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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/12/2005 3:29:15 PM EDT
Hi guys,

I'm looking for an HK clone subgun for home/self-defense. If you guys have any suggestions, please don't hesitate to inform me. After some research, I think I narrowed them down to the Vector V-53 pistol in 223 and the Bobcat Weapons BW89 pistol in 9mm. If anyone can think of anything better please let me know!!!

Can anyone help me out??? I'm looking for durability, reliability and of course stopping power. Yes, I know that the V-53 is in 223 caliber, however, I've heard that with a shorter barrel, there is no stopping power with a 223 round??

Again, any help will be appreciated!

Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:25:23 PM EDT


PTR91KP

.308win

I suspect a 125gr ballistic tip would do the job just fine for self defense/home defense
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:45:40 PM EDT
First of all, do you want a subgun or a semi that looks like a subgun? An "HK clone subgun" is going to be several thousand dollars, and might not be the best choice for home defense. Is there any reason you're going with an HK clone over an AR or shotty?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:51:15 PM EDT
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I have every intention of also purchasing an AR-15 carbine. No doubt about that. And I was looking at the 'semi-auto' HK clones. I should have stated that originally. I was just looking for a self-defense gun for more of a close quarters situation. Are the semi-auto HK clones more of a collector's piece? Or do they have genuine value for self-defense??? Sorry, but I'm new at this and I thought I'd ask the experts with experience!
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 4:56:33 PM EDT
I'm a little jaded when it comes to clones but I would have to say neither of your choices !

Hear me out...

In the history of clones they have been plagued with problems... some small problems, some huge problems.
AR15 clones have had problems too... but if I were going for a .223 home defense pistol it would be a Bushmaster type 21S or 97S.

As for a 9mm.. I have no real input. While the clones are getting better and more reliable, they are still not reliable enough to stake your life on.

I'm just saying that you want something to go boom everytime without any doubt. If you read through these threads and other boards you will find that Most clones either have had FTE,FTF or they wont feed certain types of ammo. While other guns are the same... I'd much rather put my life in the hands of a gun that has been more proven than HK clones.

I'm having an MP5 clone built, so I am not biased, but I certainly do not plan on making it my defense gun.
I have a Glock 20 and an AR for that.... anybody that walks through my door is fucked !

If you are Hell Bent on getting a clone for defense I guess I would tell you to go with the Vector 53 pistol and make Jesus Christ your personal saviour....

I'd still highly advise against any HK clone when you are trying to protect your life or your loved ones. HK clones are for fun... If you want protection by a shotgun with 00 buckshot or a high capacity Glock,HK or Sig handgun in a large caliber.

Just my 2cents though

Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 5:38:14 PM EDT
Hey Bones who are you getting to build your MP5 clone?
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 6:13:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By csr:
Hey Bones who are you getting to build your MP5 clone?



The honorable and brilliant Jayson Cotter at : Investment Grade Firearms

I honestly couldn't be happier with his customer service... He answers any and all my questions. I did my research before picking a builder... When it came down to it he was the only smith that met all of my requirements.

I know others here will agree with me on that one.

Super guy IMO.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:02:39 AM EDT
I am with Bones on this one. Buy a HK clone because you want to shoot the hell out of it in your spare time, but if you are looking for home self defense a 12 or 20 ga shoot gun is the weapon of choice.

18" barrel, hi capacity 12 ga loaded with #4 through #00 buckshoot and you will be good to go.

The other reccomendation is a pistol, loaded with hollowpoints.

I heard a statistic the other day,...... One 12 ga shell is equal to nine, 9mm bullets hitting the same area at one time!! Nine, 9mm bullets = one 12 ga!

Think about it, which one would you like to be holding?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:24:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By books:
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I have every intention of also purchasing an AR-15 carbine. No doubt about that. And I was looking at the 'semi-auto' HK clones. I should have stated that originally. I was just looking for a self-defense gun for more of a close quarters situation. Are the semi-auto HK clones more of a collector's piece? Or do they have genuine value for self-defense??? Sorry, but I'm new at this and I thought I'd ask the experts with experience!



As has been said, I would stay away from the HK clones. A 12 guage shotty is better, but I prefer a .223 AR. An AR from a reputable manufacturer will run 100% out of the box with XM193 ammo, have pretty good terminal ballistics (better than a handgun round), recoil very little, and penetrate kevlar if the goblins are so equipped. According to the ammo gurus, a .308 would be an Even Better (TM) choice, but then you're talking real money for a SOCOM or something.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:58:13 AM EDT
For interior home defense, I would choose a shotgun. Nothing is more intimidating at close quarters than hearing that rack and a big 12 gauge staring at you.

I use a 12 gauge 870 with surefire forearm. For pistol, I use a USP45 Tac.

For OUTDOOR home defense (if you have large property like I do), you MAY want to use something longer, but if you're taking shots at someone from further than 50 yards OUTSIDE, you may have a tough time proving self defense if the altercation started OUTSIDE. If they were shooting at you inside and the fight broke outside, you probably wont have time to go grab the long gun.

I would go with a shotgun loaded with 00 tactical buckshot. If the fight goes outside, let them go and go check on the family and call 911.

