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Posted: 6/12/2002 7:38:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2002 7:39:41 PM EDT by USMC_LB]
I am wanting to get my first serious bolt action rifle.

What would you guys suggest ?

At first I was thinking of going the service rifle route with a Spingfield 1903... then I decided to maybe go more modern but I am not up on the "tactical" scene.

What are the better actions out there ?

Is McMillian still the leader is stocks ?

Who would you suggest ?

I was leaning toward the .300 WinMag at first but I also want a weapon that takes a military standard round. I have pretty much decided to go with .308..

I appreciate any information on this subject!

Thanks, USMC_LB
Link Posted: 6/12/2002 7:44:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2002 7:46:33 PM EDT by DaveTX]
Remington 700P (aka PSS) in 308. 26" free floating heavy bbl. Gun is heavy as hell, especially with scope and bipod. Excellent HS Precision stock.

If you want to go cheap, get a Savage 10FP Tactical. Really no less accurate, I have heard they don't like moly coated ammo..? Also 26" FF heavy bbl, button rifled though. The stock, however, is a cheap piece shit, you'd have to spend serious cash to upgrade to a McMillan. Trigger is decent but doesn't compare to the Remington. After upgrading the trigger n stock, you have spent more than the Remington anyways... (I own a .308 Rem 700P w/ Harris bipod and trigger adjusted to 2.5 lbs).

Some ppl will tell you of Remington quality control problems - all I can say is mine is great! Consistantly half MOA if not better, all with factory ammo. Never fired reloaded ammo, but I hear it helps alot since you can seat the bullet out much further (Remingtons have hugely long throats for legal protection - no overpressure).
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:32:15 AM EDT
I agree 100% with Dave and have the same rig. You cannot go wrong with the PSS for your first choice. Make sure you get a good mounting system and good glass.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:50:25 AM EDT
Rem 700PSS, 26" barell, HS precision stock in .308 has a pretty good trigger right out of the box.

Put some good glass ($400) quality rings ($150) and bases ($80) and yer at $1,300 already.

THEN you can really spend some money.

But the above setup will get you going pretty good.

Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:57:33 AM EDT
I'll also recommend the PSS. Here's bad picture of my PSS on the right. I got it with the the Remington TWS. It came with a Pelican hardcase, Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x Tactical Scope, Leupold base and rings, Harris bi-pod, and cleaning kit. It can shoot 1/2 MOA with Federal 168gr Match ammo when I'm doing my part.

Link Posted: 6/13/2002 8:02:08 AM EDT
What's your budget? I know someone selling a complete Winchester actioned custom rifle in 308 with an adjustable stock, match barrel, etc. I think its around $1000 with match comp peep sights. Let me know if the price range is ok and I'll get all of the details for you.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 8:07:38 AM EDT
An alternative to the PSS is the VS... except for one or two minor differences (I think the PSS has some sort of fore-end rail in the stock)
they're virtually identical.

The McMillian stocks are by far the best tactical stocks around. The A2 model is probably
the most popular. And you can order one in mixed
colors for a camo effect. Although, given the price and that the factory HS Precision stock mounted on the VS and PSS is in itself an excellent stock, I'd use the money saved for some quality optics instead.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 8:09:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 10:28:00 AM EDT
Remington 700 Police.
.308
Save $ on the scope/base/rings by getting less expensive stuff first. You'll get to shoot your rifle sooner.
Getting the rifle is the main step. The high-zoot optics can be saved for, unless you've got the cash now for it.
I'm still waiting to get the base/rings I want, so, I used Redfield.
The scope is a Leupold Tactical Mil-Dot 4.5-14x40 1" tube and the funky 6" sunshade.
The rifle shoots 1/2 MOA or better with the Federal Gold Medal Match 168's, even without the tweaking and extra high $ stuff.

