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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 10/28/2013 1:17:17 AM EST
I am confused. I've been wanting to buy NVG since I was 12 (now 21), price always intimidated me, but now I can actually afford it without looking back.
Before you start answering please read everything, don't assume I don't know what I want, and go explaining what an electron is, I majored in biology and took physics chemistry etc. I understand some of my statements may cause frustration, I am not "that" type of customer, but lets be realistic, I am not grocery shopping, and this is going to be my first experience with NVD and I want it to be pleasant without annoying returns.

Discretion: I used a lot of "highlights" bold font, different font sizes, mods please do not alter anything I did it not because of rage, but to highlight important points in text, i know some forums have rules on how many smiles I can use, I hope this isn't kindergarten like that.
I also copied this thread from INDUSTRIAL section because I posted there by mistake, I want civilian input on this from peoples experiences before I call them up about details

>Looked through videos, cool, Gen 3 it is, oh wait, Gen 3+?
>Amazon > Optics > night vision > Gen 3+ white phosphor
>hell yeah buying, only let me just read the info one more time to make sure I will get what I pay $3000+ for
>read specs, read other nvg specs, all the same, resolution 54lp/mm like gen 2+/Gen 3
>wtf
>youtube people reputable sellers talk, they convince me to buy from reputable sellers not amazon/ebay - okay convinced me
>started researching reading articles pdf's by TNVC educated myself about the kinds of tubes that are currently used



Now, first thing, from what I understood, according to TNVC info, ITT Pinnacle tubes have thinner film, allow more light in.
OMNI VIII, on the other hand, have thick film, with some holes as was mentioned, but the lower amount of light received by photo-cathode is compensated with over-saturation done by micro-channel plate, making some darker parts of image missing

I use my own judgement and knowledge of optics and what I learned and researched, this is an OVER-EXAGGERATED picture of how I believe two tubes compare to each other, of course its not that bad and most people probably wont notice the difference,
but there MUST be this type of artifact


http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6226/9ol1.jpg

+So, with ITT we should get a higher resolution image, slightly dimmer, +doesn't like recoil shock This is the one I want to buy, don't care about weapon mount much, care about resolution
+With OMNI VIII we get brighter image (pointless), and less resolution, +handles recoil better


?THIS IS HOW I UNDERSTAND THE TUBES, PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, I SIMPLY WANT THE BEST, I may have misunderstood some facts about film of OMNI VIII?


First question: Why OMNI VIII costs more than ITT Pinnacle? I am referring to items listed on TNVC as I will be buying from there. I am talking about TNV/PVS-14 series.

Second question: I heard that ITT Pinacle tubes typically have lesser tube artifacts, such as dark spots, is that statistically true?

Third question: When YOU will be ordering the tubes from ITT for my built, you have to fill out a sheet of what kind of tube you want to get, and the ITT has to comply with the minimal specs for that devise, the actual specs might be higher, I care most about resolution, since for PVS14 the resolution range from what I read is ~64-72lp/mm, is it possible to request at least 68-69 resolution or is it going to be the category of ITT Exelis PVS-14 tube built completely by ITT Exelis? and consequently be hand picked/more expensive?


Now, last bit, White Phosphor, or Green Phosphor.

So the drill is the following: Light ? Photocathode ? Electrons ? Microchannel plate ? Phosphor
Basically from what I understand color of phosphor has absolutely nothing to do with the tube itself, it is simply electron to photon converter.


Now, a lot of people who really like traditional green phosphor night vision will argue that human eye is THE MOST sensitive to green light, (that is true) and that humans will see much more with Green phosphor tubes than White phosphor tubes, and that's where I cringe and rage. Well first of all, white is not a color, its a combination of 3 primary colors, which are GREEN BLUE and RED. Green Phosphor only activates 1/3 of your rods, White phosphor night vision activates at least 2/3 of your rods because besides activating Green-sensitive rods it also activates Blue-sensitive rods, and maybe a very few number of red, so actually you DO see more details with white phosphor tubes, otherwise the US army would not be considering switching over (from what I read during my research.)

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2117/5x0y.jpg

Of Course the cat white phosphor is exaggerated, you probably wont see color differences, it will only be a CYAN monotone image, but non the less it will activate more rods in your eye than green by itself.
Also provided real world example done by some guy on some forum long time ago, image seems to be easier on eyes, but nothing an Amber filter cant fix with green phosphor
it is not my driving decision, but I would strongly prefer white phosphor as long as it is not overpriced IT'S JUST CONVERTING ELECTRONS TO PHOTONS SHOULDN'T BE A BIG DEAL AND EXTRA 2K or whatever


Now that that's clear and out of the way.

