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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Green is better (Page 2 of 4)
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Link Posted: 9/24/2020 6:38:15 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC:

Our L3 Unfilmed as of late are averaging 33-35 S/N.
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Nice. Are we talking a decrease in ebi and halo as well?
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 8:04:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC:

Our L3 Unfilmed as of late are averaging 33-35 S/N.
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holy crapballs...

so this time next year we will be seeing on average tubes with 41-45 snr?

maybe its a good thing im holding onto my money a little more and didnt already order some RNVG's
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 9:48:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2020 9:49:05 AM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 10:05:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 10:12:05 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC:


That is about right.  We've already seen the uptick across the board in both the 11769 and 10160 formats.  These based on hundreds and hundreds of tubes.
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L3H FILMLESS
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 10:21:45 AM EST
Ive tried WP, I do like it, but for civilian use GP is more than sufficient and saves you some money.
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 3:27:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 4:09:08 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC:


Yes, I'm having several hundred sheets pulled from last few months and will report back in a bit.
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I feel better about my first NODS having .2 EBI, 33-34 SNR now :D
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 9:12:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By markymarkkev:


I feel better about my first NODS having .2 EBI, 33-34 SNR now :D
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You should, those are nice specs!
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 9:52:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC:


That is about right.  We've already seen the uptick across the board in both the 11769 and 10160 formats.  These based on hundreds and hundreds of tubes.
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Wait are “we” as in civilians going to potentially be seeing low to mid 40’s for snr next year or is that what L3 should be able to achieve. Meaning if civilians could see low to mid 40’s will the cool guys be getting tubes in the high 40’s to low 50’s for snr?

If so that’s nuts.  Is resolution going up too?
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 9:54:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Ive tried WP, I do like it, but for civilian use GP is more than sufficient and saves you some money.
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Fair statement. Sometimes I look through my film less WP’s and am glad I bought but sometimes I ask myself why I tied up so much money in then I could have saved 2 grand going green.
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 11:12:46 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AIWB:



Fair statement. Sometimes I look through my film less WP’s and am glad I bought but sometimes I ask myself why I tied up so much money in then I could have saved 2 grand going green.
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Where are you seeing a 2 grand savings by going with GP? Most places I've seen it's maybe a $1k saving for duals. I'm not talking about any sales/specials. Just average pricing from vendors I've talked to during my buying process.

If you could get L3 Filmless GP for 2 grand less I would think the market for Elbits/Photonis stuff would shrink quite a bit.
Link Posted: 9/24/2020 11:35:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackhalo:


Where are you seeing a 2 grand savings by going with GP? Most places I've seen it's maybe a $1k saving for duals. I'm not talking about any sales/specials. Just average pricing from vendors I've talked to during my buying process.

If you could get L3 Filmless GP for 2 grand less I would think the market for Elbits/Photonis stuff would shrink quite a bit.
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I run dual 14’s. Figure around $800-$1000 extra per 14. High spec L3 WP filmless is around $4000, at least when I bought. Green 14’s from JRH - $2899. Again, when I was in the market.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 6:19:30 AM EST
I Love my clean green precious. Sure I'd love white too. I just love night vision and shooting in the dark with suppressors. Its gotta be in the top 10 coolest things ever.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 2:59:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 3:05:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2020 3:18:29 PM EST by Synyster06Gates]
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
I strongly prefer WP to GP, despite having "come up" with green.

That being said, phosphor color is pretty low down on my list of priorities, for example as I've said multiple times before I'd take "meh" GP binos over the best UF WP PVS-14 I've looked through in most situations if the choice were offered.

Couple things I've noticed over the years--intended as general data points, not trying to tell anyone else that they're wrong, as again, it is very clear that there's a strong component of personal preference, and everyone's eyes and brains are slightly different in the way they process NV. Working full time in NV has made me very interested in the different ways that different people process visual inputs--I think that we often assume that everyone else "sees" like we see, when in fact there can be quite a bit of difference in how different people process the same images, colors, and lighting conditions.

