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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/12/2002 3:08:01 AM EST
Did any of you catch Hackworth's editorial on the Beretta? Feed back from the experienced?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:20:52 AM EST
There was a thread a few days ago about it. I dunno where he gets his info, but I personally think he is suffering from the same mental disfunction as John McCain. Both honorable men who served their country, but maybe too much combat/imprisonment?

As for the Beretta, mine works like a champ and I like it very much. It would be the first gun I would reach for in a home defense situation, as I trust it to fire and not jam. On the other hand, I'm not living in the dirt in Afghanistan.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:31:35 AM EST
My Beretta is my home-defense pistol, and I love that gun. Never had a hiccup with it, and I have problems believing Hackworth's comments about it not being durable after the torture tests the military put it through before accepting it.

Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:39:17 AM EST
I've got to tell you, the early reports from the Afghan were extremely negative concerning both the Beretta and the cartridge. (The short-barreled '16 variants also performed poorly. Same report from Somalia earlier. Course nobody listened......)
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 6:22:07 AM EST
What's the practical solution? What could we hand the average grunt out of the box that would immediately improve the situation?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:16:43 AM EST
STRLN posted a survey of guys returning from Afghanistan. 25% complained about the stopping power of the M9 - even though none of those guys had actually shot anyone with one!

My 92F is ancient and has seen a lot of use. It has pretty hammered, but functions perfectly. My only complaint is that it is too big and heavy, at least compared to more modern designs.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:21:11 AM EST
Hackworth is mostly interested in keeping his name in the news. He's made some good points over the years, and has been a (generally) good military/defense advocate. However, he has no expertise in weapons, and never names his sources (most of whom are servicemen who write him letters).
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:33:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:40:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 9:10:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By kkyle:
What's the practical solution? What could we hand the average grunt out of the box that would immediately improve the situation?



kkyle,
the 'operators' have much more latitude to help themselves and they (and everyone else that can get one) have been heading directly back to 1911's !!
One guy commented that he had never seen such a sorry lot of shot-out 1911's. But still better than the Berettas per these guys.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 9:29:08 AM EST
One of my carry guns is 9mm - but eith big, honking holes in teh bullets nose (aka hollowpoints) that should render about a 60-70 caliber hole in any scumbag that tried to dispatch me.

Course, that is a unlikely possibility that anyone is gonna try to kill me.

Now, when you are in combat, the lieklihood of someone trying to kill you is, to say the least, increased. But then to put FMJ's (non expanding bullets ) in that gun??

Personally, I sneak my .40 Sig over there. Or at the least buy my own HP ammo.

Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:03:37 AM EST
Everybody should know that 9mm fmj is a crappy round. Ninety years of data to draw on. What a surprise. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:09:26 AM EST
As big a fan as I am of my Beretta, I have to admit that I'd reconsider it as my home-defense pistol if I had to have FMJ's in it.

I feel pretty good about the Hydra-Shoks, though.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:15:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Watch-Six:
Everybody should know that 9mm fmj is a crappy round. Ninety years of data to draw on. What a surprise. Watch-Six



hopped-up muslim fanatics is why the US went from .38 (=9.652mm) to .45 cal in um, what was the year? 1911? in some ways the world has not changed a bit.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 11:08:45 AM EST
Anyone have a military TM for the M9. What is the recommended replacement rate for the Brl the prevent locking block failure.

Thats the only catostrophic failures I've ever seen with the Berettas.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 11:41:30 AM EST
What's the possibility of using newer bullet technology available?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 12:01:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 12:03:01 PM EST by ChrisLe]

Originally Posted By kkyle:
What's the possibility of using newer bullet technology available?



Not much latitide there. Don't forget that the type of ammunition (i.e. FMJ ammo) is dictated by the Peace Conference at the Hague in 1899. The exact text can be found here:

www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/f1f1fb8410212aebc125641e0036317c?OpenDocument­

The subject was further clarified and ammended by the accords of the Geneva Convention. Basically, it disallows anything other than FMJ ammunition to be used during 'civilized' and organized warfare..

Personally, considering the ragheads in Afghanistan, Somalia, Bosnia, Lebanon, Vietnam, as well as every other major conflict the US has been involved in post WWII could care less abouth the Hague and its accords I say, if hollowpoint +P rounds will stop the POS that's trying to kill me, I'm all for it!
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 1:18:04 PM EST
What a joke. You can use hollowpoints on your own citizens, but too uncivilized to use on your enemy.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:17:13 PM EST
I wonder how FMJ expandables would fit in with the Geneva Convention?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:21:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By kkyle:
What's the practical solution? What could we hand the average grunt out of the box that would immediately improve the situation?