Questions
Does ITT produce Gen 3 ITT Pinnacle White Phosphor tubes equal to "OMNI VIII grade?" Because for now there is ONLY ONE KNV-PVS14-008 that's L3 not sure which omni that produces white phosphor tubes
Also, it is extremely hard to distinguish the differences between GEN 3 and GEN 3+ to me, what are the differences in resolutions? "autogated" alone cannot bump it up to + i doubt it
There is a guy on youtube that built his own PVS-14 he got the tube from air-force where he worked, got it for free from buddies, the resolution of his tube is AMAZING, nothing of what I have seen in others videos, and he referred to it as "Gen 3+"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qEqpP-Z4Qw

The aforementioned tubes
http://tnvc.com/shop/tnvpvs-14-l3-gen3-omni-viii/
and
http://tnvc.com/shop/tnvpvs-14-itt-gen3-pinnacle/
and
http://tnvc.com/shop/pvs-14-night-enforcer-gen3-pinnacle-night-vision-monocular/


Are they Gen 3+? Is it guaranteed that the image quality will be just like on the video? I know they say "it looks better in real than on camera," but I love the quality from his video, and I can only imagine how it looks in real, I want similar quality.


P.S. God damn I guess I am "that" type of customer, oh well, I spent two hours writing all this please answer all my questions, once all is clear to me I will proceed with the purchase ASAP
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 1:53:32 AM EST

Q1 answer: Omni VIII costs more because it's Milspec. Milspec has more tests and paperwork and record keeping than civlian tubes ( or civilian tubes are failed Milspec tubes ) so it costs more. Think "Administrative cost"

Q2 anwser: Not that I am aware of. I would expect Omni VIII tubes to have less blemishes, but I wouldn't worry about that. A tube either has blemishes or it doesn't. If you want a clean tube. go "Hand Select" and make it your criteria.

Q3. 64~72 lp/mm is the range of the test. The next level up starts at 72 lp/mm. I wouldn't worry about resolution without understanding it. More important are system resolution and illumination levels you plan on using it under. That's a lot more complicated. 64 lp/mm BTW is at 3% contrast... That is, if there's a fully dark "pixel" next to a fully bright "pixel" then the difference in intensity between them is just 3%... Not much. If resolution is important, work off around 32 lp/mm.

Comment 1.
Rods are monochromatic. They register intensity, not colour. They are more sensitive to green. Wasting energy in other parts of the spectrum does no active more rods. It reduces the sensitivity of the exposed rods to the overall illumination.

Also, under extremely low light levels, you probably won't even notice that the image is green.

Q4 - I don't know. I've never seen the Omni Milspec for white phosphor. Only green phosphor.And I don't know if ITT make white phosphor.

Comment 2. For a given tube configuration, white phosphor loses around 3 points of S/N over Green phosphor. That equates to lower resolution.

Q5. Gen3+ is thin-film autogated or Filmless. It's not an official designation. It's not a huge improvement.

Q6. Some tubes are 72 lp/mm instead of 64 lp/mm, but honestly you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. I have checked 72 lp/mm and 64 lp/mm tubes side by side, and can confirm there's no visible difference. There are other factors, such as illumination, that come into the equation too, as well as PC response and S/N and EBI, but that is probably complicating an over-simple answer.

Comment - There are a lot of "which tube is best" asked around here - and honestly, it's not that simple. S/N is probably the best single comparison between tubes. I'd take a high S/N over resolution any day. 57 lp/m at 36 S/N? I could live with that.

Anyway, S/N 21 and up - Good.
26 and up - Great
29 and up - Exceptional.

But the truth is that you'd be hard pressed to tell one PVS-14 from another; since they are all Omni IV and higher. A new tube, clean and high S/N are all prioritities IMO.

And TNVC are good, honest people to buy from. Ask technical questions here, but talk to them about options.

Thin film vs standard film vs filmless? Well, there are some reasons for choosing one over another, but unless you're engineering for purpose, they're kind of like general grades of steel. There's no such thing as one always being better than another. S/N is your guide. A mx10160 from Omni IV from 15 years ago with a S/N of 30 will nearly always beat a modern "Gen3+" with S/N of 26. Some people on this forum have older tubes that are good like that too...

Hope this helps :) Reading the Milspec provides a lot of good information too. But it will take time to learn the subtle nuances of tubes. In the mean time, S/N is king :)

Regards
David.

Link Posted: 10/28/2013 4:30:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2013 4:32:25 AM EST by Heineken]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:


Comment 2. For a given tube configuration, white phosphor loses around 3 points of S/N over Green phosphor. That equates to lower resolution.

+1 If you want the best resolution, stay away from white phosphor


Q6. Some tubes are 72 lp/mm instead of 64 lp/mm, but honestly you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. I have checked 72 lp/mm and 64 lp/mm tubes side by side, and can confirm there's no visible difference. There are other factors, such as illumination, that come into the equation too, as well as PC response and S/N and EBI, but that is probably complicating an over-simple answer.

+1 dont get to held up on specs, doubt you could tell the difference

Comment - There are a lot of "which tube is best" asked around here - and honestly, it's not that simple. S/N is probably the best single comparison between tubes. I'd take a high S/N over resolution any day. 57 lp/m at 36 S/N? I could live with that.

+1

Anyway, S/N 21 and up - Good.
26 and up - Great
29 and up - Exceptional.

But the truth is that you'd be hard pressed to tell one PVS-14 from another; since they are all Omni IV and higher. A new tube, clean and high S/N are all prioritities IMO.

And TNVC are good, honest people to buy from. Ask technical questions here, but talk to them about options.

