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Posted: 11/8/2008 12:18:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2008 12:18:42 PM EDT by ns2002]
I saw a Finnish Mosin Nagant, SA markings, VKT and I believe it was 1941 dated.  The thing that was strange to me is that the stocks wood was quite pale in color (almost like beechnut), unlike the traditional "tiger striped" type finishes.  Does anyone know anything about why the wood and finish was such a light color?
Link Posted: 11/8/2008 12:30:01 PM EDT
I have never seen a Finn in person but hear that they are lighter colored stocks.  I have heard many times that Finns are the most accurate.  I only have Russian Izzy.

Link Posted: 11/8/2008 2:03:30 PM EDT
Almost every Finn I've ever seen has been almost light a standard Mosin color, but there are "tiger" stripes lightened making a very appealing finish.  However, this was without a doubt the lightest colors I've ever seen.  It was every bit as light colored as my Swiss K-31.
Link Posted: 11/8/2008 7:05:55 PM EDT
I've seen a light colored M39 or two, not sure if it was from a previous owner refinishing the stock or not.
Link Posted: 11/8/2008 7:12:28 PM EDT
The Finns used arctic birch. Some of the wood they used was furniture grade that was "quilted". Its a flashy grade of arctic birch because some of the stock making outfits where the wood was procured from were furniture companies. This is why there's a higher number of really pretty Finn stocks over Russian which tend to be ordinary plain birch. Some Finn wood is stunning... for arctic birch.

Also, Finn Mosins often were fitted with new stocks & handguards that were made during WW2 so they're not as old and ratty as 100 yr old Russian stocks that have been stained. The Finns only oiled their wood, they didn't stain it.

Flashy arctic birch Finn Mosins

Dutch
Link Posted: 11/8/2008 9:12:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2008 9:16:40 PM EDT by ns2002]
Thanks, it looked a lot like the second from the top, just a tad bit lighter.  It was beautiful wood for sure.

ETA:  Just out of curiosity, what do you believe is the going rate for a Finnish M39, VKT with a good bore, 1941 era?  I want to see if I missed out on a good deal .  The bolt matched the receiver, and I don't remember any markings on the bottom of the mag plate.
Link Posted: 11/9/2008 4:23:15 AM EDT
Going rate is easily $250-350 to start around here, depanding on condition, year, ect.

You do not see many at $250 anymore, either.
Link Posted: 11/9/2008 6:39:40 AM EDT
The lowest price locally is around $347and there are very few available.  Gunbroker sometimes has very good prices but prices there are usually pretty high and getting higher.  I doubt if they'll ever be any cheaper than they are now.  GUNSANDAMMO site always has several and most of theprices are reasonable.  The site also lists a few antique models that can be shipped to you directly.  The ones with the wartime stock (rounded finger joints) seem to be favored more by collectors.  I have both.  I have 3 that are in new condition with postwar stocks that are beautiful.  If you want one.....now is the time to buy unless prices have already shot up since the election.
Link Posted: 11/9/2008 11:44:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ns2002:
Thanks, it looked a lot like the second from the top, just a tad bit lighter.  It was beautiful wood for sure.

ETA:  Just out of curiosity, what do you believe is the going rate for a Finnish M39, VKT with a good bore, 1941 era?  I want to see if I missed out on a good deal .  The bolt matched the receiver, and I don't remember any markings on the bottom of the mag plate.


I don't really follow m/39 price trends. I've owned 5 or 6, have one now but I have vivid memory of 3/fer $100 from Century about 12 years ago so I never really put a lot of collectible worth to the m/39. There are alot of them around and there are distinct variations as to manufacturers and condition. I'm just about to buy a Finn 91/30 made in 1943 at Woodpecker Rapids. Fresh rebuild, unissued, unfired for $225. Very nice rifles, very accurate shooters. Don't think the m/39 is the only worthy Finn. Its not.

Dutch
Link Posted: 11/11/2008 1:36:04 PM EDT
Usually light-colored Finn rifle stocks are new post-war refurb replacements. They generally have only a light oil finish and feel dry to the touch.

Either that or or they've been refinished stateside...