Link Posted: 6/13/2002 10:53:58 AM EDT
Hey man,
Check out snipercountry.com. They've beated this topic to death there, and all the info you're looking for is archived. They helped me get started.
The ONLY difference between the PSS and the VS (at least in .308, there are more for teh .223) is the stock, and the fact that the bolt is jeweled on the VS. Many prefer the VS stock anyway over the PSS. For the budget minded, get a VS and put the extra $150 or so towards good glass.
You also might want to consider the new Winchester Stealth. I've heard it's a real tackdriver and is probably the best out of the box gun of it's type. As far as Remington's QC problems go, it doen't surprise me. I got my first PSS (.308) about 3 years ago, the dreaded detatchable mag version (fortunately I've had no problems with it) and topped it with one of the Tasco SS 10X42M scopes (once again, I got lucky and got one of the earlier ones, the ones I've seen lately are terrible). The latest PSS I got (.223 and has a different twist than the VS)shoots OK but the finish isn't nearly as good as my .308. I sent both up to Hart to to their accuracy package on 'em (lap bolt, lap barrel, skim-bed action, adjust trigger and touch up crown for $175). The .308 shoots like a house-a-fire and other than the bedding and trigger, it doesn't look like they had to do too much to it. The .223 took quite a bit more work but it's OK now.
I would stay with the .308, get a Winchester Stealth (once again do a search for it on the Snipercountry.com duty roster)or a VS or PSS. Put Badger rings and bases on it, and get a Leupold varix III 3.5-10 M3 LR. I can't stress enough, DON'T SKIMP ON OPTICS. If anything check out snipercountry.com. There's so much LR "tactical" type shooting info on there it's amazing. They've helped me and many others get set up and most of the guys there are great shooters and real deal BTDT's
Hope this helps and good luck.
Later,
R
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 10:56:08 AM EDT
PS... H-S also makes the "regular" VS stock as well as the PSS stock. Same quality, different design...
Later,
R
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 11:14:27 AM EDT
I'll second the motion that you visit snipercountry.com


Them guys a re ANAL about accuracy (which is a good thing)


They must have several thousands years combined experience over there.

Link Posted: 6/13/2002 11:32:33 AM EDT
I would agree with most here.

Remington PSS or Savage 10FP

I dunno why but Remington's LE site is down
www.remingtonLE.com
might try the main site for the 700 VS

www.savagearms.com
10FP is now listed under the "new" LE series 7 still under varmint rifles too

You could window shop at www.gunsamerica.com or www.gunbroker.com

Link Posted: 6/13/2002 12:46:46 PM EDT
I'm an advocate of the 1903A3. Get one, trick it out and you'll have a tack driver. A friend of mine has one and it's AMAZINGLY accurate. Piece of history also. Do I have one? No. Will I get one? Love to, but likely not. For what it costs to get a 1903A3 from CMP and trick it out I can buy a good current production '06, good scope, AND replace my .45. It's definitely a labor (and cost) of love. I looked into it and getting one and tricking it out would run about $1000-$1200, or more.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 12:56:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
What are the better actions out there ?

I was leaning toward the .300 WinMag at first but I also want a weapon that takes a military standard round. I have pretty much decided to go with .308..

Thanks, USMC_LB




A. Either 700 Rem - check out a "P" stock before you buy - you may not like it. If you are going to replace it - it will be a waste of money.

Winchester Stealth and FN Special Police are in the same league.


As far as wanting to stick with a mil standard round:

The military classifys the .308 as a "light" sniping caliber, .300 Win Mag as a "medium" sniping caliber and a .50 as a "heavy" sniping caliber.

Thus they are ALL mil standard.

Check out US Optics for glass.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 12:59:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2002 1:01:12 PM EDT by Watch-Six]
Get the setup that BusMaster007 has pictured. You will have to spend a great deal more money to get even a small improvement in performance. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 1:40:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2002 1:42:57 PM EDT by USMC_LB]
Man ! Thanks for all the info!!!

I have seen snipercountry.com before but was not shopping for a weapon at the time... thanks for refreshing my memory.

Is the Winchester Stealth based on the Mod. 70 action ?

