Based on the sellers feedback and status on this site I used friends and family - ugh! After a scam a few months back I started using goods and services much more often though

i filed a claim and PP denied it since it was past 180 days.

did you provide the DHS letter?

Delete

Lol a guy steals and sells night vision to well over 100 people and the guy that wanted to check with the manufacturer to verify his tubes should be worried?

i did a dispute/claim and i filled out the form.  after i hit send, i got a PP email saying its over 180 days and they are denying it.

Recieved the email and responded. Bought tubes from the guy that now reside in my rnvgs... which were installed by glynn who I bought the housing from (ironic considering his Instagram comments). What a shit show. I work hard for my money and this was over a year ago so paypal is out of the question. If I have to turn them in I guess Ill get to pony up for WP tubes.... yaaaaayyyyyyy

Love that group, it's a good place.

I’ve started using G/S exclusively after a close call.

It costs 3% so I try to negotiate that in. If I have to, I’ll cover the 3% though because with G/S, I can use a CC instead of bank account. My CC is 2% cash back, so net cost to me is 1% for the extra protection.

I use it for any purchase over about $100. Saved my balls on the tubes and has protected me on other purchases.

Did you also pay with a card? You might get some additional protection there.

There is so much detail and explanation missing from this whole situation and it is devolving into speculation. I asked if DHS Special Agent Hunter Durham come here and post an update for clarification during my phone conversation with him, but am unsure if that is even a possibility as they build a case against Lamneth. It sounds like the purpose of the email letter was to provide that clarification, but for many of us, it just lead to more questions/speculation.

With that being said, we also do not know for certain that 100% of the devices were stolen. Hunter told me to assume that anything purchased from Lamneth is potentially stolen property. I even requested a list of serial numbers for the tubes/devices in question that are confirmed stolen. However, I do not believe that is going to happen, which has me wondering if such a list is possible for us to obtain. If that type of list exists, it would be possible for us to keep a watchful eye as those devices pop up for sale on the secondary market, since we're such a niche group.

My understanding is that Lamneth also took items in on trade or partial trade, which possibly mixes in a pool of legitimately acquired tubes into the mix and complicates things even more (hence my question above).

I am appalled that this type of situation could have gone on for 4-5 years unchecked with ITAR restricted gear, and little to no security measure in place to prevent this type of theft. Beyond just a bunch of hunters and hobbyists buying these things, how do they know that some of these Gen 3 devices that were possibly from DoE, BLM, etc (ASU-NVG customer base per the website) contracts did not end up resold and shipped off to foreign entities?!? :(
How could one employee go on unchecked for so many years illegally selling protected technology? It reads as if the vendor was negligent in tracking these devices internally, and they could have ended up in the hands of anyone - including foreign nationals.

The DHS Special Agent did indicate that we would be contacted with additional information once the initial review is completed, but I was not provided any sort of timeline. As this plays out, hopefully changes occur so it can't happen again.

Armchair lawyer time:

When he states you are to assume the tubes are stolen, he's not saying that you are bound by the fact they are stolen property and have to give them up right away. What it does do, however, is inform you that there is now a potential you are in possession of stolen property and if you suddenly decide to sell them on the EE and delete the messages of who you sold it to, it's not gonna be a good day for you. There is technically no legal obligation placed on you other than anything you might do that could be considered an obstruction - which can happen even if the tubes are not stolen. They are your property until you are informed otherwise, but now you are also made aware that you are involved in a legal process.

On the list of serial numbers - they won't provide it to you. They will, however, at some point compel you to provide yours to them or other indenitying information. If you refuse to co-operate, it'll open a lot more of those "not fun" doors in the mean time until they determine if they are the stolen property or not. You'll never get the list, but if/when they take your tube you will be entitled to proof that it is stolen and why (ie a receipt, signed letter, etc).

If any of your tubes get seized (and can't get a refund through PP, Ebay, CC, etc) make sure to write it off on your taxes if you are able to; might as well get something back from Uncle Sam if they got something back out of you.

This helps explain it a bit more - Thank you. I also did not consider the tax piece, so hopefully that is able to assist someone involved in this.