WWII Finn stocks (with exceptions, of course) were often indeed stained, though the type of stain and method it was applied are not known with any kind of certainty. My pet theory lately is pine tar, but who knows.

Link Posted: 11/11/2008 4:14:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/11/2008 4:19:24 PM EDT by dillonivik]
I just got a 1942 Dated M39 Valmet for $265 OTD. It has about 40% blueing, perfect bore and perfect wood (has the SAKO stamp on the butt and the splice is the type that a rifle from the 30-40s should have too).
Link Posted: 11/11/2008 5:15:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By skywarp989:
Usually light-colored Finn rifle stocks are new post-war refurb replacements. They generally have only a light oil finish and feel dry to the touch.

Either that or or they've been refinished stateside...

WWII Finn stocks (with exceptions, of course) were often indeed stained, though the type of stain and method it was applied are not known with any kind of certainty. My pet theory lately is pine tar, but who knows.



Red stain as Dutch said is a Soviet thing. A 2 piece stock is the norm on a Finn, M39. I bought a Finn capture 1939 91/30 that has an original Russian stock that the Finn's refinished. No more red, but some great wood. BTW, it would grade as Excellent. Perfect and matching w/ Double SA stamps. The brass hardware is a nice +. jp

Link Posted: 11/11/2008 7:02:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jpattersonnh:
Originally Posted By skywarp989:
Usually light-colored Finn rifle stocks are new post-war refurb replacements. They generally have only a light oil finish and feel dry to the touch.

Either that or or they've been refinished stateside...

WWII Finn stocks (with exceptions, of course) were often indeed stained, though the type of stain and method it was applied are not known with any kind of certainty. My pet theory lately is pine tar, but who knows.



Red stain as Dutch said is a Soviet thing. A 2 piece stock is the norm on a Finn, M39. I bought a Finn capture 1939 91/30 that has an original Russian stock that the Finn's refinished. No more red, but some great wood. BTW, it would grade as Excellent. Perfect and matching w/ Double SA stamps. The brass hardware is a nice +. jp



The Soviets did not use red stain, but red shellac, which is a topical finish. Stain is a coloration applied to the wood before the finishing.

Link Posted: 11/13/2008 3:35:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2008 3:47:40 PM EDT by ns2002]
Originally Posted By skywarp989:
Usually light-colored Finn rifle stocks are new post-war refurb replacements. They generally have only a light oil finish and feel dry to the touch.

Either that or or they've been refinished stateside...

WWII Finn stocks (with exceptions, of course) were often indeed stained, though the type of stain and method it was applied are not known with any kind of certainty. My pet theory lately is pine tar, but who knows.




I think this was the case.  The wood felt 100 percent dry to the touch and was probably either not oiled or just a very light coat.  The wood looked in great condition.  It still showed age but overall the rifle was in great shape.

The selling price for it was 350 though, so I did not go for it at the time as I simply did not know the going rate of these rifles.  I had previously bought a K-31 from the same guys though for the typical going rates of K-31's so I knew it wouldn't be too far off target.


ETA:  Any advice?  I believe these guys will be at the gunshow in my area this week and they will bring the rifle again.  Should I go for it?
Link Posted: 11/13/2008 8:19:52 PM EDT
Well ultimately the rifle is worth what ever you are willing to pay for it. That said i would offer em like $260 and see if you can barter them down at all...
Link Posted: 11/15/2008 8:50:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 7:37:29 AM EDT by opositive]
m39's have 2 piece stocks.  wartime stocks have round finger joints, and the post war stocks have square finger joints.  the postwar stocks i have had ended up as a rather uniform caramel color after oiling.  most of my wartime stocks are dark amber and black.  however, a wartime stock i am working on now is remaining  very light after a week (so far) of mostly linseed oil and a little tung oil––this should be one of my prettiest stocks when i am done.

ps––take a look at gunsnammo.com (pat burns' site) and empirearms.com to get an idea of price/condition/appearance.

edit––here are work in progress pic and before pic.  i think that the lighter stock will end up a light gold color and that the darker straight stock will end up as a light amber.  the stocks are shiny since i put a light coat of tung on this morning.