A H&K .45? >evil grin<
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:30:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 3:35:05 PM EST by USMC2111]
AR15fan, there is no scheduled or round count replacement for the barrel/locking block on the M9. In the Marines, we give each M9 an annual LTI (limited technical inspection), plus a PFI (pre firing inspection) before we go to the range. On the M9 the locking blocks or barrels are replaced when they show cracks or become otherwise unserviceable.

In case people are wondering, the slides on the M9's are still cracking. The large head on the hammer pivot pin was put on to retain the slide in the case of catastophic failure. Improved metallorgy was supposed to have strenghtened the slide, but I guess was not totally successful.

Ever wonder why the Recon Marines use the MEU(SOC) 1911? Could it be because when it really counts, the 9mm doesn't cut it? Yes, I know the MP5N is 9mm, but that is supposedly going to be dropped in favor of a M4 variant.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:36:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By kkyle:
What's the practical solution? What could we hand the average grunt out of the box that would immediately improve the situation?



The old 1911s never had the same perceived problems that the Beretta has been encountering. They work great out of the box with FMJ.

The Army made the same mistake it did around the same time last century, it went to a small caliber wonder-gun and it came up noticeably short. What happened? The Army went back to a .45 caliber cartridge.

The only solution is the re-adoption of a large-caliber pistol that can perform as well as the old 1911.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:40:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By lurker:

hopped-up muslim fanatics is why the US went from .38 (=9.652mm) to .45 cal in um, what was the year? 1911? in some ways the world has not changed a bit.



Actually it was Moro tribesman, who are definetly not Muslim. They were hopped up though, and used an interesting process of limb binding that was much like tournequets and would prevent substantial blood loss even in artery wounds, allowing them to kill the guy who shot them before limping off somewhere to die.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:46:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:

Originally Posted By lurker:

hopped-up muslim fanatics is why the US went from .38 (=9.652mm) to .45 cal in um, what was the year? 1911? in some ways the world has not changed a bit.



Actually it was Moro tribesman, who are definetly not Muslim. They were hopped up though, and used an interesting process of limb binding that was much like tournequets and would prevent substantial blood loss even in artery wounds, allowing them to kill the guy who shot them before limping off somewhere to die.



And "Charles" later used the same "limb binding" techniques in Vietnam.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:49:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 3:50:47 PM EST by Tuukka]
There were good points made in the thread regarding this recently.

Since military forces in conventional warfare are bound to use FMJ projectiles according to one of the Hague treaties, we can all decide for ourselves what is better and how much, 9mm or .45...(If im not mistaken the use of expanding projectiles is allowed in counter terrorist operations)

The Beretta is a reliable pistol and exactly how many rounds have been expended by the U.S Army, since you should be worried about other things if they start having to use their sidearms very often.

People sometimes have over expectations, they hit with a round of 9mm and the opponent doesnt do a backflip as in the movies.

I have talked with an U.S Army Ranger who served in Task Force Ranger in Somalia and asked him what his opinion was of the M9 service pistol. His opinion was "It saved my ass", since his M60 malfunctioned/jammed during the fighting on October 3rd 1993.

Edited cause my spelling isnt that great


Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:55:19 PM EST
Seems we spent billions of dollars on fancier toys and yet we let people die before we fix the basics. I quess somewhere along the line someone would have to admit to a mistake. Time for me to call my congressman.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 4:13:04 PM EST
From what I have gathered accordding to some United Nations treaty, and the Geneva Conventions, Hollow point ammunition is not allowed in a warfare type environment. Only Full Metal Jacketed rounds are permisible.

Unfortunately so, It would appear that the more populated countries like the United States, Britian,Australia,Canada,and Russia seem to be really the only countries that are all to concerned about following the rules.

I think it was a January, or February issue of Soldier of fortune magazine there was an article about two operators doing some cave clearing over in the afghans. One guy was useing a Berretta M9, and the other guy was using a 1911. According to the article the two guys came upon 5 bad guys in this cave and had a shoot out with them. The guy with the 1911 saved the guys behind that had the M-9 due to shot placement and overal punch of the round.
It would appear from this article that I read that even though the one operator that shot one of the Al queda guys with his 9mm, it did not do the job as far as neutralizing the threat, so the guy with the 45 ended up finishing the job and neutralizing the threat( this could be were Duckworth is getting his info from)

I think I would have to agree that if you are confined to full metal jacketed rounds, then if I was in a situation in battle I think I would prefer the 45 over the 9mm, or even a 40SW over a 9mm. But if I could have hollow point rounds, then that would be a different story.