+1

View Quote


+1 for everything cj7 said, also, I can not keep myself from saying this (and I am sorry I might be old a little fashioned) but no reason to take the Lords name in vain...im just sayin' it might offend some people, so why do it right?
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 9:56:12 AM EST
cj7hawk

Q1. Understood
Q2. Hand picked option makes it sound as if everything else they sell is tubes that didnt pass the inspection or are defected
Q3. I understand what resolution is, resolving power, has to do with, if i remember the definition correctly "how close two lines can be to each other until your eye stops resolving them as two separate lines and make them appear as one line," basically image detail, I saw some comparisons between L3 and ITT pinnacle, pinnacle does have higher resolutoion, dont know why on both units they show the same range 64-72lp/mm, the former is clearly lower.

Comment 1. Yes rods are monochromatic, yes they register intensity, but they are wavelength specific, there are 3 types of rods, each responding to adequate wavelength, RGB. Cyan color is mixture of green and blue, thus activating 2 monochromatic rod types, if you put a green filter on white phosphor tube you should see what you would see with a regular green phosphor tube. But I don't care about it much anyway its not worth spending extra thousand, especially on OMNI in my eyes, ill go with green its nice too.

Q4 then it must be civilian untested crap, ill hold off from that for now.

Comment 2, in that case its a definite nono

Q6 it may or may not be visible to an eye, but I plan on mounting it to my phones camera and also my dslr camera, so the higher resolution the better, S/N is also very important, video I posted is almost perfect, but i suspect it might be filmless, i am waiting for the guys response.

"
Anyway, S/N 21 and up - Good.
26 and up - Great
29 and up - Exceptional."
thank you for that I will definitely be keeping my eye out for this now, I didnt know S/N was so significant in these things


Link Posted: 10/28/2013 10:42:13 AM EST
Do yourself a favor and just call the guys at TNVC. In the two hours you spent typing and researching and retyping, Vic and the crew could have already answered all of this.

It's great that you're not willing to sacrifice quality for hype. But now you should 'kick the tires' with the experts that sell the stuff they use and stand behind what they sell.

Hurry up and buy before your wacked out Governor and prominent mayors tell you it's too dangerous for you to own NVG.
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 3:27:51 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpeedQuest:
Do yourself a favor and just call the guys at TNVC. In the two hours you spent typing and researching and retyping, Vic and the crew could have already answered all of this.

It's great that you're not willing to sacrifice quality for hype. But now you should 'kick the tires' with the experts that sell the stuff they use and stand behind what they sell.

Hurry up and buy before your wacked out Governor and prominent mayors tell you it's too dangerous for you to own NVG.
View Quote


+1

I wont ever forget the first time I called TNVC, and they were willing to talk to me and answer all my questions. those guys love NV and love to educate.
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 7:01:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KRANE:
cj7hawk

Q1. Understood
Q2. Hand picked option makes it sound as if everything else they sell is tubes that didnt pass the inspection or are defected

Not at all - It's just that what you get is going to be somewhere between GOOD and EXCEPTIONAL. Hand select bypasses chance in that process is all. But from someone like TNVC, you'll always get at least good, and it's not uncommon for most people to get "great".

Q3. I understand what resolution is, resolving power, has to do with, if i remember the definition correctly "how close two lines can be to each other until your eye stops resolving them as two separate lines and make them appear as one line," basically image detail, I saw some comparisons between L3 and ITT pinnacle, pinnacle does have higher resolutoion, dont know why on both units they show the same range 64-72lp/mm, the former is clearly lower.

You really do have to see it with your own eyes to understand, you can't see it in photo's or video. Unless we're talking seriously magnified images taken specifically to show the resolution, not the image. Keep in mind the term isn't "resolution" but "limiting resolution" - it means something different to what you seem to be thinking. Limiting resolution is like taking two pixels on a computer screen and bluring them together so that you can just make out that they were once different colours.

Comment 1. Yes rods are monochromatic, yes they register intensity, but they are wavelength specific, there are 3 types of rods, each responding to adequate wavelength, RGB. Cyan color is mixture of green and blue, thus activating 2 monochromatic rod types, if you put a green filter on white phosphor tube you should see what you would see with a regular green phosphor tube. But I don't care about it much anyway its not worth spending extra thousand, especially on OMNI in my eyes, ill go with green its nice too.

You might be confusing rods and cones: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_vision - Scotopic vision is far more important to NV use than many realize.

Q4 then it must be civilian untested crap, ill hold off from that for now.

I probably wouldn't go as far to say that - LoL! Civvy stuff is still pretty good.

Comment 2, in that case its a definite nono

Q6 it may or may not be visible to an eye, but I plan on mounting it to my phones camera and also my dslr camera, so the higher resolution the better, S/N is also very important, video I posted is almost perfect, but i suspect it might be filmless, i am waiting for the guys response.

Video clips nearly always fail to capture the real performance of an image intensifier. Trust me on that. I've been trying to achieve that for years! Anyway, for video purposes, screen brightness and MTF are very important.

"
Anyway, S/N 21 and up - Good.
26 and up - Great
29 and up - Exceptional."
thank you for that I will definitely be keeping my eye out for this now, I didnt know S/N was so significant in these things


View Quote

Hi - I've answered some questions in-band with your response - my comments in red.

And +1 - talk to TNVC. They really do know their stuff.

