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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/12/2009 1:48:05 PM EST
1) Mag hold open: Advantage Ar
2) Magazines: Advantage HK, easier to load and better quality.
3) Ergonomics? Arguable, but I prefer the HK.
4) Stock: Advantage AR, many more posistions. (except in really early 9mm AR's.)
5) Price: Advantage AR.

Any points I am missing?
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 1:58:47 PM EST
I've had both, and I still own the mp5(clone).

on paper, the AR is everything that I thought I wanted, but could never get into it. no idea why.

the mp5 goes with me EVERY range trip. It fits me perfectly and with the SBR treatment and a can on the end it is a whole lotta fun.

so my vote goes to the mp5.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:25:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 2:25:46 PM EST by TW52]
HK-94's are way too expensive (unless you have the money) to even consider, IMO... AR platform all the way.

If this was pre-import ban... HK-94, by far.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 2:36:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By SS109:
1) Mag hold open: Advantage Ar
2) Magazines: Advantage HK, easier to load and better quality.
3) Ergonomics? Arguable, but I prefer the HK.
4) Stock: Advantage AR, many more posistions. (except in really early 9mm AR's.)
5) Price: Advantage AR.

Any points I am missing?


Ammo compatibility - Advantage AR. You really don't want to shoot cast lead bullets in an HK. A clear deciding factor for your SHTF weapon choices.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 6:19:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2009 6:19:20 PM EST by clutchsmoke]
I used to own a Colt 9mm AR and currently own a HK94. The 9mm AR has funky/ excessive recoil compared to a HK. It kicks way more than it should and kind of twists in your hands. I've also fired both side by side in full auto, there is no comparison.

There is a reason HK94s command a high price, shoot one and you will know.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 8:27:11 PM EST
Cost is clearly an important issue. My HK94 is the most expensive gun I own and it is a finish beat Cali DOJ model, but I like it much more than my early 9mm AR.

And I am taking the '94 out shooting tomorrow.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 8:51:12 PM EST
I have an Mp5 and M-16 in 9mm. The Mp5 seems to be lighter and has less recoil and is very comfortable to shoot, very smooth shooting. The M-16 trigger is lighter for sure, and it's easier to mount optics to it. The Mp5 magazines are better for sure. If using the last round hold open on the M-16 i only like the old Colt magazines with the steel follower, however if you drop the mag it will dump the bullets, and good luck finding these mags also. I prefer the iron sights of the Mp5, of course you can get similar sights on the M-16 as well. I just love doing the HK slap, it's fun. You can put a side folding stock on the Mp5, cant with the M-16 9mm.
Link Posted: 9/12/2009 10:10:58 PM EST
You forgot reliability. My HK94 NEVER malfunctions and I've seen many a 9mm AR give people problems at our local matches.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 2:02:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 2:04:13 AM EST by drfcolt]
Here's the results from a recent Knob Creek subgun competition .................. seems like a pretty even mix of MP-5's and M-16/9"s ..............

Closed Bolt Optic Sights
Place Name Gun Score
1 Blaschik, Andy MP5 79.50
2 Parker, Jeremy M16 82.80
3 Carpenter, Tom MP5 83.42
4 Winters, Paul M16 84.16
5 Laub, Pete M16 88.33
6 Clayton, James MP5 98.88
7 Ditullio, Daniel MP5 105.16
8 Herber, Mark MP5 106.43
9 Waters III, John B. MP5 106.55
10 Sawyer, III, MG Uzi 107.69
11 Holden, J.L. MP5 111.43
12 Holmes, Tony M16 112.37
13 McReynolds, Jamie MP5 114.49
14 Essling, Bill M16 118.19
15 Seissiger, Gene MP5 120.48
16 Davis, Malcome M16 124.48
17 Bryant, Robby MP5 127.07
18 Seigmund, Todd MP5 128.98
19 Mangum, Wyatt M16 129.72
20 Hineline, David M16 135.57
21 Tapar, Paul M16 137.08
22 Stowe, Jr., Richard A. M16 143.14
23 Winthrop, Mike MP5 143.45
24 Varner, Ed MP5 151.66
25 Ezendam, Thomas M16 154.03
26 McCauley, D.A. MP5 166.67
27 Damazo, Lane MP5 172.70
28 Morris, Gary M16 173.83
29 Mohler, Mark MP5 180.09
30 Sumner, Bruce M16-45 Cal 193.84
31 Lawson, Corkie M16 194.67
32 Baillie, Joel MP5 195.04
33 Steedly, George M16 199.24
34 Phillips, Chuck MP5 SD 200.31
35 Schmidlin, Dave MP5 224.31
36 Winters, Neal M16 225.39
37 Goodwin, Ed MP5 242.06
38 Erickson, John M16 244.88
39 Meier, Tom MP5 246.60
40 Stowe, Richard A. M16 277.27
41 Trepper, Pete MP5 475.08
42 Mendenhall, Monty M16 DNF
43 Nichols, Curtis M16 DNF
44 Pandiscia, Brian TP9 DNF
45 Weaver, Jim M16 DNF