Link Posted: 11/17/2008 5:34:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2008 5:42:12 AM EDT by jpattersonnh]
I stand corrected on the "stain"

Edit, M27's also have 2 piece stocks.
Link Posted: 11/17/2008 5:11:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By opositive:
m39's have 2 piece stocks.  wartime stocks have round finger joints, and the post war stocks have square finger joints.  the postwar stocks i have had ended up as a rather uniform caramel color after oiling.  most of my wartime stocks are dark amber and black.  however, a wartime stock i am working on now is remaining  very light after a week (so far) of mostly linseed oil and a little tung oil––this should be one of my prettiest stocks when i am done.

ps––take a look at gunsnammo.com (pat burns' site) and empirearms.com to get an idea of price/condition/appearance.

edit––here are work in progress pic and before pic.  i think that the lighter stock will end up a light gold color and that the darker straight stock will end up as a light amber.  the stocks are shiny since i put a light coat of tung on this morning.

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo152/opositivebucket/m39ltsmall.jpg?t=1226852418http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo152/opositivebucket/drym391903small.jpg?t=1226852587


Why on God's green earth are you refinishing wartime Finnish riflestocks? Especially a straight stock! Good gravy... You know they made less than 7000 of those, right?  Way to kill 50% of your rifles' value.

Link Posted: 11/18/2008 12:36:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2008 5:16:59 PM EDT by opositive]
that is hand rubbed boiled linseed oil and pure tung oil from the "pure milk paint company" after removing the cosmo with mineral sprits/blo and sitting in my hot garage over the summer.  nothing invasive––no sanding, staining, shellac, varnish... all i did was clean them and rub them with oil. all the markings are intact.  the stocks look shiny because they are still wet and in the sun.  they are both unusually light, though.
Link Posted: 11/18/2008 3:17:33 PM EDT
Two other common Finn stock treatments are pine tar and potassium permanganate.
Link Posted: 11/18/2008 3:26:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Insider:
Two other common Finn stock treatments are pine tar and potassium permanganate.


+1 These two methods produce the most historically correct finish.

Dutch
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 5:03:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 5:06:22 PM EDT by skywarp989]
Originally Posted By opositive:
that is hand rubbed boiled linseed oil and pure tung oil from the "pure milk paint company" after removing the cosmo with mineral sprits/blo and sitting in my hot garage over the summer.  nothing invasive––no sanding, staining, shellac, varnish... all i did was clean them and rub them with oil. all the markings are intact.  the stocks look shiny because they are still wet and in the sun.  they are both unusually light, though.


You applied a historically incorrect permanent topical finish –– "refinished" them. Not as bad as sanding and tru-oiling, sure, but it turns off serious Finn rifle collectors just as much as if you painted them hot pink.

Altering the original finish is never necessary, and rarely a good idea, on rifles as collectible as these. Production (let alone import) numbers on these is FAR lower than most Nazi, Japanese, and USGI rifles out there, yet I bet you wouldn't do this to a bringback k98, which I guarantee you are far more common (just not currently available on the open market).
Originally Posted By Dutch51:
Originally Posted By The_Insider:
Two other common Finn stock treatments are pine tar and potassium permanganate.


+1 These two methods produce the most historically correct finish.

Dutch


I wouldn't say that, quite.

Finnish military use of pine tar and/or potassium permanganate has never been actually documented. They do, however, produce the most authentic appearance when used in the restoration of otherwise refinished Finn rifle stocks. Also, both are a colorant, not a finish –– finishes on Finn riflestocks ranged from varnish to linseed oil/wax (etc.) depending on who was making the stocks and when (and add to that than Civil Guard men "owned" their rifles and could do whatever to them), and documentation stating any Finn wood finish is virtually non-existent. You will get lots of info off the net about it, but it's mostly wrong, conjecture, or assumption.

For the best info anywhere on Finn and Soviet/Russian rifles, you need to check out gunboards.com. There are other Mosin sites, but they mostly just spread bad info. The premier collectors and experts (worldwide, literally the "guys who wrote the books") on the material are present at gunboards.
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