David
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 8:11:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2013 8:41:11 PM EST by cm]
a few questions and comments to you....

did you read the night vision generation comparison guide at the top of the forum?
you have real life images taken thru different scopes you can compare, as opposed to your simulated images.

did you read the pvs-14 buyers guide?

that talks about various things to consider with scopes.


READ THIS THREAD and find out why you shouldn't believe every image a company uses to sell their products....

and thank cj7hawk and dino1130 for their time and analysis in putting it together

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/323298_Night_Vision_Hall_Of_Shame___.html



NOW:

for answers and opinions about what scope people would reccomend for YOUR INTENDED PURPOSE:

is this going to be just hand held, or weapon mounted?

what purpose are you using this for? hunting, astronomy, security, shtf?

under what conditions are you using this in? in open rural areas away from city and reflected sky lights, in heavily forested areas with no lights, in the city, in suburbs?

How much money do you want to spend?


You're questions tended to pertain to technical specs, however, the problem is, the performance and specs of different tubes make specific tubes more suited to one purpose, than another.

Also, as has been pointed out, some spec differences are not significantly noticable, to the human eye (i.e. resolution, close s/n numbers).

Things that may matter more to your use may be things like halo, thin film or filmless, or ebi.

so, before you go all crazy over numbers, give us some idea what you intend to use it for, and the performance you think you are expecting, and perhaps people here can give you a reasonable range of options.



Also, if it is shtf that got you interested in night vision, and some how you found this forum, and board, there have been tons of those kinds of threads - summary: yes, you should have it if shtf (not necessarily teotwawki, could be like after a hurricane), and yes, it is like you have super powers if you have gen 3 night vision and can see in darkness, whereas any interloper would be stumbling around.

do this search

http://www.bing.com/search?q=night+vision+shtf+site%3Aar15.com&go=Submit+Query&qs=ds&form=QBRE
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 11:23:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2013 11:32:38 PM EST by KRANE]
cj7hawk
omggg what a shame i did mean rods lmao, god I feel embarrassed, but pretty much what I said only replace cones with rods, I always confuse them god damn it

CM
did you read the night vision generation comparison guide at the top of the forum?
View Quote

Yes
did you read the pvs-14 buyers guide?
View Quote

Yes
READ THIS THREAD and find out why you shouldn't believe every image a company uses to sell their products....
View Quote

ROLFLMFAO I am aware of fake pictures and the first ones are mad funny but the funniest of them all is this one, I cant believe how fucking stupid you have to be to do this, I actually saw some people on youtube trying to zoom in inside the image intensifier ahahahhahh..
http://www.atncorp.com/night_vision_images/products/1116/images/big/04.jpg


s this going to be just hand held, or weapon mounted?
hand held, head mounted, I hope pvs-7 headmount works with this, im not going to walk round like an idiot with a helmet on, not that I have anything against it, its just for my purposes I do not need a helmet, also cellphone camera mount as well as DSLR camera adapter

what purpose are you using this for? hunting, astronomy, security, shtf?
pictures, astronomy, shtf hahahah sure why not, security not really, I live in nyc not out in the country

under what conditions are you using this in? in open rural areas away from city and reflected sky lights, in heavily forested areas with no lights, in the city, in suburbs?
camping, anything around cities, pitch black beach with very well lit boardwalk, maybe staring into the ocean looking at ships airplanes etc, now hurricanes are a trend so id use it instead of flashlight, certainly more efficient, very wide range of uses, I want the best item

How much money do you want to spend?
$3000-3500 max, strongly preferring the middle spot, nothing higher than that, I'm also shopping for wrist watches, my pvs 14 will actually be more expensive lol
View Quote


i want thin filmed, i dont want to worry that if i drop it it will break with filmless, and the idea of full film bothers me because obviously there is a loss in performance even though some may not notice it, I know ill have nothing to compare it to but it will still bother be, im kind of anal and a detail freak, for me clarity of the image and being able to see single branches on trees instead of a shade of branches is kind of important, at least to the best ability I know it wont be possible to the perfection I make it sound to desire.

Link Posted: 10/28/2013 11:32:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2013 11:39:05 PM EST by JohnnyC]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KRANE:
cj7hawk
omggg what a shame i did mean rods lmao, god I feel embarrassed, but pretty much what I said only replace cones with rods, I always confuse them god damn it

CM

Yes

Yes

ROLFLMFAO I am aware of fake pictures and the first ones are mad funny but the funniest of them all is this one, I cant believe how fucking stupid you have to be to do this, I actually saw some people on youtube trying to zoom in inside the image intensifier ahahahhahh..
http://www.atncorp.com/night_vision_images/products/1116/images/big/04.jpg

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KRANE:
cj7hawk
omggg what a shame i did mean rods lmao, god I feel embarrassed, but pretty much what I said only replace cones with rods, I always confuse them god damn it

CM
did you read the night vision generation comparison guide at the top of the forum?

Yes
did you read the pvs-14 buyers guide?

Yes
READ THIS THREAD and find out why you shouldn't believe every image a company uses to sell their products....