Closed Bolt Iron Sight
Place Name Gun Score
1 Carpenter, Tom MP5 83.61
2 Winters, Paul M16 92.82
3 Blaschik, Andy MP5 96.02
4 Parker, Jeremy M16 98.70
5 McReynolds, Jamie MP5 106.31
6 Phillips, Chuck MP5 SD 108.08
7 Kummer, Mike Reising 110.83
8 Herber, Mark MP5 112.77
9 Tapar, Paul M16 126.08
10 Mohler, Mark MP5 131.18
11 Hall, Jeffrey MP5 131.37
12 Holmes, Tony M16 132.27
13 Darnell, Bob MP5 133.04
14 Reiff, Chris Reising 136.45
15 Essling, Bill M16 147.73
16 Varner, Ed MP5 148.02
17 Davis, Malcome M16 150.43
18 Holden, J.L. MP5 161.64
19 Winters, Neal M16 161.97
20 Steedly, George M16 163.77
21 Baillie, Joel MP5 168.88
22 Richardson, Brad MP5 173.06
23 Sawyer, III, MG Uzi 185.87
24 Laub, Pete M16 188.05
25 Christopher, James V. Reising 196.71
26 Dobbins, Hugh MP5 199.79
27 Gelb-Hill, Aaron MP5 212.63
28 Ezendam, Thomas M16 213.95
29 Feldbrugge, Keith Reising - 45 Cal 219.19
30 Angel, Curtis M16 261.37
31 Schmidlin, Dave MP5 271.37
32 Couch, Dave M16 346.55
33 Mavar, Gary Reising 355.32
34 Winthrop, Mike MP5 DNS
35 Bane, Dave UMP9 DNF
36 Matis, Jeff Reising DNF
37 Mendenhall, Monty M16 DNF
38 Weaver, Jim M16 DNF

Link Posted: 9/13/2009 5:17:58 AM EST
AR's in 9mm are crap. It was never intended to be a blowback operated gun, and it shows when it breaks.

The HK is not a modification of a rifle caliber carbine into a pistol caliber carbine, and it shows in how much better it works. Too bad it's so expensive. I'm happy to go without the bolt hold open to have a gun that will work.

You don't find broken hammer pins on HKs, if you have been around AR's in 9mm very long, you know to expect breakages.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 5:29:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 5:39:15 AM EST by drfcolt]
Not hardly crap .....

If you check my previous post, there are 38 MP5's and 34 M16/9's listed (1 M16/45) .......... pretty close ..............

Replace the hammer-pins in the M16/9 with stainless ($20) and have the bolt ramped ($50) and you will have a very nice running 9MM subgun and never have a hammer-pin failure again.

I had a dedicated EA/RR M16/9 with 4-position internals and a Gemtech Talon/SD 9MM suppressed upper with the above mods and it was VERY nice and extremely accurate.

Link Posted: 9/13/2009 5:58:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By SS109:
1) Mag hold open: Advantage Ar
2) Magazines: Advantage HK, easier to load and better quality.
3) Ergonomics? Arguable, but I prefer the HK.
4) Stock: Advantage AR, many more posistions. (except in really early 9mm AR's.)
5) Price: Advantage AR.

Any points I am missing?



nope



The AR is much more versitile than a 94. The AR can be configured in almost any way. The HK is pretty much 'maxed out' in the production models. You can swap stocks and play with optic mounts, might install a hideous rail up front, but that is about it.




Link Posted: 9/13/2009 6:21:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By drfcolt:
Not hardly crap .....

If you check my previous post, there are 38 MP5's and 34 M16/9's listed (1 M16/45) .......... pretty close ..............