I think concerning home-defense and concealed carry issues are concerned, a 9mm firearm loaded with a good hollow point round in +P or +P+ is going to to the job just fine. And if our country was ever invaded, well all bets are off as far as rules concerning ammo, Who is going to tell any of us that we could not use hollow point bullets?

I too own a berretta 92FS (M-9), and this is my concealed carry firearm to in all wheather conditions. I like it, and have not had a sigle problem with it, but I am not confined to full metal jacketed rounds, and are not in the desert either were sand is an issue. I think that as far as we are concerned we dont use our firearms in the same manner as someone in the military in a combat situation would, and even if we did on our own soil, well all bets would be off concerning the hollow point bulletts issue, because I know I would use them, and I know that if my enemy had them, they would use them also. I dont really care what the United Nations says about what ammo is legal and what is not, Would you if the SHTF and we were under attack?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 4:59:10 PM EST
The Beretta's I have seen in action were kind of hit and miss. I know a deputy in a neighboring county who uses a stainless Beretta 92 and has fired thousands of rounds through it without any problem at all. But I also had a friend who had one and it would jam once out of every 30 rounds fired. Yes, it was with factory mags. So who knows, some are good and some are bad. From what I have seen, the current Beretta's aren't what they were when the military trials were conducted. If they were I would use them exclusively...as they performed as well in those tests as anything could under those conditions. My opinion is the new USA made Beretta's may not have quite the quality control of their earlier Italian counterparts. After thinking about this at length, I don't think I ever heard any serious complaints about an Italian made 92...mostly the later ones made here in the states. Of course this is just my explanation as to why the current Beretta's don't perform like the first ones. I could be completely off in my suspicion and I don't mean to infer that the Beretta's are junk. Some of them are obviously very good. But there are a few lemons as well. This is common with most guns but one made to be used in combat should not make it past quality control unless it is superbly made and reliable gun.

As far as the 9mm vs. .45 debate, this is a worn out topic. Obviously with both using the FMJ bullet, the .45 is the better of the two for stopping ability. The frontal area of the 9mm FMJ is just too small to be an effective stopper. This is the same problem suffered by the .30 cal M1 carbines. These had plenty of power (more than a 357 magnum), yet the frontal area of the bullets were too small to create very large holes and the bullets were too short to violently tumble, thus why they were sometimes ineffective stoppers. Of course a 9mm or .45 through the heart or brain will do the same thing. But in a situation where the bullet doesn't hit vitals, I would prefer making as large of a hole as possible. I think the 1911, Sig Sauer P220, H&K USP or Glock 21 in .45 ACP would be a better choice for a military weapon.

Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:01:26 PM EST
With that said, the 9mm loaded with the right bullets can also be very effective. I have seen tests and heard comments about the current crop of high performance HP's that are currently on the market and they look good. The Winchester Ranger in 127 gr +p+ and 147 gr as well as Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +p and Federal 124 gr Hydra-Shok in +p+ loadings should get the job done. And as someone earlier eluded to, this isn't a war in the same sense as we are used to fighting. This isn't a war against a legitimate goverment force, but renegade terrorist operatives and their supporters. We can use expanding ammo against these vermin by definition, as they are terrorists. Whether or not we choose to do so I have no idea. But my definition of the conflict as I understand it would allow us to use such ammo without violating the Hague or Geneva Conventions.

I do think that our troops need sidearms. A sidearm should always be viewed as secondary to a long gun, but they are still a very important part of a person's armament. I think all soldiers (not just officers, machine gunners, grenadiers, and NCO's) should be armed with a handgun as a back-up weapon. If your position is being over-run by the enemy and your weapon malfunctions or is damaged in the fight, that sidearm may be the only thing around that can save your life. I am no soldier but I will say this.....without a good quality pistol on my hip, I would feel naked going into combat.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:43:33 AM EST
Hackworth does have a legitimate claim to the Beretta durability. Several police depts had locking block failures due to metalurgy defects that caused the weapons to fail. The model involved was the 9mm Centurian which some of the depts replaced with an "improved" design called the Brigadier.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 9:27:28 AM EST
I have a genuine M1911 Colt .45 automatic. I realize that the USA/Canada/Europe compromised on NATO standard ammo but why oh why did we go to the 9MM Parabellum round? The M1911 is a MUCH better gun than the Beretta 92. It just is for combat. With hollowpoint ammo the 9mm is an awesome round but as it's been said with only FMJ/Metal case rounds the 230 grain .45 ACP is the man stopper. Not a 127 grain 9mm. CRC

Bring back the Colt/Browning Model 1911! My .02
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 1:46:52 PM EST
My departments is one of the large ones in the country. Currently we ahve approved most modern semi auto pistols for on and off duty including Sig, Beretta, HK, S&W and Ruger in 9mm, 40, and 45 (Unfortunately not any Glocks). For on and off duty.