ROLFLMFAO I am aware of fake pictures and the first ones are mad funny but the funniest of them all is this one, I cant believe how fucking stupid you have to be to do this, I actually saw some people on youtube trying to zoom in inside the image intensifier ahahahhahh..
http://www.atncorp.com/night_vision_images/products/1116/images/big/04.jpg


s this going to be just hand held, or weapon mounted?
hand held, head mounted, I hope pvs-7 headmount works with this, im not going to walk round like an idiot with a helmet on, not that I have anything against it, its just for my purposes I do not need a helmet, also cellphone camera mount as well as DSLR camera adapter

what purpose are you using this for? hunting, astronomy, security, shtf?
pictures, astronomy, shtf hahahah sure why not, security not really, I live in nyc not out in the country

under what conditions are you using this in? in open rural areas away from city and reflected sky lights, in heavily forested areas with no lights, in the city, in suburbs?
camping, anything around cities, pitch black beach with very well lit boardwalk, maybe staring into the ocean looking at ships airplanes etc, now hurricanes are a trend so id use it instead of flashlight, certainly more efficient, very wide range of uses, I want the best item

How much money do you want to spend?
$3000-3500 max, strongly preferring the middle spot, nothing higher than that, I'm also shopping for wrist watches, my pvs 14 will actually be more expensive lol




You understand that a clip-on is supposed to go in front of the day optic. I can't believe how fucking stupid people are to think they're experts in night vision after a couple hours of research. Since you didn't actually read and understand the context of what was going on in cj's post, you don't know that you just made yourself look like an idiot. If you actually knew what you thought you were talking about, you would have noticed that the context of his post clearly indicates that the picture that he hotlinked from ATN's website had change, and that the text was describing a through the tube image that was there prior. Instead, because you don't know what you don't know, you just thought that you'd be clever and try to look smart in front of people who actually know what they're talking about. The fact that you tried calling people "fucking stupid" when you clearly had absolutely no idea what you were talking about makes it even worse.

Reading through this thread you really don't have half a clue about what you think you do. Take everyone's advice and call TNVC. cj7hawk has been very nice and patient in trying to educate you. Since you don't understand exactly what you need or why you need it, don't go chasing around some über tube that you're going to waste the capability and waste your money. Yes, you are "that" customer.
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 11:37:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

Reading through this thread you really don't have half a clue about what you think you do. Take everyone's advice and call TNVC. cj7hawk has been very nice and patient in trying to educate you. Since you don't understand exactly what you need or why you need it, don't go chasing around some über tube that you're going to waste the capability. More money than sense comes to mind.
View Quote


I dont have a clue what im talking about, okay professor, I will call TNVC this week, I wanted to see what I am missing and what peoples advice is other than to call TNVC, I dont need to be educated I need to be pointed in the right direction, not mentioning every single specification of a tube doesnt make me clueless, I work a lot with microscopes so I have idea about optics probably more than you, my knowledge is limited about tubes tho, and I thought I was clear I want the quality to be DSLR camera acceptable and very sensitive to light, not too sensitive so you go recommending filmless though
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 11:39:28 PM EST
Hi Krane,

The cones are also far more sensitive to green, so by concentrating your light there, you'll see more ( and gain best use of your photopic vision as well - so will see more detail )

Anyway,


That's a clip-on or Boresighted scope. It's legit. It won't work very well without the dayscope magnifying it.

For general purposes? Consider a Night Enforcer. Specs are great, image is crisp and warranty is 5 years.

Otherwise pretty much any PVS-14 will do what you want. They come with a rather crappy headmount too, so you'll discover why helmets are recommended. A PVS-7B mount will work with them, but a PVS-7A mount will not.

For photo's ? Just look for blemish free and as bright an image as you can get. I'd recommend the Pinnacle over L3 for those purposes. The extra light will help the camera focus and adjust.

Regards
David






Link Posted: 10/28/2013 11:40:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2013 11:45:45 PM EST by JohnnyC]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KRANE:


I dont have a clue what im talking about, okay professor, I will call TNVC this week, I wanted to see what I am missing and what peoples advice is other than to call TNVC, I dont need to be educated I need to be pointed in the right direction, not mentioning every single specification of a tube doesnt make me clueless, I work a lot with microscopes so I have idea about optics probably more than you, my knowledge is limited about tubes tho, and I thought I was clear I want the quality to be DSLR camera acceptable and very sensitive to light, not too sensitive so you go recommending filmless though
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Originally Posted By KRANE:

Reading through this thread you really don't have half a clue about what you think you do. Take everyone's advice and call TNVC. cj7hawk has been very nice and patient in trying to educate you. Since you don't understand exactly what you need or why you need it, don't go chasing around some über tube that you're going to waste the capability. More money than sense comes to mind.


I dont have a clue what im talking about, okay professor, I will call TNVC this week, I wanted to see what I am missing and what peoples advice is other than to call TNVC, I dont need to be educated I need to be pointed in the right direction, not mentioning every single specification of a tube doesnt make me clueless, I work a lot with microscopes so I have idea about optics probably more than you, my knowledge is limited about tubes tho, and I thought I was clear I want the quality to be DSLR camera acceptable and very sensitive to light, not too sensitive so you go recommending filmless though


Ah, the old "smarter than you" thing. Got it. Keep being that guy.