On the ammo thing. I was thinking more on the line of NATO than mil-spec. Is the .300 WinMag a NATO round or just the .308 only ?

My friend has had a copy of the Sniper Handbook for years and years. I am going to get it tonight.

I will keep looking here for anymore suggestions from you guys !

Thanks USMC_LB

***PS: What are some good optics !?!?
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 2:42:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
***PS: What are some good optics !?!?



Can't go wrong with anything from Leupold. The Vari-XIII's and Mark-4's are nice, but can be
very expensive... with some models, more than the cost of the rifle.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with a Mil-Dot reticle (unless you have plans for becoming a bell-tower sniper). hebut I belive they stopped making them some years ago (at least for civilian sales).
Occasionally you might come across one at a gun show or online auction, but they fetch top dollar.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 2:47:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:

Is the Winchester Stealth based on the Mod. 70 action ?



yep, www.winchester-guns.com
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 2:51:11 PM EDT
LB
Yes the stealth is based on the tried and true Winchester 70 action. It's the "updated" version of their discontinued 70 HBV rifle (remember their varmint gun with the HEAVY stainless barrel on the blued action?). It has a heavier barrel than a PSS, and some (former 8541's etc.) of the guys on snipercountry.com like it better.
As far as the .300 being NATO, I don't know. I know we use it.
I don't know how much "highpower" rifle shooting you've done, or what you plan to do with the rifle, but .308 realistically will do just about anything you need. It's also a heck of a lot cheaper to shoot (not to mention less painful) than the .300. Which "Sniper Handbook" is it? I would recommend FM 23-10.
For Optics...figure out how much you have budgeted and then try to spend a little more. You'll be glad you did. I'd recommend the Leupold (can't go wrong with Loopie)variX III 3.5-10 LR M3 mil-dot scope. The M3 is designed with "cams" for specific loads, so once zero'd, will adjust from 100-1000 yards in one complete turn of the dial. That set-up is best for class "F" type comps where you might have multiple targets at varied (and unknown, hence the mil-dots) ranges anywhere from 100-800+ yards. With the M3 you don't have to worry about "counting clicks". If you plan on just punching paper at know distances fo with the same but with the M1 dials. They are raised target style and are best for fine paper punching.
I wouldn't bother with the Tasco super sniper series anymore. The new ones suck, not to mention Tasco went belly up. If you got the dough, go for a Leupold Mk4, or better yet a US Optics ST-10. From everything I've heard the USO is about the same money as the Mk4 and better.
Once again, I refer you to the reviews section of snipercountry. They review all the "big" scopes.
Hope this helps,
R
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 3:24:14 PM EDT
If money was not an issue, I'd go with a Sako action with a Lija barrel. The stock is up to you.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 4:17:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
For Optics...figure out how much you have budgeted and then try to spend a little more. You'll be glad you did.
R



Someone posted this link for US Optics not too long ago. Looks like out-f**king-standing hardware... just don't know
if it would be worth skipping a mortgage payment or two to buy one.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 4:21:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
I will keep looking here for anymore suggestions from you guys !



Think BIG!!!...
http://www.cheyennetactical.com/images/military-intervention.jpg
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 5:40:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JasonF:

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
***PS: What are some good optics !?!?



Can't go wrong with anything from Leupold. The Vari-XIII's and Mark-4's are nice, but can be
very expensive... with some models, more than the cost of the rifle.
.



I would look into teh Vari-X II's. Leupold quality, with a reasonable price tag. (compared to the III's and the Mark 4's)



I've got a II, and it works nice.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 6:55:02 PM EDT
I have my friend's book now. I couldnt remember the name of it earlier when I said it was a Snipers Handbook...

It is the book titled The Ultimate Sniper. I am going to curl up with it tonight after I finish reading some stuff over at sniperountry.com

I am really looking for a no-frills sniper weapon. I want to get the best optics I can afford. I do not want to skimp at all in that catagory...

I want nothing fancy looking. I guess the one word to desribe my dream rifle is "utility"

No bells and whistles, just superior optics, a hardy action, and a comfortable stock.