Broadly construed:

- With no previous exposure or experience with NV, most people immediately prefer WP--probably having to do with a more "natural" image. The corollary to this is that most of the people whom I encounter that prefer GP tend to have used it quite a bit, and have achieved a certain level of familiarity and comfort with it, and WP may, among other things, simply be "too different" than what their neural pathways have locked in in terms of processing NV images

- This could even potentially result in a physiological/psychological reason for preference for some people, regardless of science suggesting that in general white may have significant advantages. Depending on your mental plumbing, if you needed to rearrange things to "get used to" GP, it may be difficult for you to rearrange them again for WP and trying to "go against the grain" might literally cause more eye strain and fatigue. At the same time, some people are able to switch from one to another and immediately have a preference for WP, and/or can switch back and forth at will with no issues, again, different people, different brains, different ways of responding to the same stimuli

- A significant number of people, possibly correlated with eye color, tend to actually prefer darker images. This is not just with image intensifier tubes, but with any screens in general. This does however relate to night vision not only in terms of WP generally being perceived as brighter than GP even at the same intensity, but also certain types of filtering, lenses and lens accessories, gain control, etc.,

- At the same time, in general, darker images tend to mean you can see less, less detail, not as far into dark spaces--the question also becomes at what point have you reached a point of diminishing returns between comfort and visibility. That point may be different for different people.

Personally, having spent many a night sitting on top of mountains staring at goats with hemorrhoid pillows for butts in a single green monocular, for me I can "stay in" WP for much longer than I can with GP. That is to say, I would and still do frequently take "breaks" when appropriate while wearing NODs, which could be as simple as flipping the goggle up and blinking a couple of times and taking a breath before putting them back in the deployed position. With WP, I find myself needing to do this far less than with GP--both in how long it takes before I have to do it the first time ("breaking the seal," as some might say), and how frequently I feel compelled to do it once I start.

Moreover, I would say that I feel less tired using WP than GP over the same duration, which on the one hand could relate to the "blue light" and "looking at screens before bed"--it could simply feel that GP is "less harsh," and almost encourages circadian rhythms to take over, while WP short circuits them--but the end result for me is feeling more alert for longer.

Finally, in terms of the afterimage (the pink/purple/red hue after looking through GP goggles), I do perceive this, and logic would suggest that most people do perceive it with WP, however, with most WP images having a bluish cast when powered up, not start black and white/grayscale, rather than having a red dominant cast, I find that it is much more of a pale yellow when using WP, which in turn feels more natural and is less therefore less noticeable (e.g., many interior lights also tend to have a slight yellowish cast to them as well, typically advertised as "daylight" versus "pure white") to the extent that some people may not even realize that it's happening versus the extreme obviousness of everything suddenly being pink.  

~Augee
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So I'm genuinely curious - let's say assuming you choose meh binos over a high spec mono - would you take a lower spec GP dedicated bino over a mid-higher spec set of bridged WP 14s?

Just wondering where weight falls into the equation along with specs and everything
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 3:26:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 4:30:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2020 4:32:45 PM EST by Synyster06Gates]
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:


Do you mean a lower spec GP bino?

Personally, assuming that we're placing a realistic cap on what we mean by "lower spec," insofar as we're talking about, say, a 1600 FOM GP versus 2200 FOM WP and not, say, a 1000 FOM toasted and blemmed to shit green tube(s) to try to nitpick and find a situation that would be an exception, in general if given the choice:

I'll always take two tubes over one.

I'll always take a dedicated set of binos over bridged PVS-14s.

To me it's almost less a matter of weight with bridged PVS-14s as it is long-term fatigue.

I can (and have) throw on a set of bridged PVS-14s with one OMNI III tube and one OMNI VII tube. Or even with a GP OMNI VIII tube and a WP Photonis ECHO, and I'll be just fine... for a while.

Over longer periods however, for me at least, the excess processing power my brain is using to resolve those images will result in... really just, reduced ability to concentrate and focus, and increased fatigue over time/need to take breaks.

Ironically, blems are almost irrelevant to me as long as tube quality and alignment are good though--as long it's easy to "stitch together" a complete image from two eyes, it's all good.