BTW cj that phoropter is on it's way to me. If you can figure out a way I can get one of the risley prisms your way let me know. After I get the mount mocked up I'm gonna take it out to the AF base and have one of the life support guys collimate it for me.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:31:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 12:37:34 AM EST by KRANE]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
The cones are also far more sensitive to green, so by concentrating your light there, you'll see more ( and gain best use of your photopic vision as well - so will see more detail )
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Originally Posted By cj7hawk:
The cones are also far more sensitive to green, so by concentrating your light there, you'll see more ( and gain best use of your photopic vision as well - so will see more detail )


ha! here you are wrong cones can only produce black and white image :P that's why at night in dim conditions we cant see colors

the scope on the picture, how can it be legit, the magnifying scope has to be infront of the tube, what are you zooming in at when its behind the tube lol, pixels on the phosphor screen? makes no sense, tube has to be behind

A PVS-7B mount will work with them, but a PVS-7A mount will not.

wow for that thank you very much ill definitely keep it in mind, I know helmet may be better but its just not for me

Thank you a lot for your input it was helpful
So what i need to be looking for is good S/N, brightness, no blemishes. Time to call tvsc
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:34:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 12:34:56 AM EST by KRANE]
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Originally Posted By JohnnyC:

Ah, the old "smarter than you" thing. Got it. Keep being that guy.
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im not being that guy, you came onto me like im a shtf fag who thinks night vision is magic and doesnt know what he is talking about while i actually did my research to the best of my ability, and either that pissed you off or something else, but i took your opinion, take mine
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:57:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 1:01:18 AM EST by JohnnyC]
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Originally Posted By KRANE:


im not being that guy, you came onto me like im a shtf fag who thinks night vision is magic and doesnt know what he is talking about while i actually did my research to the best of my ability, and either that pissed you off or something else, but i took your opinion, take mine
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Originally Posted By KRANE:
Originally Posted By JohnnyC:

Ah, the old "smarter than you" thing. Got it. Keep being that guy.


im not being that guy, you came onto me like im a shtf fag who thinks night vision is magic and doesnt know what he is talking about while i actually did my research to the best of my ability, and either that pissed you off or something else, but i took your opinion, take mine



No, you are being that guy. You total lack of understanding about how a clip-on system works, yet your desire to speak completely out of your lane (btw instead of researching it you still think you're smarter than that picture) coupled with your "don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about" attitude from the get go, which you still hold on to even after being corrected by people who do actually know what they're talking about, just goes to show that.

You CLEARLY don't have a clue how the human eye perceives color, the fact that cj linked you to the wikipedia where it clearly explains how CONES perceive different wavelengths of light (that means color) yet continue to try and argue with him about it again proves the point. PS, I'll give you a hint, white light is not red, green, and blue. Cones are sensitive to spectral sensitivities, and they don't actually correspond to red, green, and blue.

You sound like a college freshman that took bio 101, had to do a lab or two, and now think you know how it all works.

You didn't do your research, you found some buzzwords that you thought would make you sound smart. The fact that you didn't even bother to research a clip-on and instead would try and tell me that I'm wrong just goes to show that you think you've got it all figured out.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 1:03:18 AM EST
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Originally Posted By KRANE:
the scope on the picture, how can it be legit, the magnifying scope has to be infront of the tube, what are you zooming in at when its behind the tube lol, pixels on the phosphor screen? makes no sense, tube has to be behind
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C'mon optics boy, give it a shot! Technical forum, find some technical information. It is completely legit. Prove me otherwise, since you seem to know so much about all this stuff.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 3:17:26 AM EST
Unfortunately, I don't think it will be helpful to anyone to provide any more responses.

I had felt that the op was possibly a new person who had come to this board with interest in night vision due to some tv show like the national geographic one recently, but, now it appears that the op may just be a trolling, a retread, or just someone not here for information.

If this person actually wanted a night vision device, and has said he has done all the research and such as he states, he would also have some specific ideas of how it will be purposed, rather than re-parroting things vaguely.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 4:12:33 AM EST
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Originally Posted By cm:
Unfortunately, I don't think it will be helpful to anyone to provide any more responses.

I had felt that the op was possibly a new person who had come to this board with interest in night vision due to some tv show like the national geographic one recently, but, now it appears that the op may just be a trolling, a retread, or just someone not here for information.

If this person actually wanted a night vision device, and has said he has done all the research and such as he states, he would also have some specific ideas of how it will be purposed, rather than re-parroting things vaguely.

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Was why I had no comment.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:00:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By cm:
Unfortunately, I don't think it will be helpful to anyone to provide any more responses.

I had felt that the op was possibly a new person who had come to this board with interest in night vision due to some tv show like the national geographic one recently, but, now it appears that the op may just be a trolling, a retread, or just someone not here for information.

If this person actually wanted a night vision device, and has said he has done all the research and such as he states, he would also have some specific ideas of how it will be purposed, rather than re-parroting things vaguely.