Keep the info coming in ! I am absorbing it as fast as it comes.

Thanks USMC_LB
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:05:30 PM EDT
USMC_LB
E-mail me.
I have a few Practical Rifles,
scopes and stocks.

Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:16:25 PM EDT
LB,
What do you want to do with the rifle? Paper, "F" class, known/unknown distance? Those will all affect what you should choose optically. Keep in mind, if you ever want to take a tactical rifle class (Storm Mountain, Blackwater etc...) they all (last time I checked) required a mil-dot reticle. If you plan on going to any of these classes or competitions, you'll need heavy-duty stuff. Don't worry about fancy lookin', none of the rifles mentioned are and teh USO and Loopie LR M3's and the Mk4's are about as utility as you can get. No Nightforce 56mm objectives and lit reticles here ;). If you want a comfy stock, the VS might actually be the way to go. The PSS stock is great for prone and bench (after all most tactical police shots are from the prone, so the design makes sense), but isn't as versatile as the VS stock for other postitions, let alone carrying. What really matters most, is what you plan on doing with the gun, then let that determine what you need. BTW, there's nothing wrong with wanting a tactical rifle for the "cool factor". I mean really, I highly doubt that everone with a PSS etc. is a sniper. I know I ain't ;).
Later,
R
PS. When you check out snipercountry.com, just a tip, be sure to read all the archives etc. (a perfect rainy weekend "project"..they're looong but lots of info) before posting a quesiton on the Duty Roster

BTW JasonF, you might want to read the Duty Roster from the past week or so as well, Dean Michaelis (the guy who's name is in your rifle pic) has been making some, shall we say, "interesting" claims of late there, really stirring the pot. Interesting to say the least.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:29:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
Keep the info coming in ! I am absorbing it as fast as it comes.

Thanks USMC_LB



Keep in mind that the firearm and the person behind the firearm are two totally seperate things. With that in consideration (assuming both are at their max capabilities), ammunition
is an equally important factor. Consistancy is very much as important as the weapon and person.
You have too have all three. Reloading your own
stuff to that degree is another skill.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:34:22 PM EDT
Currently I have a 700VS in .308. I topped it with Badger Ordnance rings and base. Strapped to it is a Leupold Vari XIII 4.5-14 LRT. I love the rifle. Have no complaints what so ever. I just painted it the other day with boflage (spelling). I have a 700 Sendero in 300 win mag on layaway now. Only difference between it and the 700vs is the Sendero has the long action and the VS has the short. I think you would be more than happy with it.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 7:37:20 PM EDT
JasonF,
Good point about the ammo. It's the whole "you are what you eat" thing. You put cheap ammo in teh gun, you'll get "cheap" groups. If you don't reload, save all your brass, because someday you probably will. When you do start reloading, you'll really get consistancy and accuracy. If you don't reload, I HIGHLY recommend the Black Hills stuff (check Georgia Precision...one of the guys in the industry forums...great prices and even better service)especially the 175 grain .308 loads. Avoid moly in a "tactical" gun, it wreaks havoc with your cold bore shot (CBS)and that is baaad juju.
Later,
R
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 8:37:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
BTW JasonF, you might want to read the Duty Roster from the past week or so as well, Dean Michaelis



LOL! You had me going end-over-end trying to find the "Duty Roster" page on this site until I realized you were refering to the snipercountry website. I haven't been there in quite awhile (hard finding time enough to browse and post to the 2-3 web forums I regulary read). I didn't read all of it but I take it this Dean guy is someone who belongs on the Secret Service watch list?
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 8:40:52 PM EDT
There might be better pure "tactical" bolt actions out there, but my 1944 03A3 4 groove is pristine and VERY sweet to shoot.

Although I have not had it as long so I cannot say that it is quite as nice a shooter, my Eddystone 1917 is pretty darn nice as well.

Both have very shiny and pristine bores (the 1917 was arsenal re-barreled during WWII) and the bolt face of the 03 looks like it could not have been shot 50 times.