Replace the hammer-pins in the M16/9 with stainless ($20) and have the bolt ramped ($50) and you will have a very nice running 9MM subgun and never have a hammer-pin failure again.

I had a dedicated EA/RR M16/9 with 4-position internals and a Gemtech Talon/SD 9MM suppressed upper with the above mods and it was VERY nice and extremely accurate.



I shoot colt SMG's(635) on a regular basis and if there are 10 of us shooting on a given day, 1 will go down. We are not permitted to ramp the bolt, which would certainly help, but those stainless pins break too. I'd much rather shoot an M4 with a 10.5" barrel.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 6:33:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 6:37:17 AM EST by drfcolt]
Originally Posted By bolster:
Originally Posted By drfcolt:
Not hardly crap .....

If you check my previous post, there are 38 MP5's and 34 M16/9's listed (1 M16/45) .......... pretty close ..............

Replace the hammer-pins in the M16/9 with stainless ($20) and have the bolt ramped ($50) and you will have a very nice running 9MM subgun and never have a hammer-pin failure again.

I had a dedicated EA/RR M16/9 with 4-position internals and a Gemtech Talon/SD 9MM suppressed upper with the above mods and it was VERY nice and extremely accurate.



I shoot colt SMG's(635) on a regular basis and if there are 10 of us shooting on a given day, 1 will go down. We are not permitted to ramp the bolt, which would certainly help, but those stainless pins break too. I'd much rather shoot an M4 with a 10.5" barrel.


Bolt ramping is a definite plus and would take care of the broken stainless hammer/trigger pins, too - smooooths it out and no more trigger-sting.

MP5 is king, but (properly modded), the M16/9 ain't too bad.

But, as you stated above, it was an after-thought to the M16.

You're right, give me an M4 with a short-barrel anytime.

Link Posted: 9/13/2009 7:42:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By Rokchukrslave:
You forgot reliability. My HK94 NEVER malfunctions and I've seen many a 9mm AR give people problems at our local matches.


I agree. Took a carbine course with my colt, out of about 800 rounds of federal brass it jammed 4 times. Some were mag related but what difference does that make? A jam is a jam.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 8:52:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 8:54:48 AM EST by Lympago]

Out of the 2 I'd go with the HK94. I prefer the stamped steel receiver and feel of the carbine that was specifically designed for that caliber unlike the AR that was just modified. I can't say I've found a 94 copy that I've ever liked the quality of though and the actual HK94's available have always been overpriced to me.

I no longer have a need for a pistol caliber carbine owning a CX4 though. Not only does it very accurately and reliably shoot 9mm which I want being as it's cheaper than other rounds, has low recoil for my family who would use it and is in common with my pistols, but runs the same magazines. You might consider it as another option. They have excellent ergo's for me even though ergo's are personal. They may be the same for you and there also ultra light besides the other features and characteristics.





CX4Storm.com

Link Posted: 9/13/2009 8:55:32 AM EST
Get both







Link Posted: 9/13/2009 11:13:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By drfcolt:
Originally Posted By bolster:
Originally Posted By drfcolt:
Not hardly crap .....

If you check my previous post, there are 38 MP5's and 34 M16/9's listed (1 M16/45) .......... pretty close ..............

Replace the hammer-pins in the M16/9 with stainless ($20) and have the bolt ramped ($50) and you will have a very nice running 9MM subgun and never have a hammer-pin failure again.

I had a dedicated EA/RR M16/9 with 4-position internals and a Gemtech Talon/SD 9MM suppressed upper with the above mods and it was VERY nice and extremely accurate.



I shoot colt SMG's(635) on a regular basis and if there are 10 of us shooting on a given day, 1 will go down. We are not permitted to ramp the bolt, which would certainly help, but those stainless pins break too. I'd much rather shoot an M4 with a 10.5" barrel.


Bolt ramping is a definite plus and would take care of the broken stainless hammer/trigger pins, too - smooooths it out and no more trigger-sting.

MP5 is king, but (properly modded), the M16/9 ain't too bad.

But, as you stated above, it was an after-thought to the M16.

You're right, give me an M4 with a short-barrel anytime.



On the bright-side, I shouldn't piss and moan about getting paid to shoot machine guns. I will say that I have no accuracy issues with the SMG.

If Colt would simply ramp the bolt from the factory, we would see fewer breakages. What bothers me is that when the hammer pin breaks, it will often go full auto (in semi-mode), as the autosear can no longer make contact with the hammer once it moves out of position.