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shrewd arean't we, i dont have specific reasons to owning a night vision i will not be hunting bores, i will not use it for shtf, I will not use it for self defence unless s does htf, i want it as a toy and i have money for it, and it is my business and my business only and while i respect your opinion, keep any prickly opinions to yourself
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:02:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By JohnnyC:


C'mon optics boy, give it a shot! Technical forum, find some technical information. It is completely legit. Prove me otherwise, since you seem to know so much about all this stuff.
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Originally Posted By JohnnyC:
Originally Posted By KRANE:
the scope on the picture, how can it be legit, the magnifying scope has to be infront of the tube, what are you zooming in at when its behind the tube lol, pixels on the phosphor screen? makes no sense, tube has to be behind


C'mon optics boy, give it a shot! Technical forum, find some technical information. It is completely legit. Prove me otherwise, since you seem to know so much about all this stuff.

i dont know what planet you live on but with scope BEFORE night vision its like looking at your computer screen with binoculars, is it really so hard to get the concept? you are zooming in on phosphor screen asshole, how fucking retarded is that?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:37:08 AM EST
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Originally Posted By JohnnyC:

Ah, the old "smarter than you" thing. Got it. Keep being that guy.

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Also, someone politely asks him to not use the Lords name in vain, and he makes it a point to make sure to do it multiple times after . Sounds like NY is a good place for you, I am sure you fit right in with the huge population of liberals who want to spit in the face of anyone who is God fearing.

Troll on man, troll on

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 6:34:43 AM EST
This conversation is going nowhere and no longer has technical merit. I think it's probably time this thread was locked. To the OP - I think it is worth your time to read this thread.

You will learn much from it.

Regards
David
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:30:49 AM EST
OP, the one thing that you won't find in the well-written PVS-14 buyers' guide (which you may or may not have even read) is that nice night vision is not for temper tantrum throwing children like your posts suggest that you are. Nice move coming into the single greatest resource on the internet for night vision technical information and acting like an immature teenager. Save the language for your blog dude.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:48:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:04:40 AM EST
AN/PVS-24 Clip-on at TNVC


And with this, I'm punching out. Sorry for the thread turn Ed.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 2:57:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 2:59:08 PM EST by Dino1130]
So, keeping the thread on topic anyone want to discuss green vs. white phosphor ? I didn't know L3 got into the white phosphor until recently (attention was on ATN). I hear the L3 tubes are ungodly expensive for white phosphor and I still don't see where the need is.

Seems most every military is perfectly happy with green and then we have all those studies which shows the human eye can see more shades of green than any other color. Pure novelty ?

ETA : Have not heard of any ITT tubes wading into white phosphor...
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 4:49:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Dino1130:
So, keeping the thread on topic anyone want to discuss green vs. white phosphor ? I didn't know L3 got into the white phosphor until recently (attention was on ATN). I hear the L3 tubes are ungodly expensive for white phosphor and I still don't see where the need is.

Seems most every military is perfectly happy with green and then we have all those studies which shows the human eye can see more shades of green than any other color. Pure novelty ?

ETA : Have not heard of any ITT tubes wading into white phosphor...
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Everything I see on white phosphor says the s/n is typically lower, like in the 18-22 range. To me no way I would ever go with that, give me a pinnacle tube any day over that.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:12:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By fordkicksass:
OP, the one thing that you won't find in the well-written PVS-14 buyers' guide (which you may or may not have even read) is that nice night vision is not for temper tantrum throwing children like your posts suggest that you are. Nice move coming into the single greatest resource on the internet for night vision technical information and acting like an immature teenager. Save the language for your blog dude.
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seriously? is that what a generalization of a "typical 21 year old" is for old people nowadays? or is it jealousy?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:16:20 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JohnnyC:
AN/PVS-24 Clip-on at TNVC


And with this, I'm punching out. Sorry for the thread turn Ed.
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you realize you just proved yourself and everyone else wrong right? that clip on is not supposed to be used with any zooming optics, which is what is displayed on pictures to the link you gave me lol, on those pictures they use x1 sight, THAT's all, you have to be a complete and utter idiot not to be able to comprehend it, I feel like I am being trolled with this clip on B/S, you cant put a x8 zoom BEHIND the tube, you are just going to be zooming in on the phosphor screen, are some of you people seriously that retarded??
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:18:59 PM EST
Dude, you're going to get banned.

I'll put you on ignore until that happens.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:19:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Dino1130:
So, keeping the thread on topic anyone want to discuss green vs. white phosphor ? I didn't know L3 got into the white phosphor until recently (attention was on ATN). I hear the L3 tubes are ungodly expensive for white phosphor and I still don't see where the need is.

Seems most every military is perfectly happy with green and then we have all those studies which shows the human eye can see more shades of green than any other color. Pure novelty ?

ETA : Have not heard of any ITT tubes wading into white phosphor...
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question is why are they more expensive, they use similarly dangerous phosphor, the technique of applying it is probably the same, white phosphor could be a bit expensive and bit more toxic, but it does not jusify a $4500+ price tag KNV-PVS14-008
personal opinion, they will start switching soon to WP, it helps eye fatigue some say, i say in 5 years it might become a new standart
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:20:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By cchurchi:
Dude, you're going to get banned.