I might some day add a nice 700 or something more modern, but there is something special about shooting a nearly 60 year old rifle that may well have been carried by one of our forefathers in defense of this nation and freedom worldwide.

You would also be amazed at how well they shoot too(can't say the same for my Garand yet!).

Ray
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 9:02:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC_LB:
I am wanting to get my first serious bolt action rifle.

What would you guys suggest ?

At first I was thinking of going the service rifle route with a Spingfield 1903... then I decided to maybe go more modern but I am not up on the "tactical" scene.

What are the better actions out there ?

Is McMillian still the leader is stocks ?

Who would you suggest ?

I was leaning toward the .300 WinMag at first but I also want a weapon that takes a military standard round. I have pretty much decided to go with .308..

I appreciate any information on this subject!

Thanks, USMC_LB



Depends on what you want your Rifle to do, and how much money are you willing to spend ?
If you want something NEW..you can spend as little as about $400 for a Savage Rifle to spending thousands of dollars on a Custom Rifle.

Hall and Stolle make great Actions..very stiff.
Shilen, Lija, Krieger make great barrels.
Leupold makes really good scopes.


Link Posted: 6/13/2002 9:18:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Avoid moly in a "tactical" gun, it wreaks havoc with your cold bore shot (CBS)and that is baaad juju.



Really???? Never knew that. That is very good to know... I learn something new every day.

Can anyone else confirm or explain to me why this is? I sometimes shoot moly through my PSS...
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 9:42:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JasonF:



What the heck is that ??

Inquiring minds want to know!!
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 9:48:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
PS... H-S also makes the "regular" VS stock as well as the PSS stock. Same quality, different design...
Later,
R



IMHO these guys make the best stocks

www.hsprecision.com

These are used on the PSS,VS,Sendero and on
the discontinued Laredo & I think the Stealth
I think weatherby uses HS stocks too.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 9:53:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaveTX:

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Avoid moly in a "tactical" gun, it wreaks havoc with your cold bore shot (CBS)and that is baaad juju.



Really???? Never knew that. That is very good to know... I learn something new every day.

Can anyone else confirm or explain to me why this is? I sometimes shoot moly through my PSS...



Moly also has a tendency to "laminate" copper and other fouling into the bore. You will frequently hear people testifying to how easy it is to clean their rifles because they shoot moly-coated bullets - "..two three patches thru the bore and after that they come out prefectly clean..." sure they come out clean - the fouling is encased in the moly that you can't get out of your barrel! Spotting this with the naked eye is hard, borescope is still tricky, but using airgaging will indicate real quick that your barrel doesn;t have the same volume anymore. So I wouldn't say that it's solely a cold bore shoot problem, I'd just avoid moly coated bullets all together.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:48:06 AM EDT
As far as the "mystery tan rifle", it's a .408 Cheytac. Serious stuff. I think some militaries use it. Dean is former SF/SOTIC instructor (I believe)and a true BTDT. Just check out the Duty Roster (on snipercountry...LOL), and read the last two weeks shitstorm...uh,I mean, posts. Dean was making some serious claims (6"-8" groups at 1k yds. with a Savage 110), and was called on it.

Go to SC's search engine, and do a search under moly. There's also a lot of articles etc there on it. I don't use moly but apparently, if your shooting high volumes of ammo (highpower competition)where you get sighters and fouling shots it's OK (Even though John Holliger told me not to waste my time with it). But if your CBS needs to be exactly where your aiming, I'd stay away from it. Also, moly is a pain in the ass to get out (from all I've heard), it's also one of those things where it's all or nothing. You either use it or not, I don't think you'll see any benefit if you switch back and forth.

Basically, when it comes to bolt guns, I always consult first with the guys on SC. All those guys (Mike Miller, of Tactical Intervention Specialists; Rick Bowcher, of SOTIC; "Pablito" BTDT; and many others). Very much like how I'd always consult here first before making any AR decisions.

R
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