Does anyone know if this was limited to arfcom? Also, if a confiscation happened, who should we contact to have them removed from housings?

Do we know the guys name if he was selling on any fb groups?

If he was selling on any Facebook groups he was using a different name. It doesn’t appear that he was active on Facebook at all.

Admittedly I rag on TNVC from time time but that is a solid move on their part so kudos deserved.

That’s a bad ass offer @Augee_TNVC. Hopefully no one has to take you up on that.

This right here is what sets you guys apart. Offering to help rather than using it as a marketing ploy on Instagram and a "rub your nose in it" kind of deal. Tnvc for life

This

No, used PP balance.

interesting story. Sucks for people that have purchased what turns out to be stolen goods. I'm always weary of that with used stuff, but now that I'm shopping for my first set of NV stuff it's more on the front burner. What can you do besides just buy new from a reputable place?

Find the manufacturer and send them a pic would be my guess

I've bought used night vision pretty regularly over the past few years.  However, I'm also very wary of anything that could possibly be questionable.  The simplest thing to do is just ask the seller where it came from & for the SN to call it in; if they are the original buyer try to include a copy of the receipt in the transaction.

I don't buy tubes without some kind of paper trail showing provenance.  If nothing is available I'll get the SN before committing and call it in and hope I get a friendly CS guy on the phone.  I prefer to buy commercially built units and tubes with spec sheets.  As I understand it .mil/.gov tubes do not come with spec sheets from the mfg so the presence of one is a good indicator.

Of course, someone could always sketchy tubes into a commercial housing but I've personally never come across one in the wild.

There are some great deals to be had out there but you really need to be careful.  If you aren't 100% comfortable with buying used get a new unit from JRH or TNV complete with a 10 yr warranty.

FWIW, though I've never bought a photonis tube I'd looked at them before and, prior to this popping up, I know I wouldn't have been quite so cautious about buying one of these tubes.  I had considered them pretty safe in regards to stolen .mi/.gov property up until now.

That isn't going to be a for sure thing, either. I know through conversations that a set of these tubes were called in and checked out A-OK with the tube manufacturer, but that does not jive with the DHS letter.

The only safe thing is going to be a receipt, but again, that can be faked or the reseller could be unknowingly selling stolen tubes as well. I know some resellers purchased tubes from Lamneth... I have to imagine they sold them. Look back at the horrible situation that fell upon Horta... I think that seller had a legit storefront going and was selling as a business, but was selling hot .mil gear.  Sometimes you just never know because of how oddly some of this gear passes through the various channels.

A couple of years ago, we were buying DRS E6000 Thermal cameras that were used in military drones and they were coming through the vendor legit, but that isn't something that would normally be available. Lamneth presented himself like the business he worked at and given his incredibly complex background within the industry, he came off as competent and legit. There's a certain degree of trust involved. How many people are going to buy a used car and expect to find it powered by a stolen engine?

You could trying buying from a larger business, but a lot of the NV companies are smaller just to keep overhead and margins at realistic levels. Adams Industries isn't very large. Ed Wilcox is small. Night Vision Inc is smaller. I'm not sure how large TNVC is, but they seem larger than some of the others, but it still feels like a small-to-medium business.

It might be time to just go back to flashlights. lol.

Regarding calling in serial numbers - I’ve read in the past that L3 and ITT typically do not speak or give up tube information to the average joe. Your experience says otherwise. Do they tell you who it was originally sold to and information relating to that?

Yes.  Particularly with ITT & Harris.  I've never asked L3 to check one for who they sold it to, but they were able to look up one of their tubes and tell me the FOM (which I used to deduce the SnR; guy said he had lost the spec sheet).  According to the CS guy I talked to he said digging up a replacement spec sheet would be an ordeal but he could look up the FOM pretty easily.

Like anything else it's up to getting the right guy on the phone who is willing to do it.  Be nice, polite, and cross your fingers.

Honestly this is all ridiculous anyways imo. Tubes will probably only be relavant for another 10 years or so till digital surpasses it. Its not like theres anything top secret about them or special. You can read how they are made and get them almost anywhere if you want. To me its like a guy selling old stolen army radios.