~Augee
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Yeah that's what I meant. I was considering RNVGs, but at the same time my wife actually does enjoy going out with a 14 with me so getting an RNVG would essentially keep that from happening (unless I just saved for longer to get both). I figured a PBM with two nice filmless 14s would work pretty well at the expense of being heavy. I'm not out kicking doors or wearing them for hours on end, so weight isn't a huge issue for me.

Can you run the PBM with only one 14 connected when she does want to go out or do I need to look for a different bridge like the KVC (even though I lose central power)
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 4:37:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2020 4:44:58 PM EST by will-1]
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:



So I'm genuinely curious - let's say assuming you choose meh binos over a high spec mono - would you take a lower spec GP dedicated bino over a mid-higher spec set of bridged WP 14s?

Just wondering where weight falls into the equation along with specs and everything
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This one again, LOL.

I've gotten this question from many guys and it's hard to answer for someone else. No doubt lighter is better overall but ultimately higher performance is higher performance.

If you're talking -14's with higher spec filmless WP, then I'd take those over the lower spec thin filmed GP all day every day. I'm all about having as much performance as possible. However, I know from experience that I can handle the weight and that it works pretty decent for me. Wearing full face m/c helmets for years helped I suppose, lol. Whole different story if someone can't handle the weight of dual -14's. Higher performance goes out the window if you're completely miserable because you'll end up barely using it or even selling it.

This may or may not be a good example but it's kind of similar to buying backpacks, boots, etc. when you've never hiked before. If a pro or someone with experience takes the time with you to figure out what you're doing/goal is, their advice will almost certainly set you straight to get started. However, once you start actually doing it you'll have a better idea of how much weight you can carry, the size of your pack, if more $$ gear is worth it to you or not, etc etc etc. And your tastes/choices may or may not evolve or change the longer you do it, including going backwards, lol. It's like how some guys switch to only thermal, thermal & NV, NV only, magnified optics, or even to no NV and good old fashioned white/red light.

ETA: I've switched numerous times between dual -14's and different bino housings fixed & articulated. I still haven't found the "perfect" set up for me that I'd stick with but that's because it's a moving target depending on what's available on the market and my mood that month I think it's worth trying out different housings/tubes/optics/etc. that's part of the fun.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 4:41:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By will-1:


This one again, LOL.

I've gotten this question from many guys and it's hard to answer for someone else. No doubt lighter is better overall but ultimately higher performance is higher performance.

If you're talking -14's with higher spec filmless WP, then I'd take those over the lower spec thin filmed GP all day every day. I'm all about having as much performance as possible. However, I know from experience that I can handle the weight and that it works pretty decent for me. Wearing full face m/c helmets for years helped I suppose, lol. Whole different story if someone can't handle the weight of dual -14's. Higher performance goes out the window if you're completely miserable because you'll end up barely using it or even selling it.

This may or may not be a good example but it's kind of similar to buying backpacks, boots, etc. when you've never hiked before. If a pro or someone with experience takes the time with you to figure out what you're doing/goal is, their advice will almost certainly set you straight to get started. However, once you start actually doing it you'll have a better idea of how much weight you can carry, the size of your pack, if more $$ gear is worth it to you or not, etc etc etc. And your tastes/choices may or may not evolve or change the longer you do it, including going backwards, lol. It's like how some guys switch to only thermal, thermal & NV, NV only, magnified optics, or even to no NV and good old fashioned white/red light.
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Exactly. I'm trying to justify getting another 14 rather than going dedicated duals, because like I said my wife does actually enjoy going out on hikes and everything with NV on - so having two devices when she wants to go would be a huge plus. Then I have binos when she doesnt
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 4:54:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:



Exactly. I'm trying to justify getting another 14 rather than going dedicated duals, because like I said my wife does actually enjoy going out on hikes and everything with NV on - so having two devices when she wants to go would be a huge plus. Then I have binos when she doesnt
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That's exactly how I got started. I would make sure she's okay running a mono before doing that. My ole lady said she was but when we'd really get doing something it was obvious she wasn't. So monos turned into duals and duals turned into binos, then more binos.