For me, I have predators and have had issues with people trespassing and vandalism, I still havent considered a long gun for outdoor use, just rely on my 870 and USP tac.

Also, shooting someone with an "assault" weapon wherever you are is going to be a tough sell. Of course, when you're fighting for your life or your family's, that's not the concern. But we cant afford to ignore the legal implications of the post-fight.

JMO.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:13:05 PM EDT
While I agree with most of these posts, I have to put my $0.02 in.

I just got a Bobcat BW-5 about a month ago and the thing runs like a top. I bought 7 HK curved mags for in and put about 500 rounds through it so far with 0 issuse. Always fires and always ejects.

While most ppl say it is not reliable enough, I would have to disagree, I believe that this gun is perfect and would trust it for any type of use, be in tactical or home defense (go with a shotty for home defense though for obvious reasons).

I have run hollow points and fmj and no problems at all, just make sure that your machine of choice is oiled in the right places.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:52:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 4:54:46 PM EDT
Have both and would choose the 89. The 53 pistol isn't very good. They both need stocks on them, but this is the closest I can get. Thanks WA State. But for home defense I think I'd go with a Remington 870.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 6:47:09 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 7:36:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 5:50:40 PM EDT by COMMANDO]
I have a vector 53 sbr and have also owened hk 94!
I had many fte ftf problems with the REAL hk that gun jammed almost everytime I used it!
on the other hand the v53 has run perfectly since day 1 . some shooters don't trust the clones but I would put my life on the line for mine !
I have run thousand's of rounds thru mine and love it .
Here is a picture of my v53 sbr with vector 30 rd mags
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:23:42 PM EDT
Specifically, what kind of ammo have you been using with your V-53 to have it function so reliably??? I'm really curious! I've heard many have had feeding problems...
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 8:43:07 PM EDT
Hey Commando,

You know what is funny, that is the same experience I have had with mine. I shot a buddy's HK sp89 and the stupid thing would jam, then my buddy shot my BW and couldn't believe how good it was in comparison.
I own a Special Weapons G3 Clone and the BW-5 and the BW-5 is perfect. The SW-3 had major problems with it when I got it, after a lot of trial and error and some tuning it now runs flawlessly as well. I would put my life on the line with both of these weapons. They go boom when you pull the trigger, are accurate and run like tops. Of course I also clean my guns everytime they are done at the range as well as keep the right parts oiled.

TIP: On all HK's and clones with the locking pieces, a thin coat of oil (read very thin) on the firing pin itself will get rid of most of the FTF that ppl experience. I have found that sometimes the firing pin will rub on the locking piece when the hammer hits it, reducing the momentum of the pin itself which contributes to a light primer strike. With the pin oiled thinly (so thin that it won't gum up the whole assembly) I have found the FTF's dissappear and the gun will just fire away.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:49:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By books:
Specifically, what kind of ammo have you been using with your V-53 to have it function so reliably??? I'm really curious! I've heard many have had feeding problems...



I use xm193 but it will take anything you feed it! I have tried wolf winchester cheap reloads etc.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:43:47 AM EDT
No clones for self defense? Tell that to all the Kimber, Springer, Para, etc, etc. 1911 fans as those are all technically "clones" of Browning's design. I'd trust my PTR91 if I had to.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 9:17:44 AM EDT
My V-93 was on a 100% reliablity streak for around 600rds until I tried some WWB 55gr FMJ. It choked on every 3rd or 4th round. I switched back to remington 55 FMJ and she's back to her old self again. Im not sure what the deal wiht that ammo is, but I've heard others with the same complaint.

Long story short, with the right ammo, I'd trust her with my life.
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 10:00:18 AM EDT
Well I've heard that for self-defense purposes, the minimum grain that you could use in the V-53 is around 62 grain ammo. From the info I've gotten, anything under 62 grain ammo would not effectively 'fragment' the round through an 8.5 inch barrel. What's your take on this??
Link Posted: 9/16/2005 2:38:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By COMMANDO:
I have a vector 53 sbr and have also owened hk 94!
I had many fte ftf problems with the REAL hk that gun jammed almost everytime I used it!
on the other hand the v53 has run perfectly since day 1 . some shooters don't trust the clones but I would put my life on the line for mine !
I have run thousand's of rounds thru mine and love it .
Here is a picture of my v53 sbr with vector 30 rd mags



Link Posted: 9/16/2005 5:37:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2005 5:51:04 PM EDT by COMMANDO]
h
Link Posted: 9/17/2005 8:18:10 PM EDT
The thread is kind of getting off topic but since the quality of Vector's 53's has been disparraged, I guess I need to throw in my two cents. I own a V-53 that has never had a single failure to feed, eject, or fire since the day I bought it. Thus far I've put over 500 rounds through it, mostly Lake City XM855 (62g) but also Lake City XM193 (55g), American Eagle 62g, Winchester 55g, and some 45g Varmit stuff that I don't remember who made.

Personally I wouldn't use a 223 for home protection but that's just personal preference. I used a friends chronometer to measure the performance of my XM855 in the 8 inch barrel and I measured 2700 fps which is still within the range for reliable fragmentation.

My personal choices for home protection are an SBR USC converted to UMP by Tactical Excellence and a Glock 17.
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