I'll put you on ignore until that happens.
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knock yourself out, he should get banned for provoking me
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:46:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 5:47:38 PM EST by Joe731]
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Originally Posted By KRANE:

you realize you just proved yourself and everyone else wrong right? that clip on is not supposed to be used with any zooming optics, which is what is displayed on pictures to the link you gave me lol, on those pictures they use x1 sight, THAT's all, you have to be a complete and utter idiot not to be able to comprehend it, I feel like I am being trolled with this clip on B/S, you cant put a x8 zoom BEHIND the tube, you are just going to be zooming in on the phosphor screen, are some of you people seriously that retarded??
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Originally Posted By KRANE:
Originally Posted By JohnnyC:
AN/PVS-24 Clip-on at TNVC


And with this, I'm punching out. Sorry for the thread turn Ed.

you realize you just proved yourself and everyone else wrong right? that clip on is not supposed to be used with any zooming optics, which is what is displayed on pictures to the link you gave me lol, on those pictures they use x1 sight, THAT's all, you have to be a complete and utter idiot not to be able to comprehend it, I feel like I am being trolled with this clip on B/S, you cant put a x8 zoom BEHIND the tube, you are just going to be zooming in on the phosphor screen, are some of you people seriously that retarded??


AN/PVS-24 Clip-on at TNVC
It’s optimal magnification range is between 4-6x, depending on the available ambient light. The best-case usage is with a 4x day scope. During our field evaluation, we were able to produce crisp images up to 6x with a variable magnification scope.


PVS-22
It is the original intermediate-distance clip on and will hold resolution, giving the shooter a clear image out to 12x depending on the day scope’s glass and available light. We have achieved this kind of resolution while using a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15×56. Although, the sweet spot for the best resolution is between 6-8X with most day scopes.


PVS-27
Its objective lens is one of the largest seen on an image intensifier, meaning it gathers a tremendous amount of light. We have found that the sharpest images are obtained while pairing the MUNS with a 15x scope. The ability to clip the unit in front of the already-zeroed day optic is extremely advantageous since it means a unit or department does not need to keep certain rifles dedicated to night operations.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 6:17:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KRANE:

you realize you just proved yourself and everyone else wrong right? that clip on is not supposed to be used with any zooming optics, which is what is displayed on pictures to the link you gave me lol, on those pictures they use x1 sight, THAT's all, you have to be a complete and utter idiot not to be able to comprehend it, I feel like I am being trolled with this clip on B/S, you cant put a x8 zoom BEHIND the tube, you are just going to be zooming in on the phosphor screen, are some of you people seriously that retarded??
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Originally Posted By KRANE:
Originally Posted By JohnnyC:
AN/PVS-24 Clip-on at TNVC


And with this, I'm punching out. Sorry for the thread turn Ed.

you realize you just proved yourself and everyone else wrong right? that clip on is not supposed to be used with any zooming optics, which is what is displayed on pictures to the link you gave me lol, on those pictures they use x1 sight, THAT's all, you have to be a complete and utter idiot not to be able to comprehend it, I feel like I am being trolled with this clip on B/S, you cant put a x8 zoom BEHIND the tube, you are just going to be zooming in on the phosphor screen, are some of you people seriously that retarded??


You're right, EVERYONE ELSE must be wrong Clip-on sights have been in use in front of magnified sights for years with fantastic results. Don't really even know what else to say here. This feels similar to when some idiot liberal is trying to convince me that guns are the problem not the people wielding them...
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 6:58:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 6:59:19 PM EST by LOKILOKI]
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Originally Posted By KRANE:

you realize you just proved yourself and everyone else wrong right? that clip on is not supposed to be used with any zooming optics, which is what is displayed on pictures to the link you gave me lol, on those pictures they use x1 sight, THAT's all, you have to be a complete and utter idiot not to be able to comprehend it, I feel like I am being trolled with this clip on B/S, you cant put a x8 zoom BEHIND the tube, you are just going to be zooming in on the phosphor screen, are some of you people seriously that retarded??
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Originally Posted By KRANE:
Originally Posted By JohnnyC:
AN/PVS-24 Clip-on at TNVC


And with this, I'm punching out. Sorry for the thread turn Ed.

you realize you just proved yourself and everyone else wrong right? that clip on is not supposed to be used with any zooming optics, which is what is displayed on pictures to the link you gave me lol, on those pictures they use x1 sight, THAT's all, you have to be a complete and utter idiot not to be able to comprehend it, I feel like I am being trolled with this clip on B/S, you cant put a x8 zoom BEHIND the tube, you are just going to be zooming in on the phosphor screen, are some of you people seriously that retarded??

This is a technical forum, where non useful discussion and insults usually end abruptly in a thread/account lock. Move to general discussion or refrain from posting inflammatory comments about the seasoned membership.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:51:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:05:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:

He's done.
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Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Originally Posted By LOKILOKI:
This is a technical forum, where non useful discussion and insults usually end abruptly in a thread/account lock. Move to general discussion or refrain from posting inflammatory comments about the seasoned membership.

He's done.

Why am I not terribly surprised.Good kill.
Link Posted: 10/30/2013 4:37:34 AM EST
1+ On that!

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Originally Posted By LOKILOKI:

Why am I not terribly surprised.Good kill.
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Originally Posted By LOKILOKI:
Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Originally Posted By LOKILOKI:
This is a technical forum, where non useful discussion and insults usually end abruptly in a thread/account lock. Move to general discussion or refrain from posting inflammatory comments about the seasoned membership.

He's done.

Why am I not terribly surprised.Good kill.

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