In your case, since you've used a lot of tubes and probably know what you like, I'd suggest binos and a mono. Give her the binos and run the mono when together and then binos for you every time else.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 6:11:48 PM EST
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Originally Posted By will-1:


That's exactly how I got started. I would make sure she's okay running a mono before doing that. My ole lady said she was but when we'd really get doing something it was obvious she wasn't. So monos turned into duals and duals turned into binos, then more binos.

In your case, since you've used a lot of tubes and probably know what you like, I'd suggest binos and a mono. Give her the binos and run the mono when together and then binos for you every time else.
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Originally Posted By will-1:
Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:



Exactly. I'm trying to justify getting another 14 rather than going dedicated duals, because like I said my wife does actually enjoy going out on hikes and everything with NV on - so having two devices when she wants to go would be a huge plus. Then I have binos when she doesnt


That's exactly how I got started. I would make sure she's okay running a mono before doing that. My ole lady said she was but when we'd really get doing something it was obvious she wasn't. So monos turned into duals and duals turned into binos, then more binos.

In your case, since you've used a lot of tubes and probably know what you like, I'd suggest binos and a mono. Give her the binos and run the mono when together and then binos for you every time else.



Maybe she'd be fine with some green RNVGs.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 6:29:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ARShooter91:



Maybe she'd be fine with some green RNVGs.
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She calls any green phosphor tubes any more "peasant shit" after using my filmless WP tubes lol.

We're both good with monos - her parents have a 14 at the house we've been using for hikes. Of course, she takes my WP and I'm stuck with green
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 6:56:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2020 6:59:07 PM EST by TNVC_Augee]
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 6:56:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:


She calls any green phosphor tubes any more "peasant shit" after using my filmless WP tubes lol.

We're both good with monos - her parents have a 14 at the house we've been using for hikes. Of course, she takes my WP and I'm stuck with green
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See what you've done! Just like someone skipping a Rhino 1 and jarm going straight to an INVG and DDA.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 8:22:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:


She calls any green phosphor tubes any more "peasant shit" after using my filmless WP tubes lol.

We're both good with monos - her parents have a 14 at the house we've been using for hikes. Of course, she takes my WP and I'm stuck with green
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Sounds like it’s dual -14’s !
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 8:50:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By will-1:


Sounds like it’s dual -14’s !
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Gross
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 8:57:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2020 8:59:45 PM EST by ARShooter91]
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:


She calls any green phosphor tubes any more "peasant shit" after using my filmless WP tubes lol.

We're both good with monos - her parents have a 14 at the house we've been using for hikes. Of course, she takes my WP and I'm stuck with green
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Wifes peasant tube setup

Link Posted: 9/25/2020 10:20:43 PM EST
I've never looked through a green tube in person, but in photos and to my eye without comparison, white looks far more natural and has better contrast.  It seems like my brain would constantly be telling me "this isn't right" with green.  Kinda like with mono vs. dual.  I'm not sorry I ponied up the extra for WP.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 10:40:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
I've never looked through a green tube in person, but in photos and to my eye without comparison, white looks far more natural and has better contrast.  It seems like my brain would constantly be telling me "this isn't right" with green.  Kinda like with mono vs. dual.  I'm not sorry I ponied up the extra for WP.
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I agree in pics WP looks much better but as you know pics don't do Nods justice. It's hard to capture what green looks like IMO. At least to my eyes green never looks quite like pics or video. Buying new the cost difference is minimal, used is another story.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 11:07:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:



Exactly. I'm trying to justify getting another 14 rather than going dedicated duals, because like I said my wife does actually enjoy going out on hikes and everything with NV on - so having two devices when she wants to go would be a huge plus. Then I have binos when she doesnt
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MOD-3 might be worth looking into for you then.  Seems much better than a pair of 14s to me, but can still be split up and used as monos.
Link Posted: 9/25/2020 11:16:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By tlandoe07:


Gross
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You’re right, awesome!
Link Posted: 9/26/2020 8:52:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2020 8:58:40 PM EST by tlandoe07]
One thing that is worth mentioning, as of September 2020, SOCOM is ordering both white and green filmless super tubes.

Check out page 35 of this document (10160UG-SA-C00-1597)
Link Posted: 9/26/2020 9:03:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By tlandoe07:
One thing that is worth mentioning, as of September 2020, SOCOM is ordering both white and green filmless super tubes.