Do you have a Ceiner kit for your '16? That would be my choice with ammo prices where they are now.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 12:42:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 1:08:28 PM EST by drfcolt]
Originally Posted By bolster:

Do you have a Ceiner kit for your '16? That would be my choice with ammo prices where they are now.


I have a suppressed/dedicated Kuehl based set-up:
- factory Colt M16-A1 lower
- Kuehl dedicated 5.5" 22LR upper (www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/KPF%20.22%20upper-bbl%20photo%20gallery.htm)
- Gemtech Hornet 22LR suppressor
- Black-Dog mags
- SPOT red-dot optic

Runs 100% in semi and full auto with Winchester DynaPoints - rated "high velocity", but stay subsonic ...... can run it anywhere, even in my basement ..............

Bulk stuff is cheaper, but just not consistant enough for me in full-auto - OK in semi ...............



Standard configuration ............. these are the only two configurations I now have ...... sold off my 11.5" M4 and 9MM set-ups to finance some other "conventional" firearms ................... too expensive and no place to fire them .................



Link Posted: 9/13/2009 1:07:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 1:46:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bryan_Aim:
if you shoot them the same day you will never shoot the 9mm AR again, they feel like a jack hammer compared to a smooth MP5.


My 9mm used to feel like a jack hammer. I don't have a weight in the bolt and I have a Enidine Hydraulic Buffer. I would compare it to shooting a MP5. The AR/M16 has the advantage as far as ergonomics and available accessories IMO. I prefer my M16/9 over my buddies MP5.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 3:05:10 PM EST
night and day,

ruff blowback heavy ar15

smooth as silk HK

you decide.

I have both and run both F/A with cans, really no comparison.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:24:20 PM EST
HK94/Clone all the way.

Much smoother, more reliable, better mags, lower recoil.

I have a late run cast SW5 that is at 8 or 9k down the pipe and I have less in it than a comparable AR platform.

As others have said the AR's tend to break triggers, bolt stops and trigger pins.

I win a bunch of PCC stages just because my gun runs.

Bryan is right, shoot the HK/Clone and the AR and you will never want the AR again.

Besides there is nothing sexier than a collapsible stock HK.

Jeff
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 12:17:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bryan_Aim:
if you shoot them the same day you will never shoot the 9mm AR again, they feel like a jack hammer compared to a smooth MP5.


+100 I had just got my SW5A a couple weeks ago and only shot it twice before yesterday when I shot both trying out my new Trident The HK style gun was much smoother, quieter & fun to shoot than the 9mm AR.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 7:28:28 AM EST
I wanted an MP5 clone for years, I finally decided to do something about it. When I couldn't find a decent one for under $3000 and the Special Weapons clones were running $2200+ and I might have to tinker to get it to run, I built myself a 7.5" barrel 9mm AR SBR, yes the recoil is harsher but ergos are better and it has a LRBHO. I should have bought one of those Bobcat MP5's a few years ago. Best part about the AR is that I can swap on a SBR 5.56 upper whenever I want. It's like multiple guns in one. If I found a decent MP5 clone for under $2k, I would buy one but that is not likely.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 8:53:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2009 8:54:19 AM EST by SS109]
Originally Posted By G-lock:
HK94 all the way.



Besides there is nothing sexier than a collapsible stock HK.

Jeff


+1 about the collapsible stock, but when I am actually competing I use the fixed.

Just went through 400 rounds on 124grain FMJ on Monday, not a single hiccup, even with the straight magazines.




Link Posted: 9/15/2009 3:03:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2009 3:04:24 PM EST by G-lock]
Originally Posted By SS109:
Originally Posted By G-lock:
HK94 all the way.



Besides there is nothing sexier than a collapsible stock HK.

Jeff


+1 about the collapsible stock, but when I am actually competing I use the fixed.

Just went through 400 rounds on 124grain FMJ on Monday, not a single hiccup, even with the straight magazines.


I do the same, but there is nothing like an A3. Jeff



Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:41:36 PM EST
I own both and to be honest, I shot my Colt 9mm AR-15 far more than my HK94... My HK-94 is a better weapon, but I'm more familiar with the M-16/AR-15 system.

BTW, I've shot both the Colt SMG and HK MP-5 many times in the past and both of them are winners with the HK only winning since its slightly a smoother firing weapon in F/A.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 4:15:26 AM EST
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