I don't think it matters how advanced the technology is. The government will go after you regardless of what you're selling if they think they have a case against you.

As for digital? 20 years or more is my guess. There's still a LOT of hurdles to that, and the technology is barely above early Gen2 performance levels and struggles to come up to even 30 year-old Gen3 standards. You don't even hear talk about stuff like the Rose criterion any more, and most tube manufacturers don't even know what that is now, but you can be sure that it's going to come back into relevance with Digital.

There are three competing technologies. EBAPS/EBCMOS, SWIR and Black Silicon. EBCMOS is the closest to being useful at the moment, and it's pretty hard to get hold of. And the development pace isn't even keeping up with Analog tubes - that is to say, analog tubes are improving at a faster rate than digital systems at the moment.

And then you got the whole SWAP problem to deal with as well.

My guess is that Analog tubes are going to stay around for another 30 to 50 years at least, and will probably be augmented with digital systems rather than being replaced.

David

VERY Interesting stuff!

So what are the chances of us getting to keep said tubes? Anyone?

Depends if they are stolen or not.

Hunter told me restitution is not guaranteed, but at some point we can write a letter asking the court for restitution, if we have to surrender the tubes.

A good lawyer could make an easy civil suit out of 100 plaintiffs.  Don't know whether you'll get any blood from the turnip, but the lawyer'd probably work on a contingency.

Crazy ass development.

I don't even recognize the guys' username, thankfully.

I take it he's already in custody now? - these have got to be some pretty serious charges he racked up.

Against who?

Against whom else? The seller.

That’s why I asked.

I seriously doubt he has the $$ to make it worthwhile.

Depending on the situation, something is better than nothing

I think I saw that lamneth has an airplane registered to him lol. I sold several pvs7s last year and don’t know which housing lamneths’s tube went into. The investigator told me not to try to track it down but it still sucks being involved and not knowing what’s going to happen.

Good information/advice being shared in this thread. Thanks everyone

He was booked in February and bond was only $5,000 (according to the internet). Charge was embezzlement

I saw that too lol. His name is on a ton of patents from when he worked for ITT. It looks like he played a big role in modern NV technology. It's a shame he did this and threw away his career.

In this situation, your local/county/state charge him for whatever basic crap the investigator wants, then the case is adopted federally - at which time you get hammered by the US Atty’s office. The low bond for the local agency’s charge doesn’t really mean much, since it’s basically just to get it on the books so to speak.

Given the info below your posts and his name being on patents, if he is convicted... it might be worth it (to a law-firm).

Can’t speak for the guy, but about 99.99% of the time you’re not going to divulge anything related to your investigation until it’s time to submit stuff for discovery. Short of him telling those of us unlucky enough to have hot tubes, and to surrender them (unless you want a visit from the agents from your nearest HSI field office), I doubt you’ll hear much. Sucks, but he has an investigation to carry out - a complicated one at that considering the scale/amount of time it was going on/etc.

Thanks for your insight. I’m still confused as to why this DHS is involved unless he was selling overseas. From the feedback and transactions I could find it seemed like all of the tubes were commercial tubes probably taken while working for ASU as a private employer. Of course there may be something else we do not know about.

I understand. There is just a lot of speculation and concern without much clarification - I was hoping just to see some minds put at ease. I very much understand not divulging anything related to the investigation.

I guess that I was hoping to get a list of serials so we could track them all down ourselves and that was just wishful thinking on my part, thinking we could all help out for the greater good, since we're such a tight-knit community.

The company these were stolen from services devices for a wide array of Govt entities that are not .mil.

Taken right from the "about us" in the website.
"These include numerous government and private agencies such as Civil Emergency Medical Services (EMS), Military Services; Federal, State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies, the U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and Department of Energy; Search and Rescue, Fugitive Apprehension, Airborne Surveillance, Airborne Security, and Fire Suppression Missions"

I am guessing some of these tubes are linked to the above entities, which is likely why DHS is involved? Otherwise, I would also be confused as to why the gov got involved in a civil theft for commercial devices. That being said, there has to absolutely be a chance that one or more of these devices were sold to a foreign national, either through the initial sale, or further downstream.

Hopefully as the case unfolds, more details are shared.