Check out page 35 of this document (10160UG-SA-C00-1597)
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I need that kind of budget. Lol
Link Posted: 9/27/2020 9:34:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2020 9:24:06 PM EST
@Blackhalo

When we getting some filmless green pics for the cause?
Link Posted: 10/1/2020 10:22:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ARShooter91:
@Blackhalo

When we getting some filmless green pics for the cause?
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I'll get some this weekend for sure man
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 7:46:21 AM EST
I've got some filmless green DTNVGs coming in on Monday so I can add to this thread as well.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 8:47:41 AM EST
A while ago when my wife put on my WP L3 tubes for the first time she immediately notified me that they were now hers and I could use the Green “Pauper“ tubes. Lol.

The only upside to her buying purses that range in multiple thousands is she can’t bitch when I buy NV stuff!
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 9:15:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:
I've got some filmless green DTNVGs coming in on Monday so I can add to this thread as well.
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Nice. From NVI? Think there a couple of us here in this thread that jumped on those.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 9:19:15 AM EST
I use an amber filter so it makes no difference to me.  I'd also rather just have a blem free tube.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 9:38:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:
I've got some filmless green DTNVGs coming in on Monday so I can add to this thread as well.
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Nice 👍
Looking forward to some comparison pics
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 10:22:37 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackhalo:


Nice. From NVI? Think there a couple of us here in this thread that jumped on those.
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Originally Posted By Blackhalo:
Originally Posted By Synyster06Gates:
I've got some filmless green DTNVGs coming in on Monday so I can add to this thread as well.


Nice. From NVI? Think there a couple of us here in this thread that jumped on those.


I've have some 2400fom min GP Filmless tubes coming in the next few days

Link Posted: 10/2/2020 11:06:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ARShooter91:


I've have some 2400fom min GP Filmless tubes coming in the next few days

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Nice! Need more details

What housing you putting them in? What vendor? I don't see many places carrying GP Filmless stuff.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 1:21:47 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackhalo:


Nice! Need more details

What housing you putting them in? What vendor? I don't see many places carrying GP Filmless stuff.
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They'll go in an avs6 for testing and my Sentinel if I can burn out the blems enough. These were bought from an individual.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 1:49:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackhalo:


Nice! Need more details

What housing you putting them in? What vendor? I don't see many places carrying GP Filmless stuff.
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Those are actually from me. There are a few places that still offer green unfilmed tubes now and then. Nivisys being the more predominant one in my experience
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 2:02:59 PM EST
I'm looking forward to what ARShooter91 thinks of the unfilmed compared to the M890's and F9800TG's. Bro, you're running out housings, lol.

I was greenless for a minute but I've been made whole again and gotta say green ain't so bad.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 2:57:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By will-1:
I'm looking forward to what ARShooter91 thinks of the unfilmed compared to the M890's and F9800TG's. Bro, you're running out housings, lol.

I was greenless for a minute but I've been made whole again and gotta say green ain't so bad.
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I am out! Couple oculars and I can use the -9 but I have 2 tubes sitting in my rmr case as is. Now I've got these filmless coming haha

The M890s and the TGs are so so close. The TGs have a smaller halo but the 890s have a slightly cleaner image, maybe. Could be the lobed lenses that help get the focus perfect.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 10:14:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:

Broadly construed:

- With no previous exposure or experience with NV, most people immediately prefer WP--probably having to do with a more "natural" image. The corollary to this is that most of the people whom I encounter that prefer GP tend to have used it quite a bit, and have achieved a certain level of familiarity and comfort with it, and WP may, among other things, simply be "too different" than what their neural pathways have locked in in terms of processing NV images

~Augee
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Basically what we found when I worked at AFRL.  My Colonels and Lt. Colonels preferred Green.  The Captains and Lieutenants liked white better.
Link Posted: 10/2/2020 10:59:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By NVGdude:


Basically what we found when I worked at AFRL.  My Colonels and Lt. Colonels preferred Green.  The Captains and Lieutenants liked white better.
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I’m a CPT and prefer green
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Green is better (Page 2 of 4)
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