It has been our experience that the beretta 9mm is the most trouble free and the weapon that breaks the least. To the point that they are thinking of changing the current policy and issue the Beretta. I've never had a problem with either of the two I have owned nor have the people I sold them two.

Using hollow points it appears that the 9, 40 and 45 will all do there job if you do yours (old news).

The common misconception is that 9mm ball sucks (it does) and 45 ball works (it doesn't) They are both about the same with around a 60% on shot stop rate. I 've never seen any data on the 40 FMJ.

Personally, I think the beretta is a great gun right up there with the SIG and the glock. I would be hesitant to use either the 9 or 45 in FMJ.

Most soldiers or marines have never used nor will they ever use a hand gun in combat as the rifle is their issue weapon. Consequently, I am real reluctant to rely on "battle field" stories that don't have any backing data.

H
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:00:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Hackworth is mostly interested in keeping his name in the news. He's made some good points over the years, and has been a (generally) good military/defense advocate. However, he has no expertise in weapons, and never names his sources (most of whom are servicemen who write him letters).



No disrespect intended but if you read his book About Face you'll find he's combat infantry vet from Korea and Vietnam.As a fan of the 10mm and 45 you can guess my opinion of the stopping power of the 9mm.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:11:53 PM EST
If the Men in combat are chosing to carry something else its for a darn good reason.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:18:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By FALShootist:
My departments is one of the large ones in the country. Currently we ahve approved most modern semi auto pistols for on and off duty including Sig, Beretta, HK, S&W and Ruger in 9mm, 40, and 45 (Unfortunately not any Glocks). For on and off duty.



Sounds like you may work for the LA County Sheriff's Department. That is a rather large one with 7,000 + deputies. Seems they allow the use of some pretty nice weapons though. I too approve of most of the above choices.


Using hollow points it appears that the 9, 40 and 45 will all do there job if you do yours (old news).


Yep.


The common misconception is that 9mm ball sucks (it does) and 45 ball works (it doesn't) They are both about the same with around a 60% on shot stop rate. I 've never seen any data on the 40 FMJ.


I would entirely disagree with this statement. The tests and reports I have heard and saw indicate that when ball ammo only is used, that the .45 is much more effective. Your 60% quote is one of those numbers tossed out by Evan Marshall and has been proved wrong many times since. The one shot stopping data is just flawed math. Any person with experience dealing with statistics would laugh at how they come to those percentages. But FWIW, the .45 hardball scored about 75% in the one shot stop arena...not 60%. Think about the Diallo shooting for a moment. This was 9mm hardball in action. It is my belief based on past events that this many shots would not have been required if they had been using good hollow points or even .45 with hardball. Even with FMJ, most .45 is capable of dropping a person with 1 or 2 good, solid body hits.


Personally, I think the beretta is a great gun right up there with the SIG and the glock. I would be hesitant to use either the 9 or 45 in FMJ.


I agree. If we have a choice between using fmj or hp's, I would go with hp's anyday. But for soldiers who don't have that option, I would opt for the larger caliber every time.


Most soldiers or marines have never used nor will they ever use a hand gun in combat as the rifle is their issue weapon. Consequently, I am real reluctant to rely on "battle field" stories that don't have any backing data.


Again, even though "most" soldiers haven't had to use pistols in combat, I am sure there are more than a few who were greatful that they had one when their primary weapon ceased to operate. These rifles we use aren't perfect. They get dirty, they can break parts, they can jam or they could be damaged in combat. All of these things could get a soldier killed if the fight is a hot one. That said, I think it is just foolish to go into combat with no back-up weapon. All soldiers should have a sidearm at their disposal....just in case. Take a look at the various special forces units out there. You'll notice that most of these in the know people who don't necessarily march to same drum of their conventional counterparts, all carry sidearms as a part of their standard armament. This is just good common sense thinking. A handgun should never replace the M-16 or machine gun on the battlefield, but yet should still be issued when said rifle or machine gun ceases to operate.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:31:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By GreyGhost:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Hackworth is mostly interested in keeping his name in the news. He's made some good points over the years, and has been a (generally) good military/defense advocate. However, he has no expertise in weapons, and never names his sources (most of whom are servicemen who write him letters).



