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Posted: 8/16/2004 6:35:08 PM EST
I just contacted John MacDonald at "MacDonald Tactical" and he has informed me that he will offer the HK 416 to civilians IF it comes in a semi-auto version. Lets all cross our fingers that it does...
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:04:56 PM EST
Cool I will look forward to a HK AR-15. But I am not looking forward to paying so much for a HK416, FN P90, SIG 550 and the rest of maybe rifles. I guess I should get a loan.

Chris
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:45:39 PM EST
HK has shelved the HK416 project altogether, & has backed away from introducing anything into the civilian market out of fear of litigation. The SIG55x rumors aren't holding, either. About the only thing recently being stated was that DSA has been trying to get set up to produce US-made AUG's, but even that project is still a work in progress.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 9:09:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By UZI4you:
Cool I will look forward to a HK AR-15. But I am not looking forward to paying so much for a HK416, FN P90, SIG 550 and the rest of maybe rifles. I guess I should get a loan.

Chris



THAT gun was not an AR in any sense of the word...

It was a G36 conversion for an AR lower... You loose the 2 best features of the AR - the gas system and the sights - basically, the 2 things that make it what it is...

Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:37:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 9:55:27 AM EST by _DR]
Are you kidding? What is so great about a gas system that pukes fouling crud and gases back into the bolt group?

I have used the M16 and AR15 for more than 20 years now, and HATE that filthy gas system. A self fouling rifle, that's what it is. The HK416 conversion was the best thing that has happened to the M16/AR15 platform, and now it's going away. there's nothing good about that.

If Colt would get off their butts and devise something like this, we would all be better off. The M16/AR15 is a good platfom but is not at the pinnacle of it's development yet.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:38:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:
Are you kidding? What is so great about a gas system that pukes fouling crud and gases back into the bolt group?




Amen to that.. The gas system of the M16/AR15 is just plain stupid for a combat weapon... That is why a hangout in the HK, and AK side...
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:41:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By _DR:
Are you kidding? What is so great about a gas system that pukes fouling crud and gases back into the bolt group?




Amen to that.. The gas system of the M16/AR15 is just plain stupid for a combat weapon... That is why a hangout in the HK, and AK side...

The fact that our military uses the M16 is what makes the AR-15 soo popular.. The military uses the M16 because.. Well because someone in the government decided to buy it, and you know the good decesion making skills politicians have...
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 4:26:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By UZI4you:
Cool I will look forward to a HK AR-15. But I am not looking forward to paying so much for a HK416, FN P90, SIG 550 and the rest of maybe rifles. I guess I should get a loan.

Chris



Is the FN p90 coming in a semi auto only version?
I would LOVE to have one of them
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:40:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 8:11:23 AM EST by _DR]

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:

Originally Posted By _DR:
Are you kidding? What is so great about a gas system that pukes fouling crud and gases back into the bolt group?




Amen to that.. The gas system of the M16/AR15 is just plain stupid for a combat weapon... That is why a hangout in the HK, and AK side...

The fact that our military uses the M16 is what makes the AR-15 soo popular.. The military uses the M16 because.. Well because someone in the government decided to buy it, and you know the good decesion making skills politicians have...



Don't get me wrong - I think the AR15/M16 is an excellent weapon, but the HK type gas system is just what it needs to bring it that much closer to perfection. I shot an SL8 (civvie version of G36) last week, and all I had to do afterwards was wipe off the bolt head, run a bore snake down the bore, wipe the gas piston head off, and it was clean. The bolt carrier and receiver internals were spotless. The gas piston collects all the crud, and from what I could tell shucks the powder residue out into the handguard area from the gas block vent when firing, easy to wipe clean once field stripped. 20 minutes, max, for a spotless weapon. It takes me more than an hour to get an M16 that clean.

If the M16 had that system, it would just be THAT much better. It's sheer ignorance not to implement such a retrofit in my opinion. I would really rather see a gas piston retrofitted M16 for the Army rather than fielding the XM8. I prefer the aluminum receiver to the polymer, though the G36 is a good weapon in many respects. I guess I'm not ready for the polymer wave that is rushing over us.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:50:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 12:04:53 PM EST
In need one... NOW!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:59:22 AM EST
We were told by hk that the ones we have on order will ship in Nov.

