with THREE 870s with the crappy Winchester Promo Loads. The first was a 2003 production 870E HD (that I polished the chamber), a 2004 production 870P model, and a 1968 production Wingmaster. I've also had a couple of friends had the same problems with this shell in their 870s, and a another couple friends with problems in their 590A1s. I've never had a problem (and the same other people) had problems with the Federal & Remington promo loads.

There has been problems with MANY pump-action shotguns when using the Winchester promos. I don't even consider it a problem if any pump-action chokes on this ammo because its so widespread. I consider it a QC problem with Winchester/Olin using the absolute cheapest materials to make a piece of shit shell. Using the crappiest ammunition available is asking for problems in any gun. I personally spend an extra 65 cents a box for a better shell.

I still keep hearing how Remington's QC has gone down over the years, and never seen it personally. Its always about how bad the Express line is even though its made to be a cheaper gun compared to the Wingmaster & Police. The vast majority of the time its about how shitty the Express finish is, and cheap shells sticking in the chamber. The Express finish is fine if you put a coat of CLP on it, and I've actually had a 870P have surface rust before any of my 870Es because I neglected to oil it. The 870E's chamber problems are 95% a result of not cleaning the chamber good when its new. Remington loves to pack their NIB shotguns with a thick cosmoline. Most people do not clean the chamber well, and wonder why they have FTEs.

Remington's former debt has no bearing in a discussion of quality & rising prices. First, prices are rising on every thing like food, fuel, and nearly every thing period. Every shotgun manufacturer has/is going to be raising prices. Before the Cerberus buyout, the debt really did not affect the QC. If you want a good example of of bad management or debt please look at how Winchester fucked themselves in 1964. They had about the only other shotgun that was up to par with the 870, and look how bad the cheaper 1200 did in the market.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The PP shotgun is probably a darn good shotgun. However, just because it has a metal trigger guard, ghost rings (which is a preference), and a cheaper price does not make it a better than a shotgun with over 9 million made & 50 years of support. I'll personally stick with the American company that has been outfitting hunters, police, and nearly every Joe Blow with the 870 since 1950 instead of a Chicom rip-off.

Link Posted: 4/16/2008 11:22:09 PM EST
The 870 is not the best pump shotgun out there. And to what end, and for whom?

Mossberg 590/500's and Winchester 1300's have been in use by LE/.gov units the world over for years. The 870 doesn't have a better reputation than eiether, they are all equally appreciated for being durable/dependible pumps. For whatever reason, the DoD was more interested in replacing its considerable 870 stock pile with Mossberg's and now Benelli's.

Remington's "reputation" comes more from history then any serious advantage it has over its competition. Like the 1911, its an American icon, but that hardly makes it the best weapon avalible. At the time it was introduced, I believe it was the best choice, however the competition has seriously leveled the playing field. Military/LE use, the same use you credit with the 870's "earned" reputation, has shown that the 1300 and 500/590 are every bit as capable.

The only place that the 870 is popular is in US LE agencies, and that has been slowly changing over the years. The vast majority of military pumps are Winchester Defenders and Mossbergs of some stripe, in the US and abroad. For every foriegn military that uses the 870, I could find you 3 that use the Mossberg/Winchester.

I am not dispariging the 870, as I mentioned I believe it to be an excellent gun and equal to its contemporaries. Military/LE testing hasn't shown any one pump to be the "best". Declaring the 870 the "best" is very much a Michael Scott statement... Only sentiment/opinion can defend that statement. Data shows they are all equal, despite each having thier ideosyncracies.

The most commonly used pump shotgun in the GWOT right now is the lowly Mossberg 500 Persuader/Cruiser. I think they are junky, and would personally prefer something else, but they have a high soldier confidence rating*80%+ IIRC* and they have proven to be extremely durable in theatre.

My point is that military/LE service, here and abroad, has demonstrated no significant performance difference between the 870/Winchester/500/590. You can say that you like the 870 more, or that its your favorite but you most certainly can't make the outrageous claim that its the "best".

Not everyone needs to throw money away and mentally masturbate, hence they do just fine with Norinco's or whatever. They are sensible guns that are more than durable/reliable enough for a homeowner to enjoy/protect themselves with. As some may or may not know, I have been bitten by the Benelli bug. I use them for HD, but honestly, I would be 100% fine using a used Mossberg 500 or Norinco..so long as it worked. The difference between me and alot of guys around here is I don't have delusions of Rambo and I can admit I don't "need" as expensive of a gun. Though I am not sure if that makes me better for being able to admit it, or dumber for recognizing the sillyness and doing it anyways....Ill let you guys decide.

Don't let anyone make you feel bad for owning what you can afford. Buy what you like, can budget and have fun. Only the smallest precentage of shooters will ever shoot a gun until it fails, even fewer will use it to defend thier lives. Not everyone is as cool with wasting money on toys as some of us*present company included*. Only you can decide whats "best"...
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