No disrespect intended but if you read his book About Face you'll find he's combat infantry vet from Korea and Vietnam.As a fan of the 10mm and 45 you can guess my opinion of the stopping power of the 9mm.



I have the book, but from what I've seen (and heard) of the man, concerning weaponry, he really doesn't know what he's talking about. He's only as qualified as every other person in the last 80 years who has fired any of the US military's weapons. Also, I'm not really sure of what "stopping power" is.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:45:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Think about the Diallo shooting for a moment. This was 9mm hardball in action. It is my belief based on past events that this many shots would not have been required if they had been using good hollow points or even .45 with hardball.



[rant]Sorry, but the Diallo case had NOTHING to do with the effectiveness of the 9mm cartridge (which I'm not defending here). Diallo was not hopped up on meth. He was not charging the officers (criminals) and soaking up hit after hit of 9mm. He was STANDING IN THE DOORWAY REACHING FOR HIS WALLET, and a bunch of goons hosed him down.[/rant]

Anyway (deep breath), you make good points concerning the benefits of the .45 cartridge. However, there is too much (unsupported) anectodal evidence out there that the 9mm is failing badly and leaving soldiers out in the open, unarmed. I want to see After Action Reports on all of these failures and how the .45 saved the day.

My personal experience (anecdotal) with the M9/92FS hasn't been that great, either. I don't have particular arguments against the 9mm cartridge, as you can always one-up with the "bigger is better" theory. Personally, I think the SIG P226 should have won, as it's the most reliable pistol I've ever used.

My issue M1911A1 was a total POS, as were many in the active inventory. The best M1911A1s were in the reserves, where they were issued new and hardly/never used. I personally had to watch my units PRISTINE M1911A1s being cut into scrap. Talk about "fraud, waste and abuse."

Link Posted: 7/13/2002 3:29:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2002 3:31:29 PM EST by ScottS]
Two quick thoughts:

1. As much as I respect Hackworth's war record, he's the same guy that, prior to the start of the Gulf War, predicted repeatedly that the M1 Abrams would be a flop in the desert enviornment (sand would clog the filters of the turbine engines, rendering them useless) and that the F-117 Stealth Fighter would be never be efffective. So much for his weapons commentary.

2. The misconception that hollowpoints are disallowed by the various laws of armed conflict is common, and wrong. We can get into all the barracks lawyer discussions we want on our own interpretations of this "law," but this might provide a more definitive source, as well as some interesting reading.

Link for the full memorandum is here: assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002902.html

Here's just the summary (emphasis added):

"MEMORANDUM FOR COMMANDER, UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND

SUBJECT: Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition

1. Summary.

This memorandum considers whether United States Army Snipers may employ match-grade, "open-tip" ammunition in combat or other special missions. It concludes that such ammunition does not violate the law of war obligations of the United States, and may be employed in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army."

The "Memorandum" is the work product of the Chief of the Judge Advocate General's International Law Branch. The same guy authored several memoranda on the subject of "military use of open-tip projectiles," including the one in 1990 which cleared the way for USSOCOM to issue the .45 ACP "Black Talon."

Scott


Link Posted: 7/13/2002 3:29:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/13/2002 3:32:16 PM EST by FALShootist]
Charging, I agree that soldiers should have a back up, However the reality is that they don't. Most military personel will never handle a handgun except in training.

I agree if You have to use ball ammo you might as well go with the 45 its always possible that it will work better based on its size and weight.

I don't work in LA but in the last 21 years I've seen some strange things. Like 9mm rounds that don't penetrate the skull (ball), 45 ball that bounced off a windshield and fatalities resulting from a .25 round to the extremities (shock).

That said, my uniform weapon is a SIG 220, My primary weapon is a SIG 239 in 40 S&W (I'm rarely in uniform). If I had to carry a 9mm it would be the Beretta in uniform or the S&W 3913 or SIG 239 in plainclothes. Federal tactical hollow points in all calibers.

Contrary to a lot of contradictory press about the AR15/M16 and the Beretta, I think both are great weapons that have always worked very well for me. Others may have had different experiences, but from what I've seen both of these weapons do what they are supposed to when they are supposed to as often as can be expected from any well made machine that has been properly maintained.
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