WHO CARES, What kind of carrier it comes with, if it's a semi, we'll just weld the Trip on, NO BIG DEAL.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:02:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By LARRYG36:
We were told by hk that the ones we have on order will ship in Nov.

WHO CARES, What kind of carrier it comes with, if it's a semi, we'll just weld the Trip on, NO BIG DEAL.



Larry, got a few questions:

* Are they going ahead w/ the whole gun, or just the upper (I've heard some nice things about those HK lowers - flared mag well, captive push pins, etc)?

* How much do these weigh (bbl. looked thick)?

* Are any current rail systems compatible w/ them?

* Are they (still) going to produce a monolithic upper version?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:34:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 8:37:41 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By _DR:
Are you kidding? What is so great about a gas system that pukes fouling crud and gases back into the bolt group?

I have used the M16 and AR15 for more than 20 years now, and HATE that filthy gas system. A self fouling rifle, that's what it is. The HK416 conversion was the best thing that has happened to the M16/AR15 platform, and now it's going away. there's nothing good about that.

If Colt would get off their butts and devise something like this, we would all be better off. The M16/AR15 is a good platfom but is not at the pinnacle of it's development yet.



Gas piston uppers are nothing new guys... Colt & Co. have BTDT...

The RHINO system is IIRC, the first, it was (IIRC) evaluated and discarded by the military...

The fact is that NOT having a gas piston is a major bonus in terms of accuracy, and no major detriment to reliability in any reaslistic sense...

Sure, you get crap in the bolt group, but so what... Doesn't hurt anything... Just makes a bit more mess to clean at the end of the day... Plus, any *other* crap won't build up in the reciever, it gets blown out by the gas blast...

On the other hand, having a piston system makes for less accuracy and less controllability on full auto.

The AR is what it is because of the direct gas system, & straight line recoil transmission that accompanies it...

The only thing you get with piston op is the ability to have a folding stock, and a few minutes less cleaning time...

Personally, I'll take a little more time with the CLP (or invest in some brake cleaner), and keep the extra accuracy, thank you...

Then again, I keep my guns functionally clean, not spotless...
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:55:25 AM EST
I wouldnt mind taking that folding stock and less cleaning time
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 9:24:06 AM EST
A piston doesn't necessarily mean the rear recoil spring will be eliminated. In the case of the HK, it is, in fact, retained. The spring housing in the forearm is for the reciprocating rod+piston, not the bolt+carrier. In order for a folder to work, the std AR spring assembly would have to be replaced by ann asemmbly similar to the AK, where a guide rod & spring are set on the recoil side of the piston rod carrier key, & the upper would also have to be raised higher to accomodate this assembly (again, like the AK).
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:50:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
HK has shelved the HK416 project altogether, & has backed away from introducing anything into the civilian market out of fear of litigation.



I visited the HK factory on a tour a couple months ago, and they were just starting production on their M4 variant. I saw at least 500 forgings for the lower. That seems to be well past the prototype stage.

The sales and design guys I talked to were not confident that the AW ban would go away and stay away. They said the worldwide civilian gun market makes up less then 5% of HKs production. During the tour, I saw maybe a half dozen civilian guns. Even all the pistols being made that day were for Gov't contracts.

Remember that gun companies are a buisness. The make guns to make money. They dont just make guns as a hobby or to make civilains happy. If there is money to be made in the civilian market, they will come. But you cant expect them to set some big production line up, and invest all this cash when there is the constant threat of having your product made illegal for production overnight.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:51:36 AM EST
did anyone mention anything about the Colt Lawsuit and whether or not HK was still planning to possibly retrofit US military M16/M4s with the gas piston system? Just curious.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 11:40:55 AM EST
I love the AR, my Bushy and Colt, but I hope to see this HK variant on the market. I think November will be the watershed month instead of September. I Bush wins, I think we'll be in for some good things. HK, SIG, and Maybe FN would be fools not to sell to the civie market. Sure, there may be only a fews years to do it, but there will be lots of money to be made in those years. If the AWB goes and Bush stays, then they will come.
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